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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 03-30-2021, 10:08 AM
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ORDER OF INJUNCTION AND CONSENT DECREE signed by Senior Judge Morrison C. England, Jr., on 3/29/21. CASE CLOSED
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  #82  
Old 03-30-2021, 10:29 AM
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I hope nobody makes the mistake of thinking this is a new opportunity to attempt to register a firearm they hadn't previously attempted to and earns a visit.

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(1) prior to January 1, 2017, the person would have been eligible to register an assault weapon pursuant to subdivision (b) of Penal Code §30900;
(2) the person lawfully possessed each assault weapon to be registered, prior to January 1, 2017;
(3) the person attempted to register the assault weapon prior to the original registration deadline of midnight on July 1, 2018, but was unable to do so because of technical difficulties; and
(4) the person timely registers the assault weapon(s) in accordance with the terms of this Stipulation.
Collectively, these four requirements shall be referred to herein as “the Registration Requirements.”
I'm just curious about this, but for folks who submitted a registration but were denied based on images submitted, would they be included in (3)? or is this really just for the folks could couldn't connect on the last few days?
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  #83  
Old 03-30-2021, 10:30 PM
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So here's a hypothetical for the brain trust. I've got a friend. He bought a BB AR15 from Turners when in was legal before all this. He didn't realize he had to register it, so it's now an unregistered AW. I told him to pop the upper off the lower for now.

Since he never started the AW registration, how 'effed up is he with this new ruling? Should he try once registration opens up? Convert to featureless and call it a day?
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  #84  
Old 03-31-2021, 7:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Batman View Post
So here's a hypothetical for the brain trust. I've got a friend. He bought a BB AR15 from Turners when in was legal before all this. He didn't realize he had to register it, so it's now an unregistered AW. I told him to pop the upper off the lower for now.
That is what I tell folks to do too, keep the upper and lower separated and convert to what you think is the best way to go (fixed magazine or featureless). What I was told is whatever you do with compliant conversions, remember to remove the bullet button with it. Apparently, the state wrote the law in a manner that the bullet button is a key assault weapon component if it is still on the rifle, even with a fixed magazine or featureless build. Other than a way to push folks to register their rifles as assault weapons, I have no idea why the state that started the bullet button now considers it a component of assault weapons.

Even with reopening the registration process, this is still a mess of a bill. Only helps those who tried to register but still does nothing to the hundreds of thousands of folks here in California that have no clue of these laws. It is sad, shameful, and frustrating all at the same time.

Last edited by cre8nhavoc; 03-31-2021 at 7:37 AM..
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  #85  
Old 03-31-2021, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cre8nhavoc View Post
That is what I tell folks to do too, keep the upper and lower separated and convert to what you think is the best way to go (fixed magazine or featureless). What I was told is whatever you do with compliant conversions, remember to remove the bullet button with it. Apparently, the state wrote the law in a manner that the bullet button is a key assault weapon component if it is still on the rifle, even with a fixed magazine or featureless build. Other than a way to push folks to register their rifles as assault weapons, I have no idea why the state that started the bullet button now considers it a component of assault weapons.

Even with reopening the registration process, this is still a mess of a bill. Only helps those who tried to register but still does nothing to the hundreds of thousands of folks here in California that have no clue of these laws. It is sad, shameful, and frustrating all at the same time.
Would a "free state" mode Raddlock on a featureless build be considered a BB? or standard mag release? (I'm guessing the right answer is, best not to be the test case)
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  #86  
Old 03-31-2021, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cyphr02 View Post
Would a "free state" mode Raddlock on a featureless build be considered a BB? or standard mag release? (I'm guessing the right answer is, best not to be the test case)
Hard to know unless there's a "test case" that determines that answer for us. Only other way to know for sure would be if DOJ publishes a determination about it, which they flat out refuse to do.

That said, in 4 years there still hasn't been a "test case", so either nobody has done this, or none of them have been caught, or nobody cares. Unfortunately I have no idea which of those it is.

At this point, nobody on our side has said it's ok, and nobody on their side has said it isn't. Gotta love this great state of CA, where you're expected to abide by laws that nobody can even understand.
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AW Reg. will likely be reopened summer '21 to those who weren't able to register by 7/18. We don't know what that means for firearms made compliant when reg. failed or if they can or must be converted to AW configuration before registering. There's a moratorium on prosecutions for possession of AWs which were eligible for registration, but AWs acquired after 2016 can still be prosecuted!
Extremely important note: DON'T register anything acquired after 2016!!!

