Off roster handguns- Probation, arson investigators, DA, etc..

[RollingCode3]

(4) The sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to,
or purchased by, the Department of Justice, a police department, a
sheriff's official, a marshal's office, the Department of Corrections
and Rehabilitation, the California Highway Patrol, any district
attorney's office, any federal law enforcement agency, or the
military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for
use in the discharge of their official duties. This section does not
prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies
of a handgun.

[omgwtfbbq]

Hmm. This is news to me. I talked to the Norcal Proforce guy last week at a Glock Armorers course (Mike I think his name is) and he said nothing about it.

If that's the case it's completely ridiculous.

EDIT:

After speaking with my Deputy Chief (small dept):

32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
(1) The manufacture in this state, or importation into this state,
of a prototype handgun when the manufacture or importation is for
the sole purpose of allowing an independent laboratory certified by
the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 32010 to conduct an
independent test to determine whether that handgun is prohibited by
Sections 31900 to 32110, inclusive, and, if not, allowing the
department to add the firearm to the roster of handguns that may be
sold in this state pursuant to Section 32015.
(2) The importation or lending of a handgun by employees or
authorized agents of entities determining whether the weapon is
prohibited by this section.
(3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section
478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(4) The sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to,
or purchased by, the Department of Justice, a police department, a
sheriff's official, a marshal's office, the Department of Corrections
and Rehabilitation, the California Highway Patrol, any district
attorney's office, any federal law enforcement agency, or the
military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for
use in the discharge of their official duties. This section does not
prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies
of a handgun.
(c) Violations of subdivision (a) are cumulative with respect to
each handgun and shall not be construed as restricting the
application of any other law. However, an act or omission punishable
in different ways by this section and other provisions of law shall
not be punished under more than one provision, but the penalty to be
imposed shall be determined as set forth in Section 654.

Apparently the rationale here is that since Fire Departments and Probation department are not specifically named in the code section they don't apply. MY DC said he contacted CADOJBOF back in 2011 about this and was told their opinion at the time was the code is "ambiguous" and that some FFLs will sell off-roster to sworn officers not employed by the agencies specifically named in the code section and some won't.

[Patfishandshoot]

I was at Proforce the other day and can also confirm as to hearing the new interpretation from Cal DOJ as well. I was told this impacts any sworn officer who is not a member of an agency type SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the penal code (by type and/or name) can no longer purchase off roster handguns. And the only ones listed by name are CDCR, CA DOJ and CHP. So I guess this will impact DMV, ABC, all probation officers (regardless of county) all arson investigators, and the plethora of investigators/peace officers for different city, county and state entities (that aren't an actual police department)??? This will have a big impact on officers and investigators who fall under the new ruling.

Federal LEO's, CA DOJ agents, "police officers" (I'm assuming anyone who falls under 830.1), CHP, Sheriffs, DA investigators, and CDCR are still able to buy off-roster handguns under this revised interpretation.

Since it is the end of the year, it will take until 2017 for legislation to pass and go into effect to fix this unless someone in Sacramento changes their mind.

[veeklog]

I was at Proforce the other day and can also confirm as to hearing the new interpretation from Cal DOJ as well. I was told this impacts any sworn officer who is not a member of an agency type SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the penal code can no longer purchase off roster handguns. And the only ones listed by name are CDCR, CA DOJ and CHP. So I guess this will impact DMV, ABC, all probation officers (regardless of county) all arson investigators, and the plethora of investigators/peace officers for different city, county and state entities (that aren't an actual police department)??? This will have a big impact on officers and investigators who fall under the new ruling.

Federal LEO's, CA DOJ agents, "police officers" (I'm assuming anyone who falls under 830.1), CHP, Sheriffs, DA investigators, and CDCR are still able to buy off-roster handguns under this revised interpretation.

Since it is the end of the year, it will take until 2017 for legislation to pass and go into effect to fix this unless someone in Sacramento changes their mind.

That blows; not only is it a PITA to do any worthwhile work in this state, but now these guys are handcuffed from buying equipment needed to perform the job. I am glad I could still buy off roster firearms because the Glock 19 was approved for carry again with my agency, and now have to look for a Blue Label Glock Gen 4. Anyone know if Adamson is Los Alamitos has Blue Label Glocks for sale? Besides Proforce, anyone else in the OC or LA sell Blue Label Glocks?

[Patfishandshoot]

Hopefully they will get this fixed quick. But I recall when federal agents had this exact same issue a few years ago Sacramento would not back down and it required a change in the law (which took place). Federal LEO's along with police, sheriffs, DA, CHP CA DOJ and CDCR are specifically named in the penal code, so they are good to go for off-roster handguns, but all of the rest are unfortunately out of luck right now from what I'm hearing. The number of peace officers this impacts is really high. Off the top of my head in effects people ranging from county welfare fraud investigators, probation, arson, coroner and a ton of various investigators/peace officers who work for the state (DMV, ABC, Toxic Substances, Lottery, Insurance, FTB, you name it...).

As for where else to get Blue Label Glocks, you might want to try Addax Tactical out in the valley. They are a Calguns vendor and I know another LEO who bought a Gen4 Glock from them recently and he was very happy with their level of service.

[ke6guj]

That blows; not only is it a PITA to do any worthwhile work in this state, but now these guys are handcuffed from buying equipment needed to perform the job.

