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Coronavirus/COVID19 Temp Forum This is a temporary forum for discussion, debate, sharing and helping each other during and in relation to the Coronavirus/COVID19

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  #201  
Old 04-21-2021, 1:47 PM
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  #202  
Old 04-21-2021, 1:50 PM
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^^^ kudos to the patron!
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  #203  
Old 04-21-2021, 2:26 PM
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Thanks for clarifying my response. Agree with your earlier comment too but feeling crappy after a vaccine probs not sufficient justification to support not getting it under a disability accommodation analysis. The murky part is potential for worse, but again thatís just conjecture. 10/10 an employer mandating vaccines will overrule an objection on a ground like that if they have any legitimate undue hardship argument (like if theyíre in healthcare, etc).
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It appears that you arent following what is being discussed.

This is NOT a thread about whether people should choose whether or not to get vaccinated, or whether people support the state of the law.

What is IS is a thread about whether you can be fired for not getting vaccinated under current California law.
To clarify, I wasn't advocating that employers should be allowed to do it under all circumstances, just what the state said. But I think kali did a crappy job of addressing this and should NOT allow a blanket requirement by all employers in all circumstances. ESPECIALLY if a person has antibodies, because getting vaccinated appears to be detrimental to that person's health.
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  #204  
Old 04-21-2021, 2:28 PM
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^^^ kudos to the patron!
And she's too dense for his message to sink in.
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  #205  
Old 04-21-2021, 2:37 PM
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To clarify, I wasn't advocating that employers should be allowed to do it under all circumstances, just what the state said. But I think kali did a crappy job of addressing this and should NOT allow a blanket requirement by all employers in all circumstances. ESPECIALLY if a person has antibodies, because getting vaccinated appears to be detrimental to that person's health.
And I agree with you. As someone who practices law in this area, it is fascinating to me to watch this kind of thing play out. California, despite being an at will state, is pretty pro worker. Yet they are also "woke" and, of course, that means masking, distance, and everything else to combat the 'rona.

These two positions collide when they let employers force vaccination, but it's what the state WANTS, so my guess is it will stay this way.

I do not advocate for forced vaccinations, despite my contempt for antivaxxers.
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  #206  
Old 04-21-2021, 2:38 PM
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How is it "audacity"? I never understood why someone who HAS to please people, like comedians, movie "stars", and, well, wait staff, would insist on alienating anyone. ANYONE. Why make any portion of your fan base angry?

Just shut up and perform, don't give me a reason to dislike you.
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  #207  
Old 04-21-2021, 2:40 PM
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Service with a smile? Maybe they thought she was scowling at them the whole time under that mask
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  #208  
Old 04-21-2021, 3:49 PM
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I would have also left a phone message for the manager to say I was offended by the employee and would not be back. Hopefully she would find herself on the radar screen additional scrutiny and eventual for termination.

We have to fightback against these fools.
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  #209  
Old 04-21-2021, 4:26 PM
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Most likely fake.
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  #210  
Old 04-21-2021, 4:42 PM
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Most likely fake.
Agreed. I donít believe any of these stupid receipt things have ever been real. Losers making hoaxes looking for attention. Should be locked up in an asylum to deal with their psychosis.
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  #211  
Old 04-21-2021, 8:21 PM
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From that DFEH thing;
This is all part of the SAME ANSWER to the question. Getting nit-picky about the words "authorized" and "approved" is stupid because the DFEH thing clearly uses them interchangeably.
Like I said before, this part of the DFEH is written in such a way as to give the reader the impression that Covid-19 vaccines can be mandated, but that's just California trickery. Clearly in the answer, they dance around whether or not an employer has the right to mandate an EUA vaccine. The state does not have the authority to allow employers to mandate an EUA vaccination, they know this and that is why they don't answer the question directly. This sentence is a clue.

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Here, DFEH does not provide guidance on whether or to what extent an employer should mandate vaccination within its workforce.
Also notice that they completely leave out the acronym EUA from the entire answer, which is an important detail of the current Covid vaccines.

As someone posted earlier, a provision in the EUA statute.

Specifically, under 21 U.S.C. ß 360bbb-3(e)(1)(A)(ii)(III), each individual must be informed ďof the option to accept or refuse administration of the product, of the consequences, if any, of refusing administration of the product, and of the alternatives to the product that are available and of their benefits and risks.Ē

This article does a fair job of explaining EUA and mandates, I suggest reading it.
https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10....2.410237/full/

To think that an employer has the authority to mandate an experimental, not properly tested, with no long-term studies done to prove safety and efficacy or lose your job, is just ridiculous on its face.
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  #212  
Old 04-21-2021, 8:24 PM
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Agreed. I don’t believe any of these stupid receipt things have ever been real. Losers making hoaxes looking for attention. Should be locked up in an asylum to deal with their psychosis.
And what sort of proof would you accept? I'm the guy that would do exactly that. If the waitress is willing to do that, I'm willing to send the message.

