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50-bmg..... Legalities ????

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  • #16
    RickD427
    CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
    CGN Contributor - Lifetime
    • Jan 2007
    • 9243

    A lot of bad information is contained in this thread. Lets go back and look at the specific statutes.

    In the olden days, only .50 BMG "Rifles" were banned. Weapons, other than "Rifles" that fired the .50 BMG cartridge, and that were not otherwise illegal, were perfectly fine to use and possess. The Semi-Auto version of the Browning M2 being a good example of such a legal firearm. The key here is a rifle is a weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder (refer to Penal Code section 17090).

    But that changed with amendments to Penal Code section 30515 expanding the definition of an "Assault Weapon." In 2020, as a result of SB 118, semi-automatic, centerfire weapons other than rifles, pistols and shotguns that have listed features were added as "Assault Weapons." A heat protecting shroud, and the ability to accept a magazine outside of the handgrip are among these features. The M2 has such a shroud (I've heard arguments that it isn't a shroud because the military does not use that nomenclature, but when you look at the location of the shroud in relation to the barrel, it meets California's statutory definition, and that's what counts). California also defines "Magazine" as any ammunition feeding device. The belt of an M2 is therefore a "Magazine" within the statute, and it is located outside of the handgrip.

    That makes the Semi-Auto Browning M2 illegal, not as a .50BMG "Rifle", but as an "Assault Weapon."

    Some folks have suggested that the Semi-Auto M2 could be made legal by converting the weapon such that the belt is made a "Fixed" magazine. Those proposals typically involve changing the cover latch such that a tool is required to open the over, and then using a fixed length belt of no more than 10 rounds. But that don't work either. The definition of "Fixed" magazine is such that a tool is required to REMOVE the magazine, not that a tool is required to mount a magazine. Such an effort would not produce a "Fixed" magazine. As a test - fire all ten rounds from such a magazine, then look to see where the magazine went (remember California's definition - the "magazine" is the belt). If the magazine is still in the weapon such a tool is needed to remove it, you're OK. If the pieces of the magazine are on the ground, then they were removed without a tool and you're outta luck. California also makes it very difficult to make a 10 round "Magazine" using a disintegrating link belt. The problem is that a "Large Capacity Magazine" is defined as one having the "Capacity" to hold more than 10 rounds. You can make up a 10 round magazine using disintegrating links, but as long as you have the capacity to add additional links, your 10 round (or 5 round, or even a 2 round) belt is still a "Large Capacity Magazine."
    Last edited by RickD427; 02-14-2025, 11:51 AM.
    If you build a man a fire, you'll keep him warm for the evening. If you set a man on fire, you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.

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    • #17
      billyjoblack
      Member
      • Jul 2006
      • 334

      Originally posted by RickD427
      A lot of bad information is contained in this thread. Lets go back and look at the specific statutes.

      In the olden days, only .50 BMG "Rifles" were banned. Weapons, other than "Rifles" that fired the .50 BMG cartridge, and that were not otherwise illegal, were perfectly fine to use and possess. The Semi-Auto version of the Browning M2 being a good example of such a legal firearm. The key here is a rifle is a weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder (refer to Penal Code section 17090).

      But that changed with amendments to Penal Code section 30515 expanding the definition of an "Assault Weapon." In 2020, as a result of SB 118, semi-automatic, centerfire weapons other than rifles, pistols and shotguns that have listed features were added as "Assault Weapons." A heat protecting shroud, and the ability to accept a magazine outside of the handgrip are among these features. The M2 has such a shroud (I've heard arguments that it isn't a shroud because the military does not use that nomenclature, but when you look at the location of the shroud in relation to the barrel, it meets California's statutory definition, and that's what counts). California also defines "Magazine" as any ammunition feeding device. The belt of an M2 is therefore a "Magazine" within the statute, and it is located outside of the handgrip.

      That makes the Semi-Auto Browning M2 illegal, not as a .50BMG "Rifle", but as an "Assault Weapon."

