How to physically transfer firearms into a trust

[D-FORCE]

How do I physically transfer a CA firearm registered in my name into a trust? What paperwork needs to be filed with CA or DOJ?

Or does the state of CA not really have the ability to place that legally owned non-NFA firearm into a trust because it has to be a person at all times? Does the trust just serve as a document that dictates who can inherit my guns? If the later what is the point of having a Gun Trust?

The idea is to make it easy for my children to inherit guns but is it even possible in CA to create a "shared ownership." Meaning three qualified children when of age meeting qualified person requirements could technically have three shared ownership interest of the firearms that they pass back and forth?

Once I am deceased who really owns the firearm in CA if I am never able to recognize the firearm is owned by the trust?

[whatmeworry]

Interesting question. Bookmarked for my reference.

[D-FORCE]

Attorney's haven't really answered me

When asking my attorneys, they gave me a response of just do the same paperwork when you bought the gun... Very unimpressed with that naive answer... they are supposed to be the legal gurus??

[acourvil]

I'm assuming you are talking about a living trust. You state it as property of the trust in the trust docs; when you die, the executor/trustee does the transfer. While you are alive, you continue to treat it as your personal property. For property like real estate, cars, etc. you actually do paperwork to change the title, but that isn't possible with firearms in CA.

[Quiet]

AFAIK...

There is no shared or joint ownership for being listed/owned by a trust.
Being listed/owned by a trust simply provides exemptions under certain circumstances that allows transfer without the use of a CA FFL dealer. [PC 27920(a)]


Firearms are legally owned by the trustee that placed the firearms on the trust.
Under specific conditions, firearms that are placed on the trust are granted an exemption that allows their transfer to another trustee of the trust without the use of a CA FFL dealer.
Whichever trustee that submits the required reports for the transfer, then become the legal owner of the firearms.

RAWs are prohibited from being owned by a trust. [PC 16970(b)]



Penal Code 16960
As used in Article 1 (commencing with Section 26500) of Chapter 1 of Division 6 of Title 4, “operation of law” includes, but is not limited to, any of the following:
(e) A trustee in bankruptcy performing the duties of a trustee, if the bankruptcy estate includes a firearm.
(j) The trustee of a trust that includes a firearm and that was part of a will that created the trust.
(n) The trustee of a trust that includes a firearm that is under court supervision.

Penal Code 27920
(a) Section 27545 does not apply to a person who takes title or possession of a firearm by operation of law if the person is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm and all of the following conditions are met:
(1) If the person taking title or possession is neither a levying officer as defined in Section 481.140, 511.060, or 680.260 of the Code of Civil Procedure, nor a person who is receiving that firearm pursuant to subdivision (g), (h), (i), (j), (l), or (q) of Section 16990, the person shall, within 30 days of taking possession, submit a report to the Department of Justice, in a manner prescribed by the department, that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title or possession was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question.
(4) Where the person receiving title or possession of the firearm is a person described in subdivision (j) of Section 16990, on the date that the person is delivered the firearm, the name and other information concerning the person taking possession of the firearm, how title or possession of the firearm was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm by make, model, serial number, and other identifying characteristics shall be entered into the AFS via the CLETS by the law enforcement or state agency that transferred or delivered the firearm, provided, however, that if the firearm is not a handgun and does not have a serial number, identification number, or identification mark assigned to it, that fact shall be noted in AFS. An agency without access to AFS shall arrange with the sheriff of the county in which the agency is located to input this information via this system. In addition, that law enforcement agency shall not deliver the firearm to the person referred to in this subdivision unless, prior to the delivery of the firearm, the person presents proof to the agency that the person is the holder of a valid firearm safety certificate, except that in the case of a handgun, a valid unexpired handgun safety certificate may be presented.

[G-forceJunkie]

So guns places in a living trust, can you just say "all firearms" or do they each have to be spelled out, serial numbers, etc?

[Librarian]

So guns places in a living trust, can you just say "all firearms" or do they each have to be spelled out, serial numbers, etc?

Can't speak to CA law, but for Oregon it's list them in detail; that's because the list appears as 'Schedule B', which I can change at whim. I might, for example, change how I want things to go when my grandson gets to 18.