Maybe this particular one is fake, maybe not, but I am telling you that I would do exactly what's there. If my waitress wants to make a political statement in addition to doing her job, then she risks her tip. But I want her to know exactly why she's getting nothing. Work is for work...not politics.

BTW...I would think if they wanted attention, they wouldn't surreptitiously write it on the receipt that the waitress will deal with after they've gone. I would think they'd have made a case of it with the manager right then. THAT would be attention getting.
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  #213  
Old 04-21-2021, 11:16 PM
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I would have asked for a different waitress ! Yea it true, ALL lives matter, maybe the scriptures matter here : God is not wanting anyone to perish etc. Oh, I just remembered, some people don't care for all lives, just their own political BS.

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  #214  
Old 04-22-2021, 9:10 AM
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And what sort of proof would you accept? I'm the guy that would do exactly that. If the waitress is willing to do that, I'm willing to send the message.

Maybe this particular one is fake, maybe not, but I am telling you that I would do exactly what's there. If my waitress wants to make a political statement in addition to doing her job, then she risks her tip. But I want her to know exactly why she's getting nothing. Work is for work...not politics.

BTW...I would think if they wanted attention, they wouldn't surreptitiously write it on the receipt that the waitress will deal with after they've gone. I would think they'd have made a case of it with the manager right then. THAT would be attention getting.
It might be more believable if the people doing that crap did the posting and not the victim olympics hopeful. The people wanting the attention are the victim recipients, not the people writing on the receipts.
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  #215  
Old 04-22-2021, 10:44 AM
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It is written in language of EUA, no need to discus.
https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10....2.410237/full/

Specifically, under 21 U.S.C. ß 360bbb-3(e)(1)(A)(ii)(III), each individual must be informed ďof the option to accept or refuse administration of the product, of the consequences, if any, of refusing administration of the product, and of the alternatives to the product that are available and of their benefits and risks.Ē
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Yes, I agree, it's pointless. Just don't want anyone getting duped into the nonsense.

A friend of mine works at a hospital and said the vaccine was pushed on the staff but most of them refused it, so they pretty much left it alone.
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YOUR OWN SOURCE, which you apparently havent bothered to read, opens with this paragraph:

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recently issued two Emergency Use Authorizations (EUAs) for Covid-19 vaccines, and may soon issue a third. Public health officials have begun vaccine administration via state-based priority access plans. Discussion of vaccine mandates is plentiful, including the potential for state-issued orders and private directives from employers and other non-governmental entities. What remains unclear is the legality of mandates for EUA vaccines.

Tell me again how ďtheres no need to discussĒ, oh wise arbiter of what the law is.
Cut and run, is it?

How positively upstanding of you.
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  #216  
Old 04-22-2021, 11:09 AM
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iíll get one when the illegal aliens are forced to get one


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Bingo right here. When all the illegals are forced to get one, then I might consider it. Until then, not a snowballs chance in hell would I even consider it.


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  #217  
Old 04-22-2021, 11:16 AM
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Bingo right here. When all the illegals are forced to get one, then I might consider it. Until then, not a snowballs chance in hell would I even consider it.


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how would you even know?... .gov and media: "our guests from south of the border are all fully vaccinated"...

That's how it would go... is that enough for you?
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  #218  
Old 04-22-2021, 11:18 AM
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how would you even know?... .gov and media: "our guests from south of the border are all fully vaccinated"...

That's how it would go... is that enough for you?

Emphasis on Ďconsiderí


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  #219  
Old 04-22-2021, 11:22 AM
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Emphasis on Ďconsiderí


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I wouldn't even consider it... I don't trust any of the BS about it. They have effectively destroyed any chance of gaining my trust with anything to do with covid.
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  #220  
Old 04-22-2021, 12:18 PM
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Cut and run, is it?

How positively upstanding of you.
Cut and run? My last post expresses the exact opposite. To put it bluntly, you are completely wrong about experimental EUA vaccines and employer mandates. And if you are lawyer, though I doubt it, you shouldn't be duping others into believing that employers can make employees take an experimental, unproven, not properly tested vaccine.

Last edited by SPUTTER; 04-22-2021 at 12:30 PM..
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  #221  
Old 04-22-2021, 12:22 PM
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I wouldn't even consider it... I don't trust any of the BS about it. They have effectively destroyed any chance of gaining my trust with anything to do with covid.
Same here. I genuinely believe this is a V for Vendetta type event to seize control. I am being proven more correct every day.
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  #222  
Old 04-22-2021, 2:07 PM
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I wouldn't even consider it... I don't trust any of the BS about it. They have effectively destroyed any chance of gaining my trust with anything to do with covid.