      Some folks have suggested that the Semi-Auto M2 could be made legal by converting the weapon such that the belt is made a "Fixed" magazine. Those proposals typically involve changing the cover latch such that a tool is required to open the over, and then using a fixed length belt of no more than 10 rounds. But that don't work either. The definition of "Fixed" magazine is such that a tool is required to REMOVE the magazine, not that a tool is required to mount a magazine. Such an effort would not produce a "Fixed" magazine. As a test - fire all ten rounds from such a magazine, then look to see where the magazine went (remember California's definition - the "magazine" is the belt). If the magazine is still in the weapon such a tool is needed to remove it, you're OK. If the pieces of the magazine are on the ground, then they were removed without a tool and you're outta luck. California also makes it very difficult to make a 10 round "Magazine" using a disintegrating link belt. The problem is that a "Large Capacity Magazine" is defined as one having the "Capacity" to hold more than 10 rounds. You can make up a 10 round magazine using disintegrating links, but as long as you have the capacity to add additional links, your 10 round (or 5 round, or even a 2 round) belt is still a "Large Capacity Magazine."
      Thanks... So if you have fixed links...rpd,pkm,sg43...ect... And it takes a tool to remove the top cover but still have the Spade grips on then. That gun is okay?... Even though it's not a rifle by definition because it can't be shouldered?

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      • #18
        billyjoblack
        Member
        • Jul 2006
        • 334

        I know the original thread was about the M2, but I'd like to move away from that for a second and focus on the SG43..., BELT FED, SPADE GRIPS, AND NON-DISINTEGRATING LINKS... How does that fit into the BS laws in California nowadays?.. I was under the impression that because it's not a rifle pistol or shotgun then it was a AOW.. and would be illegal by that alone... But putting a stock on it and making it like a rpd, pkm, 1919a6... Would bring it back into legal status.... All these laws are going to make my head explode.

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        • #19
          RickD427
          CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
          CGN Contributor - Lifetime
          • Jan 2007
          • 9243

          Originally posted by billyjoblack

          Thanks... So if you have fixed links...rpd,pkm,sg43...ect... And it takes a tool to remove the top cover but still have the Spade grips on then. That gun is okay?... Even though it's not a rifle by definition because it can't be shouldered?
          I don't have any experience with fixed links. My only machine gun experience is with the M2, M19 and M16. If the fixed link belt that you describe functioned such that the belt remained in the weapon when the last round was fired, and that disassembly of the action were needed to remove the belt, then you would have a "fixed" magazine and that would place the weapon outside of "Assault Weapon" statute. Since the M2 cannot be fired from shoulder, it is already outside the scope of the ".50 BMG Rifle" statute

          I should probably clarify my earlier comment about needing a tool to remove the magazine, that's actually a throwback to an early version of the "Assault Weapon" statute. The current language requires 'Disassembly" of the action. There isn't much case law clarifying what that means, but I have to think that using a tool to open the cover of an M2 would suffice.

          But if the fixed belt is expended from the weapon at the conclusion of firing, then it's not a "Fixed Magazine."
          If you build a man a fire, you'll keep him warm for the evening. If you set a man on fire, you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.

          Comment

          • #20
            RickD427
            CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
            CGN Contributor - Lifetime
            • Jan 2007
            • 9243

            Originally posted by billyjoblack
            I know the original thread was about the M2, but I'd like to move away from that for a second and focus on the SG43..., BELT FED, SPADE GRIPS, AND NON-DISINTEGRATING LINKS... How does that fit into the BS laws in California nowadays?.. I was under the impression that because it's not a rifle pistol or shotgun then it was a AOW.. and would be illegal by that alone... But putting a stock on it and making it like a rpd, pkm, 1919a6... Would bring it back into legal status.... All these laws are going to make my head explode.
            I don't see the SG43 as being a federally-defined AOW due to the fact that it does not satisfy the "Concealable upon the person" element of an AOW.
            If you build a man a fire, you'll keep him warm for the evening. If you set a man on fire, you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.

            Comment

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