Must my ammo be "locked" while transporting?

[Python2]

I just came from a Hunters Safety Course yesterday. One of the most drawn out 10 hours of my life (although I did learn). He said not only do my guns need to be locked and seperated from the ammo during transportation to the gun range, but the ammo must be locked up as well. Is this true?

Locked ammo is BS. Get yourself a copy of Cal Gun Laws and read it. There is a concealed gun Law and a loaded gun law. Never heard nor read anything that requires ammo to be locked. Hell, you can even have ammo with the guns in a locked container. We IPSC and IDPA shooters carry our shooting bags with ammos and unloaded guns inside it. You can even have a loaded magazine as long as they are not attached to the gun.

[vega]

Locked ammo is BS. Get yourself a copy of Cal Gun Laws and read it. There is a concealed gun Law and a loaded gun law. Never heard nor read anything that requires ammo to be locked. Hell, you can even have ammo with the guns in a locked container. We IPSC and IDPA shooters carry our shooting bags with ammos and unloaded guns inside it. You can even have a loaded magazine as long as they are not attached to the gun.

Not all IPSC and IDPA shooters carry their shooting bags with ammos and unloaded guns inside it.

[artherd]

I'm gonna disagree with you here. The range's parking lot is considered a public area and therefore the locked container is required.

Range parking lot is a Public area of Private Property, just like your own driveway. You can't get poped for illegal CCW in your own driveway for chrissake!

Big difference than a city owned street or state or federal freeway.

You do need the permission of the owner of said private property.

[artherd]

Not all IPSC and IDPA shooters carry their shooting bags with ammos and unloaded guns inside it.

Some of you permittes probally load the guns

[Matt C]

There is statutory law and CASE law. Not one person here got everything right. Don't get your legal advice off the internet, it's not worth losing your guns.

[FreedomIsNotFree]

There is statutory law and CASE law. Not one person here got everything right. Don't get your legal advice off the internet, it's not worth losing your guns.

Care to clarify for everyone here who did not get it right? Or do you just "know" everyone is wrong?

I've read the law.....everyone should....

P.C. 12031

[CalNRA]

IIRC, a DA that did the instruction for a CCW class I took mentioned this in regards to SCHOOL ZONES.

I believe he mentioned that weapons and ammo must be locked while transporting in a school zone. Part of the 1000 foot rule. Private property within this zone is exempt, but if you are transporting (such as in a vehicle) he said it (both guns and ammo - seperately) needed to be locked up. I think that is a Federal law.

Now if you are out of a 1000 foot zone you are ok, but just about everywhere you go within an incoporated area you will be within 1000 feet of a school.

Its probably not something you would get busted for, but if they wanted to stack charges, they probably could.

Now if I am transporting a firearm and ammo in seperate locked containers, am I allowed to park the car on a public street within 1000 feet of the school zone? SOmetimes parking on private property is not a choice. I am just carrying a longgun in my car while in incorporated areas.

I know that under the Gun-free Zone Act it is legal to have an unloaded, locked firearm in your motor vehicle within 1000 feet of a school. But it says nothing about parking. And are there any California state laws against parking a car like that?

[gh429]

1. Exemptions - First off I can't really see how the argument that 12026.2 exempts anyone from anything even makes sense. "b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision"

Seems pretty clear to me, keep your weapons unloaded in the trunk.

2. The Gun free school act or whatever (626.9) specifically states legal transport of an unloaded firearm is fine. I would find it difficult to believe that the state legislature expects law abiding citizens with firearms to meander their way around school zones to get from point A to point B.

3. Anyone have any thoughts about how a rifle in a case is a concealable firearm?

4. Regarding ammunition in the magazine NOT ATTACHED to the firearm, I have not seen anyone ever being charged with having a loaded firearm when the magazine (clip) is not in the firearm. This would simply be inconsistent with the accepted concept of "unloaded firearm" that is used each and everyday by the criminial justice system.

""A firearm does not cease to be a firearm when it is unloaded or inoperable... This applies to semiautomatic firearms as well as any other kind. When a clip is removed from a semiautomatic firearm, the firearm does not suddenly become a billy club, a stick, or a duck." - California Court of Appeals

Taken in context with the case, I think it is reasonable to conclude that the courts have defined a firearm unloaded when "a clip is removed".

I have and will continue to transport my firearms with fully loaded magazines separate from the rifles / handguns without fear of prosecution. Anyone have any thoughts as to shotgun side-saddles?

[EBWhite]

If you make a habit of hanging around with firearms within a 1000 feet of a school, you will get popped for it.

However, a public street can be used to transport a firearm. You may still carry your mag on the dash and rifle in your lap unloaded and drive right past a school. Nobody is going to tell you that you cannot drive down that street since its too close to a school...

[FreedomIsNotFree]

Seems pretty clear to me, keep your weapons unloaded in the trunk.

Anyone have any thoughts as to shotgun side-saddles?

The trunk is considered a locked container. So is the CA approved compact pistol case sitting on my passenger seat.....haha.

In regards to the shotgun side-saddle the law is clear. It may not be attached IN ANY MANNER to the firearm.

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.


Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[CalNRA]

The trunk is considered a locked container. So is the CA approved compact pistol case sitting on my passenger seat.....haha.

When I go on road trips with my girl friend, the locked case sits at her feet. SHe knows the combo, and knows how to load a magzine. and there is a box of 45acp in the glvoe compartment. you connect the dots.

