more info? GKY Outfitters/Loyal Firearms Off-Roster handguns...

[bwiese]

Folks, does anyone have more info on this?

There appears to be an outta-CA entity called GKY Outfitters (an 07) making/modfiying off-Roster handguns for CA sales.

Loyal Arms (Folsom, CA) is one of its 'partner FFLs' along with some in SoCal.

I saw Loyal's posts on FB (and was alerted to them too) about this. And I say it's great - if possible. I
asked questions to both parties (Loyal and GKY) and have not received answers. Other people on FB thread,
incl FFLs, were asking questions got banned from thread etc. The questions were legit, polite & 'non-assaultive'.

• appears they're doing/selling 2011-style SSE on production guns: longer barrel, compliant OAL,
  and inelegantly (hard to tell) 'single shotted' for zero round mag capacity
  .
  
• these guns appear NOT to be guns like various recent legit Sig P320 solutions we've seen, etc.
  .
  
• the relevant guns' vendors (at least HK pistols & Stacatto pistols) do NOT sell 'virgin unfired receivers'.
  Such would be required to do 'SSE2' post-AB1964.
  
  [Remember, AB1964 killed 2007-2013 'single shotting' Roster bypass by stating the exemption didn't apply
  to guns that were already semiauto - and most all factory guns are and were also test fired, etc.]
  .
  
• These guns do not appear to be Rostered in either form (either ordinary stock config, or as displayed in
  FFL pics w/an 'SSE barrel' etc. They seem to be selling, and no recent relevant Roster updates occurred.
  .
  
• Am absolutely unclear that any possible 're-marking' by an 07FFL would reset the 'semiauto virginity factor'
  back to zero, if that is what they are attempting. Even if cool by ATF, the CA single-shot exemption post-AB1964
  is broad enough I'd not risk that.

I'd hope this is not 'too good to be true'.

My worries, since the Roster is not anywhere near dead:

- not clearcut like SSE (which DOJ grudginly and ATF politely tolerated; FBI agent mgmt reviewed, and FBI
guys were getting extra off-Roster guns duplicating their orig duty guns.

- even if they give out of state vendor a C&D, the relevant CA FFLs may be at risk.

- if products found 'no-go', DROSes could be reversed, guns surrendered, etc.

And these are not pistols built up from blank receivers.


Anyone know more that might clarify things??

[ugimports]

Don't know for sure, but there's a possibility HK and Stacatto *might* be selling virgin frames.

For example...Atlas doesn't offer on its website their frames for SSE conversion, but is working with a few dealers on them.

Taran Tactical is another one where they explicitly say on their website their off roster stuff is not CA legal, but they have privately worked a deal with a CA FFL to sell .22 LR compliant single shot pistols through.

I have no idea on the outfit you mention above. I only mention this as it is possible they have worked with those vendors to be able to do what they are doing..

However, I kind of think it is too good to be true because while I think Staccato might play the game..I don't think HK would..

Also, the barrel insert game is NOT the way the other vendors I mention do it..they actually have a complete .22LR single shot slide assembly on their frames. After DROS is complete the buyer ships back the slide to get the other parts.

I have a feeling that when it gets remarked by the 07 they are assuming that's "good enough". Only time will tell what CA DOJ thinks of it. I think that'll be for lawyers to fight it out on. I guess technically it is being built as a single shot pistol by the (new) manufacturer.. although I don't know how they can say it didn't START as semi-auto since the base firearm they are starting with is semi-auto...

ETA: That might be the purpose of having an outside of CA FFL07 do the "conversion"...I don't have the CA PC handy, but maybe it says something about it not happening in CA..

[SB1942]

Wasn't this "covered" a few weeks ago??

[munkeeboi]

Wasn't this "covered" a few weeks ago??

Please link to it if you can.. I have always been curious how this has been happening.

[bwiese]

Wasn't this "covered" a few weeks ago??

I haven't seen it specific to these vendors/subjects. Love to get more info.

[bwiese]

Don't know for sure, but there's a possibility HK and Stacatto *might* be selling virgin frames.

t

Simply no.
HK "We hate you" simply does not sell frames. An FFL close to Stacatto
told me they don't sell frames either - they're in the gun not parts biz
and don't want their name on parts guns. [Sig is a real outlier on selling
their serialized trigger groups etc. but that has to do with their legal team.]

I have a feeling that when it gets remarked by the 07 they are assuming that's "good enough".

If that is their thing, it won't fly. Read the wording of the modified
SSE exemption post 2104.

ETA: That might be the purpose of having an outside of CA FFL07
do the "conversion"...I don't have the CA PC handy, but maybe it says
something about it not happening in CA..

Nope.

The FFL might or might not have criminal issues (see "Long Arm statutes")
but certainly the FFL could.


Now, DOJ/Iggy did in fall 2006 have drama with Evans Gunsmithing re-marked
Colt AR rifles with fixed mags. Caused a whole day meeting (or big part of)
to try to resolve - the guns got re-marked "Evans-Colt" etc. But I think that
is THEIR escape. It's not legally precedential, and was to make up for Iggy
Chinn random 'rulings' he legally cannot make.

