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Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more. |
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#1
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Say someone wanted to test an old BP shotgun....
Just for discussion’s sake, say someone came across a turn of the century SxS double, and it appeared to be in decent shape. Again, theoretically speaking.......
How would you go about working up a low power BP load to test function?
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Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#2
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Is this a cartridge gun or a muzzleloader?
If a cartridge gun I would have a gunsmith evaluate it and I would supply the gunsmith with some black powder shells of the correct length for testing like these https://www.buffaloarms.com/obsolete...n/shotgun-ammo Here is a two part article that may also be useful https://loaddata.com/Article/LoadDev...hells-Pt-1/126 https://loaddata.com/Article/LoadDev...hells-Pt-2/127 Last edited by Elgatodeacero; 01-28-2021 at 10:11 AM.. |
#5
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Of course... !! And, thanks for those links. Quote:
Yeah - I bought it as a wall hanger, and that is its intended purpose for my reloading/gunroom. It just looks so cool and functions so nicely that I'm intrigued by the thought that it might still be serviceable. Probably a bad idea, and I probably won't act on it..... but if a low pressure load is a possibility, I'd love to see it blow some smoke downrange.
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Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#6
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Have you checked the proofs to confirm it is bp only? My 1904 made shotgun was definitely intended for smokeless.
Assuming you want maximum safety, I'd look for a black powder specific forum, or talk to the cass guys. They have more experience in this area, and you'd probably get more germane responses. |
#7
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Taking to CASS guys is a good idea, thanks.
__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#8
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just picked this one up a couple of months ago.. 1898-1902 Colton laminated steel.. so far a few quick browses, haven't found anything readily available, either due to ammo shortage or lack of interest.. I reckon the latter, wouldn't think there'd be a run on black powder or reduced power smokeless shotgun shells anyways, please count me in.. I'm willing to contribute to this effort or copy it and try it myself, whatever helps
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#9
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Ohhh.... that one is Damascus. That's a Widow Maker, right there.
__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#10
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Good article on twist and damascus barreled guns in the recent Guns & Ammo magazine.
Maybe you can find it on line? What I found interesting was the warning about twist barrels being subject to rupture if dented, that could cause cracks in the twist, so check carefully. Also look for rust inside the bores that may have thinned the metal.
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#11
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Quote:
And a full length pic..... 32" barrels!:
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Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#13
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2 drams (about 50 grains by weight) real black powder, 1 nitro card, 1 1/2inch fiber wad lightly lubed, 1 oz lead shot, 1 overshot card glued in place with Elmers. Should be about 1000 fps (I expect less) and very light.
I can send you a couple of brass hulls and appropriate sized wads if you have some black around.
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#14
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I would expect fluid barrels to be nitro proofed but looking at your barrels, it looks to me like it's only black proofed.
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Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator. Last edited by NapalmCheese; 01-28-2021 at 2:18 PM.. |
#15
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Quote:
__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#16
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Yeah - the chart furnished below confirms that. Only proofed for black powder.
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Then, there is the proof mark "crown over oval with E/L/G and star" which was used 1893-present. The gauge designator (12C in a diamond) was used 1898-1924, so that's consistent with the first CHOKE mark. Fascinating...... thanks again!
__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#17
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Beautiful gun, nitro proof would have been a bonus but still awesome. If you're gonna do any hunting with it let anyone you're with know, it's gonna get smokey really quickly.
I love how classic side by sides handle, how is the length of pull on it? My vintage side by side has to have been made for someone very small stature, I need at least an extra inch on the stock. Currently wearing a slip on recoil pad until I decide on a more permanent solution. |
#18
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Loads in my brass hull book specify large pistol primers, 209s are more energetic but again, shouldn't cause a problem. The stacked load I gave you won't come anywhere near filling the hull, as an FYI. I've got a bunch of 3 dram pyrodex loads sitting in the garage but haven't gotten around to shoot them. The local sporting clay place asked me to do it when there's less traffic as the smoke and smell tends to cause people to stop what they're doing and watch, lol.
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#19
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Yep. I do that with all older weapons on first fire. Even first round ladder test on iffy calibers with not much data available. Bungy them to a tree or metal rail out in the sticks and give that string a yank behind the truck.
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#20
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Go camping. Bring a heavy loose tire. Strap down said shotty to tire with butt inserted across and into the inside of the tread area. Make sure your backstop is good and tie a string to the trigger.
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#21
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I used to own an antique 1889 10 gauge lever action. I hand made some shells by cutting up loaded 10 gauge rounds, dumping the powder and wad, loading with black powder and a lubed felt wad, and the same shot (and a couple buck).
I put a paper wad in the end glued in with gorilla glue (sand the inside of the end of the shell or it won't hold). I sold the thing without ever firing it- but the new owner did and sent video- ran like a swiss watch, not much kick, lots of smoke. -Dave |
#23
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Does brownells still sell brass 12 gauge shells for these old guns?
__________________
Rule 1- ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED Rule 2 -NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY (including your hands and legs) Rule 3 -KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET Rule 4 -BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT (thanks to Jeff Cooper) |
#24
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https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...prod56263.aspx
One of the reviews MAGTECK BRASS Great Brass all around. I tap the shells so i can use, 209 primers. Black powder with these brass shells, works well in my 113-year-old side-by-side. Only thing i find wrong is. I need more of them! Great brass! Kevin
__________________
Rule 1- ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED Rule 2 -NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY (including your hands and legs) Rule 3 -KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET Rule 4 -BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT (thanks to Jeff Cooper) Last edited by hermosabeach; 01-29-2021 at 10:32 PM.. |
#25
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You got me excited for a minute, but........ Out of Stock.