Last edited by CandG; 03-31-2021 at 12:24 PM..
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  #87  
Old 03-31-2021, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cyphr02 View Post
Would a "free state" mode Raddlock on a featureless build be considered a BB? or standard mag release? (I'm guessing the right answer is, best not to be the test case)
Doesn't matter, its featureless so you can put any kind of magazine release on it that you want. Bullet Buttons are not illegal.
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  #88  
Old 03-31-2021, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Since he never started the AW registration, how 'effed up is he with this new ruling? Should he try once registration opens up?
To register now, he has to have tried to register it before the original 2018 deadline, and failed due to technical difficulties.

Would your friend be willing to sign a document stating that he did try to register it back then? Or testify to that in court under oath state he did try to register back then? Knowing perjury is a felony punishable by a 4-year maximum sentence? If he's willing to take that risk, then by all means try registering it.

I'm not speculating on how easy or difficult it would be to figure out whether he did try to register it before. Only that the penalty for perjury is worse than the one for possession of an unregistered assault weapon.
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  #89  
Old 03-31-2021, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
Doesn't matter, its featureless so you can put any kind of magazine release on it that you want. Bullet Buttons are not illegal.
Oops, you are correct - my post is relevant only for BB RAWs. I didn't catch where he said "featureless".

Indeed, it's silly and unnecessary to have anything other than a standard mag release on a featureless rifle.
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AW Reg. will likely be reopened summer '21 to those who weren't able to register by 7/18. We don't know what that means for firearms made compliant when reg. failed or if they can or must be converted to AW configuration before registering. There's a moratorium on prosecutions for possession of AWs which were eligible for registration, but AWs acquired after 2016 can still be prosecuted!
Extremely important note: DON'T register anything acquired after 2016!!!
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  #90  
Old 04-05-2021, 6:00 PM
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I know several people who could not even create an account at the registration website so there would be no record or way of knowing that they tried. I tried to help a friend declare a featureless plate receiver AK build and we could not get on the CFARS website at all. It was overwhelmed and unavailable. It seems to me that there is no way for them to challenge these facts. When they open the registration back up it will have to be to all. They do not have a leg to stand on trying to bar people given the incompetence of the initial effort.
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  #91  
Old 04-05-2021, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Caleb1911 View Post
I know several people who could not even create an account at the registration website so there would be no record or way of knowing that they tried. I tried to help a friend declare a featureless plate receiver AK build and we could not get on the CFARS website at all. It was overwhelmed and unavailable. It seems to me that there is no way for them to challenge these facts. When they open the registration back up it will have to be to all. They do not have a leg to stand on trying to bar people given the incompetence of the initial effort.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter if there is no "proof" that they tried. The fact is, they did try, so it will be no problem for them to check the box declaring so. The burden of proving otherwise falls on DOJ. I don't think they will actively seek out liars, aside from those which are obvious (people trying to register something acquired after the 12/31/2016 deadline, or people who were not eligible for registration at the time, as a few examples).

I wouldn't expect any hassles for people who legitimately could have registered the firearm(s) before the 7/1/2018 deadline.
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AW Reg. will likely be reopened summer '21 to those who weren't able to register by 7/18. We don't know what that means for firearms made compliant when reg. failed or if they can or must be converted to AW configuration before registering. There's a moratorium on prosecutions for possession of AWs which were eligible for registration, but AWs acquired after 2016 can still be prosecuted!
Extremely important note: DON'T register anything acquired after 2016!!!

Last edited by CandG; 04-05-2021 at 8:26 PM..
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  #92  
Old 04-05-2021, 8:27 PM
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Does anyone know if the judge/court has officially approved this settlement yet? The terms of it aren't technically in effect until that happens.

Edit: Whoops, somehow I missed the post at the top of this page. Settlement was approved on 3/29.
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AW Reg. will likely be reopened summer '21 to those who weren't able to register by 7/18. We don't know what that means for firearms made compliant when reg. failed or if they can or must be converted to AW configuration before registering. There's a moratorium on prosecutions for possession of AWs which were eligible for registration, but AWs acquired after 2016 can still be prosecuted!
Extremely important note: DON'T register anything acquired after 2016!!!

Last edited by CandG; 04-05-2021 at 8:32 PM..
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  #93  
Old 04-05-2021, 9:49 PM
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This is a win.....To it is only a loop hole for the D.O.J GOONS to know where to come knocking after BIDEN/HARRIS get CONGRESS to sign off on confiscation. Even if CONGRESS don't sign off on it, One of those two dictators will put their EXECUTIVE POWERS to evil use and bam just like that all of our 2A rights will be gone.And all of these court cases will blow away with the SANTA ANNA WINDS. THUGS WITH GUNS ARE A THREAT BUT A THUG WITH A PEN IS DOWN RIGHT DANGEROUS.
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  #94  
Old 04-05-2021, 11:43 PM
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To anyone reading this, I would recommend IF you're going to register, use the paper method. For the younger folks, it's called snail mail.