[D-FORCE]

Can't speak to CA law, but for Oregon it's list them in detail; that's because the list appears as 'Schedule B', which I can change at whim. I might, for example, change how I want things to go when my grandson gets to 18.

This is accurate in CA also. I think it is best to be detailed in make and serial so that when passed to the beneficiary info is all right there and no questions for someone to interpret.

The challenge I have is off roster CA handguns. I don't know who to assign those to as of now based on where beneficiaries will be living decades from now after my death. Because those handguns should stay and remain in CA where they hold their most value. So I guess I list those down but wait as far out into the future to assign those to beneficiaries when I know where they are living.

[D-FORCE]

I'm assuming you are talking about a living trust. You state it as property of the trust in the trust docs; when you die, the executor/trustee does the transfer. While you are alive, you continue to treat it as your personal property. For property like real estate, cars, etc. you actually do paperwork to change the title, but that isn't possible with firearms in CA.

Yes, it is a living trust and I am the "Grantor." However, I will have three Trustees setup managing the children's interest until they become trustees at age 25. Then after my death the kids become beneficiary trustees.

Where I am running into trouble is my attorneys have set this up that the beneficiaries are each 33.33% owners of every gun and my goal/idea is never to sell the guns unless there is a unanimous decision to sell if I am dead and all the beneficiaries are all at least 25-years of age.

The concept is the Trust owns the guns and the three boys share in their 1/3rd interest. So the goal of the trust was not to sell the guns but maintain them in perpetuity and make them easily used/legal to the boys especially if they continued living in CA. The concept was also so I don't have to assign or name each child/beneficiary and which specific gun they get or are assigned. Is this even possible? So upon death does there have to be "a living person" assigned to the gun, at least in CA not sure in other states or can it just be the name of the trust as long as all the trustees who use the firearm have been background approved at age 25 when they become official trustees?

[D-FORCE]

Thanks Quiet: So said another way in CA I cannot also list the Trusts name on form 4473 when taking title and transferring a new firearm in?

What confuses me is this the same answer in NV or UT? One concept I was attempting to do was have my Trustees that live in those states purchase in the Trust name and obviously store them out of state in their proper legal address for use by all trustees when visiting. But these items would ultimately be owned by the Trust. The similar concept for having and putting NFA items into a Trust ownership.

[fiddletown]

Thanks Quiet:...But these items would ultimately be owned by the Trust...

Not really.

A trust in not a legal entity. A trust does not own anything. People might talk in casual terms about a trust owning something or having assets, but that's only a shorthand for the more detailed, technical reality.

It's kind of like the old "I say clip, but you know I mean magazine" discussion. If one lawyer talks to another about the assets of a trust, they both know that what is really meant is the property owned by the trustee in trust. But to someone without the background to understand the shorthand, it appears that there is some legal entity called a "trust" which owns certain property. That illustrates how a casual misuse of terms can lead to a serious misunderstanding. As the Chinese say, "The first step toward wisdom is calling things by their right names."

The legal reality is that the trustee (a person -- natural or artificial (a corporation) as the case may be) holds (owns) the assets in trust, subject to the terms of the trust document, for the benefit of one or more beneficiaries. Let's look at some definitions of "trust":

1. The Free Dictionary:

   Trust
   
   A relationship created at the direction of an individual, in which one or more persons hold the individual's property subject to certain duties to use and protect it for the benefit of others.
   
   Individuals may control the distribution of their property during their lives or after their deaths through the use of a trust. There are many types of trusts and many purposes for their creation. A trust may be created for the financial benefit of the person creating the trust, a surviving spouse or minor children, or a charitable purpose. Though a variety of trusts are permitted by law, trust arrangements that are attempts to evade creditors or lawful responsibilities will be declared void by the courts.
   
   The law of trusts is voluminous and often complicated, but generally it is concerned with whether a trust has been created, whether it is a public or private trust, whether it is legal, and whether the trustee has lawfully managed the trust and trust property.
   
   Basic Concepts
   
   The person who creates the trust is the settlor. The person who holds the property for another's benefit is the trustee. The person who is benefited by the trust is the beneficiary, or cestui que trust. The property that comprises the trust is the trust res, corpus, principal, or subject matter. For example, a parent signs over certain stock to a bank to manage for a child, with instructions to give the dividend checks to him each year until he becomes 21 years of age, at which time he is to receive all the stock. The parent is the settlor, the bank is the trustee, the stock is the trust res, and the child is the beneficiary.
   