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__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#26
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those are what i use in 12 and 16 gauge. I tried to buy some more recently but all I could find were 16s.
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#27
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Quote:
Start there.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#28
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Good advice, thanks.
After consulting a friend that has experience in this process, I put together four test loads. 2 drams of ffg, 1 ounce of shot, a cut down Remington figure 8 wad, and homemade nitro and over shot cards. All assembled and glued/sealed.... Ready for take-off. I'll post results when I get brave enough to try them.
__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#29
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Most recommend 2.5 to 3 drams of powder under 1 ounce of lead shot. Use an over-powder wad and then cut off the bottom gas seal and legs part of a plastic wad to use as a shot cup. Blackpowder is so much slower that the wads melt and leave plastic in the bore after a few shots. The over-powder wad stops the blackpowder from melting the shot cup. If your stack height is short after cutting off the bottom part of the plastic wad, add additional card spacers to get the column height correct for a traditional fold crimp.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#30
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Quote:
A friend forwarded me an interesting article addressing the subject of loading for and firing old BP shotguns, and there was a pretty informative chart attached. Apparently, even with a 3 Dram load of FFG, BP is only generating about ~4,000 psi, which is a far cry from the 11,000psi or so my reloads attain in my skeet gun (book value - I've never tested). I did cut off the gas seal and legs of the shot cup as you mentioned to do (as seen in the previous pic). I'm not overly worried about melted plastic as I will only be shooting 3-4 test loads, just to see what happens. If the gun doesn't disassemble itself or so other signs of stress, any further testing will take place with proper nitro cards and lubed vegetable based wads as directed in everything I've read. Speaking of nitro cards - I didn't have any, so I made some from cardboard discs. They are not as thick as real nitro cards and probably won't do much in regard to protecting the wad from scorching, but they are keeping the powder confined nice and tight. If the test rounds go as anticipated, the next step is to up the charge to 2.5 or 3 Drams and use the proper wads. I think that with a 2 Dram load, my real concern will be with maybe a blooper round. The one thing I'm real curious about is the pattern the gun will produce. Tightly choked 32" barrels at 20 yards..... I wonder what that's gonna look like.
__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." Last edited by bigbossman; 02-03-2021 at 9:02 AM.. |
#31
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__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#33
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In an old black powder shotgun that's not proofed for nitro?
__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#34
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I think both chokes are cylinder, with cylinder being 18.1mm in one barrel and 18.3mm in the other, meaning some constriction but different than chokes really. My take on the 18.1/18.1 mark is that the barrel is bored 18.1 instead of 18.5, and is 18.1 at the muzzle. My take on the 18.3 is that the barrel is bored 18.3 the whole way through. I DO know that my 100 year old shotguns ('Murican! with 'Murican choke designations) run a good bit tighter than modern chokes. Old loads that didn't use shot cups and often used soft lead shot opened patterns, so guns were choked more tightly. Modern shotcups help tighten patterns, so lots of old guns shoot REALLY tight with modern loads.
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Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator. Last edited by NapalmCheese; 02-03-2021 at 11:56 AM.. |
#35
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i thought there were stamps in the picture they survived a double charge
and the #7 minishells are like half power |
#36
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__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#37
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All the Aguila mini's I've seen on the net are either slugs or some variation of buckshot. Plus, smokeless powder has a different, faster pressure curve than BP, so that might be a consideration. Not sure if I want to go there yet, reduced charge notwithstanding. I'll keep it in mind, but I don't have them and the local stores ain't gonna have them on the shelves.
__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#38
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Or I guess just consider them 12 gauge with LONG PARALLEL chokes, lol. I am also interested to see how they pattern, if all goes well I'd like to see the pattern from a load of 3 dram 1 oz #8 with a stacked wad column!
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#39
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Measure them by constriction. Constriction is the difference between the bore diameter (before the choke) and the exit diameter. If your bore is 0.723", then that 0.715" exit diameter is 0.008" constriction. If your bore is 0.729", then that 0.715" exit diameter is 0.014" constriction. If your bore is 0.740", then that 0.715" exit diameter is 0.025" constriction. More here: https://allaboutshooting.com/blogs/b...-exit-diameter
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Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#40
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Actually, thinking back, things are making sense in regards to the choked constriction vs. bore diameter.
If we consider that chokes are designated by the percentage of pellets in a circle at a certain distance rather than by constriction it makes sense. That is, a 12 gauge is normally loaded with between 1 and 1.25 oz of shot. If your 1.25oz load puts 70% of the pellets in a 30 inch circle at 40 yards it's a full choke. If you're 18.1 bore diameter shotgun with no apparently constriction at the muzzle puts 70% of the pellets in a 'normal' load into a 30 inch circle at 40 yards, it's a full choke (despite not having a choke constriction). I'd need to look at the picture again, but sometimes old shotguns have pellet counts or percentages listed on them. That is to say that ultimately in this old gun the difference in bore diameter vs. muzzle diameter doesn't necessarily define the choke; the pattern density defines the choke and the gauge defines the shell used (not the bore diameter).
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Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator. Last edited by NapalmCheese; 02-03-2021 at 5:24 PM.. |
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