I know we live in this super tech advanced, whizz bang, electronic society, but just look at what happened last time. An electronic method that caused so much pain, hate and discontent and had the additional benefit of getting honest, hard working people in trouble.

Everyone went gaga over the electronic process last time and I went snail mail. Filed the form to get a couple of FMBUS numbers assigned to me. I mailed them off and got the letters back, assigning me my own chosen numbers, within about 3 weeks. No issues whatsoever doing it. People doing the lectronic thing about the same time as me sending the snail mail one, after many weeks, still didn't have it and what was more, they were still possibly going to have future issues.

Registered 1 bare receiver through snail mail too. Sent in the form, put "FRAME ONLY" in three places on the form, and had back that within about 2 weeks or so. No issues.

Moral of the stories: IF you're going to register these firearms/frames as RAWs or BBRAWs, then use snail mail with tracking and detailed information. Stop trusting the electrons.
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Last edited by Supersapper; 04-05-2021 at 11:44 PM.. Reason: syntax repair
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  #95  
Old 04-06-2021, 9:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Supersapper View Post
To anyone reading this, I would recommend IF you're going to register, use the paper method. For the younger folks, it's called snail mail.

I know we live in this super tech advanced, whizz bang, electronic society, but just look at what happened last time. An electronic method that caused so much pain, hate and discontent and had the additional benefit of getting honest, hard working people in trouble.

Everyone went gaga over the electronic process last time and I went snail mail. Filed the form to get a couple of FMBUS numbers assigned to me. I mailed them off and got the letters back, assigning me my own chosen numbers, within about 3 weeks. No issues whatsoever doing it. People doing the lectronic thing about the same time as me sending the snail mail one, after many weeks, still didn't have it and what was more, they were still possibly going to have future issues.

Registered 1 bare receiver through snail mail too. Sent in the form, put "FRAME ONLY" in three places on the form, and had back that within about 2 weeks or so. No issues.

Moral of the stories: IF you're going to register these firearms/frames as RAWs or BBRAWs, then use snail mail with tracking and detailed information. Stop trusting the electrons.
Perhaps you're misremembering. What you're describing was the serial number application process which, yes, that did have a snail mail option. But that was only the first part of the BBRAW process, and it was the only part which could be done by snail mail. If you did not do any electronic BBRAW registration, then you did not finish registering.

Additionally, your application for serial numbers could not have been for BBRAW, because for BBRAW's they did not allow you to choose your own SN - they only provided DOJ-generated numbers for BBRAW registration USNA applications.

It sounds like what you did was a simple Voluntary Registration of a non-assault weapon. I hope you didn't think it was a registered AW this whole time.

Again, there was no non-electronic BBRAW registration. If you think you successfully registered your firearms as BBRAW by snail mail, then you are mistaken.

Also, nobody "went gaga" over electronic AW registration. We had no other registration mediums available, and absolutely nobody was happy about it.




.
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AW Reg. will likely be reopened summer '21 to those who weren't able to register by 7/18. We don't know what that means for firearms made compliant when reg. failed or if they can or must be converted to AW configuration before registering. There's a moratorium on prosecutions for possession of AWs which were eligible for registration, but AWs acquired after 2016 can still be prosecuted!
Extremely important note: DON'T register anything acquired after 2016!!!

Last edited by CandG; 04-06-2021 at 9:36 AM..
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  #96  
Old 04-06-2021, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CandG View Post
Perhaps you're misremembering. What you're describing was the serial number application process which, yes, that did have a snail mail option. But that was only the first part of the BBRAW process, and it was the only part which could be done by snail mail. If you did not do any electronic BBRAW registration, then you did not finish registering.

Additionally, your application for serial numbers could not have been for BBRAW, because for BBRAW's they did not allow you to choose your own SN - they only provided DOJ-generated numbers for BBRAW registration USNA applications.

It sounds like what you did was a simple Voluntary Registration of a non-assault weapon. I hope you didn't think it was a registered AW this whole time.

Again, there was no non-electronic BBRAW registration. If you think you successfully registered your firearms as BBRAW by snail mail, then you are mistaken.

Also, nobody "went gaga" over electronic AW registration. We had no other registration mediums available, and absolutely nobody was happy about it.




.
Oooops. I left what i said open to alternative interpretation. You are correct; all I did was VolReg a receiver and get a few FMBUS's.