THen again my parents(or my kids) will sue the city and the state if I ever get mugged and shot, for failure to allow citizens the right to protect themselves...and you guys can enjoy any potential benefits....

[newtothis]

How about in a station wagon or van? Pistols in locked box or with trigger lock. Ammo in front seat, back seat or back -but in different row?

[CalNRA]

How about in a station wagon or van? Pistols in locked box or with trigger lock. Ammo in front seat, back seat or back -but in different row?

the very presence of a locked container means you are covered in have the gun being "unloaded in a locked container". The Ammo can be pretty much anywhere in the car other than your mouth.

I regularly transport my handguns in a locked container and a few boxes of ammo sitting ina bag in the front seat with the pistol container. If the cops bust me for that it would mean I'm doing something else wrong...

[Librarian]

The trunk is considered a locked container. So is the CA approved compact pistol case sitting on my passenger seat.....haha.

In regards to the shotgun side-saddle the law is clear. It may not be attached IN ANY MANNER to the firearm.

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.


Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

It is - see People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147, 1154 --

The Legislature in Penal Code section 12031, subdivision (g), provided some examples of how a shell would be "attached" to a firearm so that the firearm is loaded, i.e., in the firing chamber, magazine or clip; situations in which the firearm would be "loaded" in the usual meaning of the word, i.e., the shell is placed in a position from which it can be fired. Significantly, the Legislature also provided that a muzzle-loader firearm must be capped or primed, have a powder charge and ball in the barrel or cylinder before it is deemed "loaded," again a definition which is consistent with the common meaning of the term "loaded," i.e., ready for firing.

Given the examples are all consistent with an intent to use the common meaning of "loaded," it follows the Legislature's use of the phrase "attached in any manner" to the firearm was intended to encompass a situation where a shell or cartridge might be attached to a firearm or "loaded" for firing by some unconventional method. The phrase does not demonstrate a clear Legislative intent to deem a firearm loaded no matter how a shell is attached to a firearm; in particular, it does not indicate a clear intent to deem a gun "loaded" when the ammunition, as here, is in a storage compartment which is not equivalent to either a magazine or clip and from which the ammunition cannot be fired.

Our conclusion that the Legislature intended "loaded" as used in Penal Code section 12031 to reflect the common definition is supported by the court in People v. Heffner (1977) 70 Cal.App.3d 643, 650 [139 Cal.Rptr. 45], which reached the same conclusion ("the apparent purpose [of the 'loaded' definition] is to make it clear that for purpose of section 12031 the usual meaning of 'loaded firearm' is to apply."). In Heffner, the court noted when the Legislature adopted Penal Code section 12031, it also adopted another Penal Code statute which contained a special definition of "loaded," i.e., that a firearm was loaded if the firearm and unexpended ammunition were in the immediate possession of the same person. This definition applied to the offenses of bringing a "loaded" firearm into certain state governmental offices and residences of certain state officers and legislators. (People v. Heffner, supra, 70 Cal.App.3d at p. 650; Pen. Code, § 171e.) Since Heffner, the Legislature has adopted this special definition of "loaded" for the offense of carrying a loaded firearm with an intent to commit a felony. (Pen. Code, [45 Cal.App.4th 1155] §§ 12001, subd. (j); 12023.) fn. 1 Significantly, the Legislature has not amended the common definition of "loaded" as used in section 12031 nor elected to provide a specialized definition of "loaded" for Health and Safety Code section 11370.1.

The Attorney General argues we should adopt an expansive definition of "loaded" in light of the Legislature's general concern with increasing punishment for those who possess firearms and our Supreme Court's recognition the presence of firearms and drugs increases the potential for death or injury. (See People v. Bland (1995) 10 Cal.4th 991, 1001-1002 [43 Cal.Rptr.2d 77, 898 P.2d 391].) While this argument could support a specialized and expansive definition of "loaded" for a violation of Health and Safety Code section 11370.1, subdivision (a), it does not establish such a definition was intended. Had the Legislature intended to apply a specialized definition of "loaded" for Health and Safety Code section 11370.1 encompassing the situation where the ammunition was stored in or adjacent to a firearm, they easily could have so provided. They, however, did not elect to do so.

Finally, we note that at most the Attorney General has raised a potential ambiguity in the use of the term "loaded." [3] As Clark correctly observes, ambiguities in statutes are to be construed in favor of the defendant; " ' "[t]he defendant is entitled to the benefit of every reasonable doubt, whether it arise out of a question of fact, or as to the true interpretation of words or the construction of language used in a statute. [Citation.]" ' " (People v. Garfield (1985) 40 Cal.3d 192, 200 [219 Cal.Rptr. 196, 707 P.2d 258].) [1c] Thus, to the extent an ambiguity exists between whether the Legislature intended the term "loaded" to be used in its ordinary sense (i.e., a shell placed in a position ready to be fired) or to be used in an unusual sense (i.e., including a shell placed in a storage compartment from which it cannot be fired), we adopt the construction more favorable to Clark, i.e., that the term was intended to be used in its ordinary sense and that the shotgun here was not loaded.

But until I read Clark, I held the same opinion as you wrote.

[paradox]

It is - see People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147, 1154 -- But until I read Clark, I held the same opinion as you wrote.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. That is the case I was refering to at the very beginning.

We need a stickied thread of case law that has this at the top so people stop with the stupid "lock your ammo away from the gun" or "a loaded magazine is a loaded gun" advice. I have noticed that the courts tend to be rather straight forward and utilize common sense far better than the Legislature, DOJ, or even gun nuts.