   A fiduciary relationship exists in the law of trusts whenever the settlor relies on the trustee and places special confidence in her. The trustee must act in Good Faith with strict honesty and due regard to protect and serve the interests of the beneficiaries. The trustee also has a fiduciary relationship with the beneficiaries of the trust.
   
   A trustee takes legal title to the trust res, which means that the trustee's interest in the property appears to be one of complete ownership and possession, but the trustee does not have the right to receive any benefits from the property. The right to benefit from the property, known as equitable title, belongs to the beneficiary.
   
   The terms of the trust are the duties and powers of the trustee and the rights of the beneficiary conferred by the settlor when he created the trust....

   
   
2. The Law Dictionary:

   ...An equitable or beneficial right or title to land or other property, held for the beneficiary by another person, in whom resides the legal title or ownership, recognized and enforced by courts of chancery. See Goodwin v. McMinn, 193 Pa. 046, 44 Atl. 1094, 74 Am. St. Rep. 703; Beers v. Lyon, 21 Conn. 613; Seymour v. Freer, 8 Wall. 202, 19 L. Ed. 300. An obligation arising out of a confidence reposed in the trustee or representative, who has the legal title to property conveyed to him, that he will faithfully apply the property according to the confidence reposed, or, in other words, according to the wishes of the grantor of the trust. 4 Kent Comm. 304; Willis, Trustees, 2; Beers v. Lyon, 21 Conn. 613; Thornburg v. Buck, 13 Ind. App. 446, 41 N. E. 85....

   
   
3. Nolo Press:

   ...A trust is an arrangement under which one person, called a trustee, holds legal title to property for another person, called a beneficiary. You can be the trustee of your own living trust, keeping full control over all property held in trust....

   
   
4. Wikipedia:

   In common law legal systems, a trust is a relationship whereby property is held by one party for the benefit of another. A trust is created by a settlor, who transfers some or all of his or her property to a trustee. The trustee holds that property for the trust's beneficiaries. Trusts have existed since Roman times and have become one of the most important innovations in property law....

[Chewy65]

I am with fiddletown, but have kept my mouth shut since my estate and tax law experience is slim and when you cross into firearms law I get lost. There is a gun trust attorney on CG and I have been waiting for him to chime in.

[1911-CV]

I'm confused

I've seen things called trusts touted in free(er) states for the purposes of 'holding' things like silencers and other NFA items. Sample vendor link. The idea seems to be that the NFA item could be available to all the trustees/responsible persons named on the Trust.

Given the discussion above, I don't understand whether these "NFA trusts" are the same thing as the "legal trust" described above. Perhaps they are their own weird legal creature?

As NFA items are pretty much a no-go to your average Californian, the whole idea may be useless here.

Is there any use for a trust for guns in California; assuming the owner doesn't live/store firearms in some other state?

[D-FORCE]

Exactly what I am trying to determine

1911-CV: I think the main reason for a trust is NFA items and transfer in the future using the "trustee" relationship to the trust.

CA is a bit of an anomaly due to the gun registration feature. For example, a person is required to be associated to the possession or responsibility assigned to a firearm. So maybe the trust doesn't do me much good in CA especially if the want was shared ownership through the trustee feature since only one person can be "registered" as the legal representative or owner. Whereas, in free states there is no registration, just a background check at purchase.

The question is does the trust better work if the beneficiary or even a trustee is appointed to a corporation. Is that even possible in CA?

Let me ask this - In Hollywood do the companies that rent or use guns in the movies owned by a person or a corporation? Or are they held by an FFL in a corporation.

Fiddletown -- So the other technicality in CA does the trustee have to register the firearm ownership in their name until the kids are of legal age (25 in my trust) and become trustee beneficiaries when they can finally register their ownership in CA. This would be in the case I died when they were say age 20. Or does the trust maintain ownership in my name and registration until the children become 25 and can then register the firearm in their name? Meaning the trust or my persona continues to own in my death with trustees getting the benefit of use.

[guntrust]

There is a lot of confusion out there over planning with guns in trust.

Here is my latest article on CA gun trust planning:

https://lawnews.tv/critique-of-california-gun-laws-2023-edition/