I never registered a BBRAW or even a RAW. What I was saying was that no one should use the electronic method at all and referenced what happened last time to support my statement. I was simply relating what i saw as a disasterous situation with a new website and, working for the government, I know that anytime they do something new like this, it will not work. Ever.

I chose to get 3 FMBUS numbers and register a bare receiver because I knew the site would not work. What this did was allow me to build it an any configuration that was or would be legal to own at any given time, since it is only a frame. BB illegal? Fine, remove it. Only allowed a break top? Fine install the Maglock. Decide to go featureless? No problem. They finally nullify all of the stupidity and allow AR series rifles in the original config? YAY!!! back to original. I'm just not allowed to make it go "brrrrrrp" when it fires. That requires a tax stamp, etc.

BBRAW and RAW was the furthest thing from my mind. The laws are and were so convoluted I was trying to learn from other's mistakes and just not do it. I did it all by snail mail and it worked without so much as a hiccup. Got my letters in acouple of weeks.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Last edited by Supersapper; 04-06-2021 at 5:52 PM..
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  #97  
Old 04-06-2021, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Caleb1911 View Post
I know several people who could not even create an account at the registration website so there would be no record or way of knowing that they tried. I tried to help a friend declare a featureless plate receiver AK build and we could not get on the CFARS website at all. It was overwhelmed and unavailable. It seems to me that there is no way for them to challenge these facts. When they open the registration back up it will have to be to all. They do not have a leg to stand on trying to bar people given the incompetence of the initial effort.
Your friend will be able to truthfully affirm under penalty of perjury that he tried and was unable to. Others may have to make the decision for themselves at their peril.
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Last edited by ohsmily; 04-06-2021 at 11:14 PM..
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  #98  
Old 04-21-2021, 12:56 PM
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What is the difference between trying to register now as a RAW vs BBRAW? Is it completely up to me to decide which way to go? I was unable to even get past the front page during the original period.
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Old 04-21-2021, 1:34 PM
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What is the difference between trying to register now as a RAW vs BBRAW? Is it completely up to me to decide which way to go? I was unable to even get past the front page during the original period.
If you decide to register now, it has to be done as a BBRAW; that is, you can't register anything that doesn't have a "bullet button", and you can't register anything you didn't own before 1/1/2017, or anything that wasn't eligible to be registered during the 2017-2018 window.

There is no "deciding which way to register". You can either decide not to register at all (keep it as a featureless or fixed-mag weapon), or you can decide to register it, in which case it will be treated exactly the same as a BBRAW that was registered in 2017-2018. This is simply a "do over" for those who were eligible to register in that window, but who missed the deadline because the registration system crashed. It is not an opportunity to do anything besides that.
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AW Reg. will likely be reopened summer '21 to those who weren't able to register by 7/18. We don't know what that means for firearms made compliant when reg. failed or if they can or must be converted to AW configuration before registering. There's a moratorium on prosecutions for possession of AWs which were eligible for registration, but AWs acquired after 2016 can still be prosecuted!
Extremely important note: DON'T register anything acquired after 2016!!!

Last edited by CandG; 04-21-2021 at 1:45 PM..
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  #100  
Old 04-21-2021, 2:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CandG View Post
If you decide to register now, it has to be done as a BBRAW; that is, you can't register anything that doesn't have a "bullet button", and you can't register anything you didn't own before 1/1/2017, or anything that wasn't eligible to be registered during the 2017-2018 window.

There is no "deciding which way to register". You can either decide not to register at all (keep it as a featureless or fixed-mag weapon), or you can decide to register it, in which case it will be treated exactly the same as a BBRAW that was registered in 2017-2018. This is simply a "do over" for those who were eligible to register in that window, but who missed the deadline because the registration system crashed. It is not an opportunity to do anything besides that.
So essentially it would still have to have a maglock and would now be subject to RAW specific transportation rules, etc? And doing anything to it that would change it from a BBRAW to a RAW configuration would be illegal? Why even bother lol might as well just do one of the other options you listed (leaning towards featureless). This is not the magic “new window for RAWs” everyone said it would be. Thanks for answering. I used to be up on all the laws and give advice on here daily, but I’ve been out of the scene and industry for the last six years as my firearms have collected dust the safe
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Old 04-21-2021, 3:21 PM
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So essentially it would still have to have a maglock and would now be subject to RAW specific transportation rules, etc?
Yes, but the maglock can be a simple "bullet button" or raddlock, rather than what people have to use nowadays with the full-blown mag lock that requires disassembly of the action to change mags.