Hopefully they will get this fixed quick. But I recall when federal agents had this exact same issue a few years ago Sacramento would not back down and it required a change in the law (which took place). Federal LEO's along with police, sheriffs, DA, CHP CA DOJ and CDCR are specifically named in the penal code, so they are good to go for off-roster handguns, but all of the rest are unfortunately out of luck right now from what I'm hearing. The number of peace officers this impacts is really high. Off the top of my head in effects people ranging from county welfare fraud investigators, probation, arson, coroner and a ton of various investigators/peace officers who work for the state (DMV, ABC, Toxic Substances, Lottery, Insurance, FTB, you name it...).

shouldn't those LEOs be issued their firearm by the agency? or are there agencies that require LEOs to purchase their own firearm?

I understand the "want" but what "need" is there for an LEO to buy an off-roster handgun when there are usually on-roster equivalents for most situations.


I understand the dilema this puts those LEOs in that want a "better" option, but the solution is to lobby to toss the roster, not to fix their exemption.

[omgwtfbbq]

shouldn't those LEOs be issued their firearm by the agency? or are there agencies that require LEOs to purchase their own firearm?

I understand the "want" but what "need" is there for an LEO to buy an off-roster handgun when there are usually on-roster equivalents for most situations.


I understand the dilema this puts those LEOs in that want a "better" option, but the solution is to lobby to toss the roster, not to fix their exemption.

<Bolded for Truth>


In regard to questions of agency issuance, no two agencies follow exactly the same policy. Some allow personal weapons to be carried on duty (in-lieu policies). Some are strictly issued by agency and others provide allowances or reimbursements for personal purchase or approved pistols.

Simple fact is, yes it sucks and doesn't make sense if you interpret the code using the spirit of the law, but the roster is a de facto ban and we should ultimately should be fighting to have it removed from the books entirely.

[Patfishandshoot]

Unfortunately from speaking with some of the sworn investigators I know with the lesser known state investigative agencies their unions don't have much clout and getting this changed, even at the level to put things back to the way it was a month ago might be an uphill battle especially in today's political climate. Getting the roster completely eliminated in this state seems about a likely as gas selling at your local station for 99 cents a gallon. Baby steps I guess...

[oneill45]

Ive got a great idea for anyone who is turned away at proforce from purchasing off roster handguns.... try another dealer. proforce can choose to approve or deny a sale to anyone regardless of what any email says, in the spirit or letter of the law. I just made another off roster purchase today from another dealer. NO ISSUES.

[RollingCode3]

Ive got a great idea for anyone who is turned away at proforce from purchasing off roster handguns.... try another dealer. proforce can choose to approve or deny a sale to anyone regardless of what any email says, in the spirit or letter of the law. I just made another off roster purchase today from another dealer. NO ISSUES.

It is a matter of time before the DOJ send out the memo.

[oneill45]

YES, but as for right now... the doj website does not state this at all. And as of today other dealers are still able to sell offroster as I have just made an off roster purchase today

[Ubermcoupe]

Seems Sacramento Gun Club had a similar experience recently (posted in the FFL section):

Folks,

We just received notice from CA DOJ that they do not acknowledge retired annuitants as peace officers and that they are not exempt from the roster. Their reasoning behind it is that the RA status can be revoked at any time. This interpretation was allegedly from DOJ's legal department.

Our GM is trying to get DOJ to place this in writing and I will know more as I'm advised. Have any of you received this interpretation as of late? Their logic makes no sense, as usual.


EDIT: 12/22/15

Ok, it appears that the root of the DOJ reasoning is PC 32000(b)(4):

32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
(4) The sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to,
or purchased by, the Department of Justice, a police department, a
sheriff's official, a marshal's office, the Department of Corrections
and Rehabilitation, the California Highway Patrol, any district
attorney's office, any federal law enforcement agency, or the
military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for
use in the discharge of their official duties. This section does not
prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies
of a handgun.

DOJ is splitting hairs on which LEOs are roster exempt. Essentially anyone who is not a sworn member of these specific agencies isn't roster exempt. This excludes county probations, park rangers, any other county or state LEOs, etc. . . from purchasing "unsafe" pistols. DOJ did not clarify on RAs that returned as ROs, however ROs are sworn members of these listed agencies.

[oneill45]

just had an FFL contact DOJ today... and guess what. They say they never sent out any email and there is no existing changes to the current exemption. All you need is your dept issue ID to purchase your off roster firearm. Turns out proforce and this mystery emailer are making up their own rules. therefore... dont shop at proforce.

[Patfishandshoot]

just had an FFL contact DOJ today... and guess what. They say they never sent out any email and there is no existing changes to the current exemption. All you need is your dept issue ID to purchase your off roster firearm. Turns out proforce and this mystery emailer are making up their own rules. therefore... dont shop at proforce.

Great news! Although it makes me wonder where Proforce is getting their info??? IMHO the guys at All State Police Equipment (Alan and Drew) in Pomona are always the most up to date on the gun laws/changes affecting LEO's. I was going to suggest someone reach out to them for the 411 as to whether this new interpretation is truth or fiction.

[roostersgt]

Just so everyone is aware, many out of state "large" gun dealers only recognize CHP, City Police and County Deputy sheriff's as those they will sell off list firearms to. Check PSA's website, and many others. I'm sure they're getting their "store policy" direction from somewhere in our states many departments (DOJ). Dealt with this last year.