But AB1964 summary and law are pretty clear "only a virgin":

"SUMMARY: Makes the provisions regulating unsafe handguns
inapplicable to a single-shot pistol with a break top or bolt
action. Specifically, this bill makes this exemption from the
unsafe handgun list inapplicable to a semiautomatic pistol that
has been temporarily or permanently altered so that it will not
fire in a semiautomatic mode."

and actual relevant text:

PC 32000(b) Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5
(commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with
a break top or bolt action and a barrel length of not less than 6 inches and that
has an overall length of at least 10 inches when the handle, frame or receiver,
and barrel are assembled.

However, Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing
with Section 32000) shall apply to a semiautomatic pistol that has been
temporarily or permanently altered so that it will not fire in a semiautomatic mode.

[ugimports]

t

Simply no.
HK "We hate you" simply does not sell frames. An FFL close to Stacatto
told me they don't sell frames either - they're in the gun not parts biz
and don't want their name on parts guns. [Sig is a real outlier on selling
their serialized trigger groups etc. but that has to do with their legal team.]

I wonder how Stacatto feels about their guns being re-mfg.

But AB1964 summary and law are pretty clear "only a virgin":

"SUMMARY: Makes the provisions regulating unsafe handguns
inapplicable to a single-shot pistol with a break top or bolt
action. Specifically, this bill makes this exemption from the
unsafe handgun list inapplicable to a semiautomatic pistol that
has been temporarily or permanently altered so that it will not
fire in a semiautomatic mode."

and actual relevant text:

PC 32000(b) Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5
(commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with
a break top or bolt action and a barrel length of not less than 6 inches and that
has an overall length of at least 10 inches when the handle, frame or receiver,
and barrel are assembled.

However, Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing
with Section 32000) shall apply to a semiautomatic pistol that has been
temporarily or permanently altered so that it will not fire in a semiautomatic mode.

I think this is going to be problematic...I don't know how the GKY FFL can say it didn't start as a semi-auto pistol.

Sounds like that FFL was a CA ex-pat that moved to TX just to start these operations.. if you look at their website they specifically only create CA Compliant firearms.

I'm also wondering if they will now handle warranty work since the "original" mfg I doubt would.

[bwiese]

I wonder how Stacatto feels about their guns being re-mfg.

They can't really stop that.

I think this is going to be problematic...I don't know how the GKY FFL
can say it didn't start as a semi-auto pistol.

GKY is outta state and is separate from the various "FFL Partners" in CA.

Sounds like that FFL was a CA ex-pat that moved to TX just to start these operations.. if you look at their website they specifically only create CA Compliant firearms.

No, again see above.

I'm also wondering if they will now handle warranty work since the "original" mfg I doubt would.

Depends. Zillions of people got pre-2014 SSE off-Rosters and didn't care
about warranties.

[ugimports]

They can't really stop that.

They sort of can..I don't think they sell through distribution. If they disapproved they could stop selling to that particular FFL. I guess it doesn't stop him from purchasing their firearms elsewhere, but would drive up the cost substantially I would assume.

Depends. Zillions of people got pre-2014 SSE off-Rosters and didn't care about warranties.

None of those were re-marked with a new mfg FFL on it though so it was a different/non-issue. However, generally speaking, yes I assume most of those SSE customers did not care.

[SkyHawk]

We did discuss it here a few weeks back, someone made a thread to show theirs off and there were questions about how it could even be legal and the OP was convinced to ask mods to delete it before DOJ came sniffing around because no one was sure who/what/how etc.

[bwiese]

We did discuss it here a few weeks back, someone made a thread to show theirs off and there were questions about how it could even be legal and the OP was convinced to ask mods to delete it before DOJ came sniffing around because no one was sure who/what/how etc.

Yeah. Something smells wrong.

Hiding does nothing useful. Being loud & proud of clearly legal intent
(SSE 2007-2014) actually helped.

[dummykid]

i would stay with Atlas/SVI/Limcat, or 2Azone.

[waygeekierthanu]

They sort of can..I don't think they sell through distribution. If they disapproved they could stop selling to that particular FFL. I guess it doesn't stop him from purchasing their firearms elsewhere, but would drive up the cost substantially I would assume.



None of those were re-marked with a new mfg FFL on it though so it was a different/non-issue. However, generally speaking, yes I assume most of those SSE customers did not care.

This. As a Staccato dealer, we signed an agreement to not sell Staccato to other FFLs. We can transfer for customers, but we can't sell inventory to a non Staccato dealer. If they find out who's doing it, ban time

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

[taperxz]

They showed an HK on their FB page. When I zoomed in, it “kinda” looked like a bad stamp from GKY? Just above the light rail.

I don’t see how that makes it a virgin frame though to negate the PC

[Dirk Tungsten]

tagged for later reading