will standard 7.62x39 penetrate bullet proof vest ?

[Unit74]

An NIJ Level III vest will protect you against a .308 147gr FMJ bullet doing about 2780 fps.

That round will penetrate any Level IIIa or below, probably like the vest wasn't even there.

Nevermind the collapsed lung and other shock trauma...

[Toast]

I still marvel to this day that no one except the perps died that day!

They should make full auto legal, since it's apparently safer

[Eight O Clock]

The two North Hollywood Bandits/ A******S used ARMOR PIERCING AMMO in full auto AKM/ AK-47 type rifles. It was rumored that the rifles were brought-in from Mexico.

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I have heard many source say they were using standard ammo. I believe the anti-gun media called it "armor piercing".

I dont know for sure though. Do you have a link that shows they were in fact using illegal or specficially made armor piercing rounds ?

[OneApart]

As above mentioned, a standard CLASS III stand-alone vest will be not enough to protect against a 7.62x39 rd - even when the stand-alone vest is marked as 7.62.

The only option for successfully defeating that round would be to go with a Level III (or Level IV) vest w/plate carrier in conjunction with Level IV ceramic plates (which can defeat a 30-06 Armor Piercing rd), however that will still not protect you against multiple impacts.

The MIL used to issue DRAGONSKIN to protect select units against such threats, however it was later found to be defective & would allow round penetration in certain joints + certain trajectories:

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/17/dont-buy-dragon-skin-peo-soldier/

Personally I prefer the older Interceptor Model by POINT BLANK:



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Maybe:



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Try an LAV.

[OneApart]

I have heard many source say they were using standard ammo. I believe the anti-gun media called it "armor piercing".

I dont know for sure though. Do you have a link that shows they were in fact using illegal or specficially made armor piercing rounds ?

Media they were using a mix of .122/.123 GR FMJ/JHP rounds. That round (standard BLACK BOX WOLF),



can easily go through thin pieces of sheet metal (or aluminum) like it wasn't even there. I've shot through 1/4 plate steel @ 40-50 yds and got penetration no problem. The round/coupled with volume of fire was just too much for LEO's. That is the sort of combat where Light Armor Vehicles come into play.





Just because their rounds penetrated the LAPD soft concealable body armor does not make it an armor piercing round!! The trauma plates that are in those vests are just a little bigger than your sternum... which still leaves your lungs/other vitals relatively unprotected.

Those "A******S", as they have been called were just more prepared than law enforcement that day.

[SkiDevil]

I have heard many source say they were using standard ammo. I believe the anti-gun media called it "armor piercing".

I don't know for sure though. Do you have a link that shows they were in fact using illegal or specificially made armor piercing rounds ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

This is the best I could do under short notice. Also, National Geographic did a two-hour documentary on the North Hollywood Incident as well and essentially reported the same thing. Larry Phillips was a criminally minded gun enthusiast/ 'gun nut', whatever term you prefer. He liked guns and was well educated in what types of ammunition and weapons were best suited for anti-personnel use.

However, no mention was made as to the other calibers, 9mm, .308, .223 etc. But the 7.62X39 mm was steel core/ armor piercing rifle ammunition. I have fired some of this type of ammo in the past it penetrates phenomenally.

I read ALOT. I will be cleaning-out some of my book shelves and look through back issues of PORAC and FBI Bulletin magazines that I have because I read an analysis on the incident, but just can't recall the exact source.

Finally, it is NOT FUD. Those guys acquired the steel core 7.62X39 mm rounds for the specific purpose under which they used it. Evidence to that motive may be the fact that the vast majority of the rounds fired by Phillips and Matasareanu were through the AKM/ AK-47 type rifles during the incident.

SkiDevil

[norcal77]

To answer the OPs question...yeah, it'll go right through...

Now this would be cool on a motorcycle...who makes this and where can I buy it??

[norcal77]

Found the face mask

I also found this if anybody is interested....has interesting info..

http://www.securityprousa.com/bach1.html

[bluestaterebel]

To answer the OPs question...yeah, it'll go right through...

Whoa! Careful with making blanket statements or that Turo guy will put you in your place

Although almost every post after mine seemed to have proved my blanket point..

[sd1023x]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

This is the best I could do under short notice. Also, National Geographic did a two-hour documentary on the North Hollywood Incident as well and essentially reported the same thing. Larry Phillips was a criminally minded gun enthusiast/ 'gun nut', whatever term you prefer. He liked guns and was well educated in what types of ammunition and weapons were best suited for anti-personnel use.