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And doing anything to it that would change it from a BBRAW to a RAW configuration would be illegal?
Not exactly - the only RAW thing you can't do with a BBRAW is remove the bullet button. You can do anything else that anyone with any RAW can do. You would be free to add or change any other AW characteristics that you want. You can make it as short as 26" OAL, you can use 30rd mags, you can have a collapsing stock with a normal pistol grip, a flash hider, a forward pistol grip, etc., or a combination of any or all of those things.

Featureless obviously can't have most of those features, mag-locked (non-RAW) rifles can have some of those features but can't run 11+ round mags and you have to disassemble the action to change mags. Neither can be < 30" OAL.

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Why even bother lol might as well just do one of the other options you listed (leaning towards featureless).
It's up to you. If you want to be able to have a normal stock, normal grip, normal flash hider, under 30" OAL, and run normal magazines, then this is the only option. Otherwise, yes, if some or all of those things aren't important to you then featureless or break-action fixed magazine are other options.

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Originally Posted by Anchors View Post
This is not the magic “new window for RAWs” everyone said it would be.
I don't recall seeing anybody promising or suggesting that. It has always been well known that this is simply a "do over" or second chance for people who wanted to and could have registered last time, but failed to for whatever reason.

I'm not here to talk anyone into (or out of) registering this time around, that's a decision everyone will have to make on their own. I just want to make sure everyone knows the potential pros and cons so they can make an informed decision. There certainly are some cons that go with registration as well; as you pointed out, the transport and storage requirements, the transfer restrictions, etc. Not to mention the risk of messing something up on the app and getting a DOJ door-knock.
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AW Reg. will likely be reopened summer '21 to those who weren't able to register by 7/18. We don't know what that means for firearms made compliant when reg. failed or if they can or must be converted to AW configuration before registering. There's a moratorium on prosecutions for possession of AWs which were eligible for registration, but AWs acquired after 2016 can still be prosecuted!
Extremely important note: DON'T register anything acquired after 2016!!!

Last edited by CandG; 04-21-2021 at 3:52 PM..
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  #102  
Old 04-22-2021, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CandG View Post
Yes, but the maglock can be a simple "bullet button" or raddlock, rather than what people have to use nowadays with the full-blown mag lock that requires disassembly of the action to change mags.



Not exactly - the only RAW thing you can't do with a BBRAW is remove the bullet button. You can do anything else that anyone with any RAW can do. You would be free to add or change any other AW characteristics that you want. You can make it as short as 26" OAL, you can use 30rd mags, you can have a collapsing stock with a normal pistol grip, a flash hider, a forward pistol grip, etc., or a combination of any or all of those things.

Featureless obviously can't have most of those features, mag-locked (non-RAW) rifles can have some of those features but can't run 11+ round mags and you have to disassemble the action to change mags. Neither can be < 30" OAL.



It's up to you. If you want to be able to have a normal stock, normal grip, normal flash hider, under 30" OAL, and run normal magazines, then this is the only option. Otherwise, yes, if some or all of those things aren't important to you then featureless or break-action fixed magazine are other options.



I don't recall seeing anybody promising or suggesting that. It has always been well known that this is simply a "do over" or second chance for people who wanted to and could have registered last time, but failed to for whatever reason.

I'm not here to talk anyone into (or out of) registering this time around, that's a decision everyone will have to make on their own. I just want to make sure everyone knows the potential pros and cons so they can make an informed decision. There certainly are some cons that go with registration as well; as you pointed out, the transport and storage requirements, the transfer restrictions, etc. Not to mention the risk of messing something up on the app and getting a DOJ door-knock.
I didn’t mean this second round for BBRAW that some people weren’t able to get to before, I meant back when this new registration was originally imminent, some people thought it would mean you could register it as a RAW and remove your maglock. However, the fact that I could now run +10 round mags in the BBRAW since I do have some legal ones is quite attractive. This is a tough call hmm. May just go featureless. Idk. Thank you for sharing the info, I’m way too out of the loop these days.
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Old 04-23-2021, 4:20 AM
darkwater34 darkwater34 is offline
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REGISTRATION WILL BE MEANS FOR CONFISCATION with what happened in NEVADA over home made firearms CALIFORNIA is NEXT.
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  #104  
Old 04-23-2021, 2:52 PM
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Too bad for me, a few months ago the DOJ came to my house to take a pistol they made impossible for me to register because they drug out the process for so long. They waited so long that my co-registrants proof of residency (car registration) expired and she didn't have anything else in her name. (car was totaled and not replaced). While my stuff was all good and current, they wouldn't complete the process without her proof of residency and would not let me take her name off of the BBAW registration application because they said that was starting a new application and the application period had closed.
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