However, no mention was made as to the other calibers, 9mm, .308, .223 etc. But the 7.62X39 mm was steel core/ armor piercing rifle ammunition. I have fired some of this type of ammo in the past it penetrates phenomenally.

I read ALOT. I will be cleaning-out some of my book shelves and look through back issues of PORAC and FBI Bulletin magazines that I have because I read an analysis on the incident, but just can't recall the exact source.

Finally, it is NOT FUD. Those guys acquired the steel core 7.62X39 mm rounds for the specific purpose under which they used it. Evidence to that motive may be the fact that the vast majority of the rounds fired by Phillips and Matasareanu were through the AKM/ AK-47 type rifles during the incident.

SkiDevil

[mif_slim]

From my testing, even Wolf ammo in 55gr .223 will not expand yet only tumbles. The bullet will however narrow down to look similar to a blade as it tumbles thru media. That could explain why media thinkgs it was "armor piercing" .... just like they said the SKS was a fully automatic weapon....umm..partly true, but not all true.

[Sinixstar]

It all depends on the vest.

[Seesm]

I needs me some level 4 for sure...

[Hayashi Killian]

police class III balistic kevlar is only meant to stop handgun rounds in reality.

You're mistaken. Most police wear underclothes IIIA vests which are designed to stop handgun rounds. If they wore level III armor they'd be able to stop some rifle rounds.

Pretty much any rifle round will go through bullet proof vests

No. Level IV armor is designed to stop .30-06 black tip. It won't stop .50BMG, but it can stop a lot of rifle rounds.

I was gonna go there but thanks for saving me the trouble.
Level and 3a are rated for heavy handgun rounds. Level 3 is rated for rifle rounds, now thats only 1-2 hits before failure. Then there's level 4 which is rated for multible hits from 7.62 class rifles.
Any centerfire round will zip right through and of the 1-2-3a vests.

Not true. Level III is rated for (and REQUIRED to be) multi-hit against 7.62x39 and .308. Level IV is NOT required to be multi-hit against .30-06 black tip. So there is no multi-hit level IV armor, and yes I know Bulletproofme.com has what they call multi-hit level IV armor but there's no NIJ standard for multi-hit level IV.

[SkiDevil]

The steel core Chinese and Russian ammunition does penetrate to a much greater degree than completely lead core projectiles. The reason is because of the fact that steel is denser than lead. This is also why many of the larger projectiles produced for the military are from depleted uranium. It is one of the densest metals in the world.

When it comes to other rifle/ handgun projectiles, many ammunition manufacturers are beginning to use copper jacketed rounds for superior penetration. Examples include Remington Golden Sabre pistol rounds and Corbon's DPX projectiles. Copper is denser than lead and penetrates better, plus the jacket typically does not separate from the round.

Why is steel core M855 legal? Not considered amor piercing? Couldn't say. Perhaps the politicians haven't gotten around to it yet.

Besides, the only real advantage to a deeper penetrating round is for the purposes of defeating body armor/ vehicles armored/ and penetration into cover. M855 typically sails right through the human torso and offers no true terminal superiority to standard ball M193 55 gr lead core rounds. My understanding was the round (M855) was designed to defeat ballistic helmets and lightly armored vehicles/ cover.

If you want to see the real difference between standard lead core rounds and steel core rounds, then targets such as junked cars, discarded steel plates, and other large durable products like washer/ dryers or refrigerators would be useful. A steel core 7.62x39 mm round will completely pass through your typical American automobile, including the engine block. A lead core round of the same caliber will not do that.

And I do agree with you. The rationale for ammunition bans does not make any sense. If evil people are dead set on causing harm then they will find away to do it, irregardless of the laws passed by the legislature.

But then again, when have almost any Politicians made any sense?

Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x39mm

Note: Wikipedia disagrees with my assertion, but some interesting information irregardless. I have used some Chicom Norinco 7.62x39 mm in the past and it penetrated a great deal, more so than the Winchester 123 FMJ rounds I used for target shooting/ hunting.

Dr. Martin Fackler and Peter Kokalis have written about the 7.62x39 mm round a great deal if it is something you have an interest in. Kokalis is a widely published author and somewhat controversial because of his political opinions. And Dr. Fackler has worked for the US Army, FBI, and other government agencies. He is recognized as a leading authority when it comes to ballistics/ wound effects of small arms.