I'm not a hard NO- just skeptical and reluctant. I don't like the fact that it's still EUA and I question why the Biden Admin has not made it mandatory to all members of the US Military. Until these issues are resolved to my satisfaction I'll sit on the sidelines a while longer.
The "Nudge" phase is over, I think we're now entering the "Push" phase of how the Gov gets it's subjects to do what it wants. Not looking forward to what the "Shove" is going to look like but I'm sure the powers that be have something in mind.
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  #223  
Old 04-22-2021, 2:15 PM
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Cut and run? My last post expresses the exact opposite. To put it bluntly, you are completely wrong about experimental EUA vaccines and employer mandates. And if you are lawyer, though I doubt it, you shouldn't be duping others into believing that employers can make employees take an experimental, unproven, not properly tested vaccine.
I wasnt talking to you. You've been here the whole time.

You didn't expose ANYTHING, though, you are the one who is trying to place emphasis on "approved" that the DHEH does not agree with. Your opinion on this is utterly irrelevant.

But I was writing for your comrade, who claims discussion is not needed, as it's settled, then linked an op ed piece that says it is NOT settled.

You're wrong, but I don't need you to acknowledge it.
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  #224  
Old 04-22-2021, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I wasnt talking to you. You've been here the whole time.

You didn't expose ANYTHING, though, you are the one who is trying to place emphasis on "approved" that the DHEH does not agree with. Your opinion on this is utterly irrelevant.

But I was writing for your comrade, who claims discussion is not needed, as it's settled, then linked an op ed piece that says it is NOT settled.

You're wrong, but I don't need you to acknowledge it.
You're right, my opinion is irrelevant but the facts aren't. An employer does not have the legal right to mandate an experimental vaccine on an employee or terminate their employment if they refuse.
As a lawyer, reading comprehension is an important skill and understanding that words do have meaning. I think anyone here that has analyzed the California gun laws can agree with that.
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  #225  
Old 04-22-2021, 3:50 PM
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You're right, my opinion is irrelevant but the facts aren't. An employer does not have the legal right to mandate an experimental vaccine on an employee or terminate their employment if they refuse.
As a lawyer, reading comprehension is an important skill and understanding that words do have meaning. I think anyone here that has analyzed the California gun laws can agree with that.
There is a GIGANTIC difference between a lawyer "analyzing" material, and, for example, a sovereign citizen bloviating about what they think the law says.
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  #226  
Old 04-22-2021, 4:05 PM
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Right, vaccine litigator. As a participant of a contract negotiating committee, I've gone over this issue with a few of our lawyers. They're opinion was that the company could not mandate the EUA vaccines. That's the opinion of lawyers who practice labor law. It was completely a non starter and not even brought to the table
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Old 04-22-2021, 8:53 PM
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I've read the entire thread and the issue is still as clear as mud.
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  #228  
Old 04-22-2021, 9:05 PM
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I've read the entire thread and the issue is still as clear as mud.
Kinda designed that way - imo.
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GET OFF MY CACTUS!
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  #229  
Old 04-22-2021, 11:20 PM
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ScottsBad ScottsBad is offline
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OP, My thoughts are that your company is both unethical and immoral. I treat employers of that type with the same respect they give me.

If I were in your shoes I would feel completely justified in acting against the company's interests when ever possible and in the smallest of ways. Just don't get caught and leave as soon as possible. Your company leadership is scum, think of them that way, don't help enrich the scum. Do your job but screw them any way possible until you find another job.

This isn't; I didn't get a raise, so I'm going to screw the company. This is; The company doesn't care about my medical wishes, they are acting immorally, so I will treat them with the same disrespect they are showing me.

Taking the high road, doesn't appear to result in any benefit anymore. We live in a different world now, if they are going to hurt you, potentially literally, then perhaps its time fight back. It seems that almost everything is becoming a war now.

If the company cares so little about you, why should you care about the company.

A company should respect their employee's wishes when it comes to health care choices. Rather than forcing employees to have a vaccination, I believe that it should be their choice to do so OR not.

The only exception to this might be a health care provider or an old folks home, etc.
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  #230  
Old 04-23-2021, 7:06 AM
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Right, vaccine litigator. As a participant of a contract negotiating committee, I've gone over this issue with a few of our lawyers. They're opinion was that the company could not mandate the EUA vaccines. That's the opinion of lawyers who practice labor law. It was completely a non starter and not even brought to the table
Good for you. I also litigate employment law, and itís not even a contract based issue, it has nothing to do with contracts. That article you were cited to by the guy who said it wasnt worth discussing OPENED with its not at all clear whether they can do it or not, so to claim itís a non starter is just wrong.

Believe whatever you want. Im certain that your amazing experience rivals my own meager honors graduation from a top 30 law school and a 31 year career litigating in this field.

You are amazing.
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Print it out and frame it for all I care
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I don't need to think at all..
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You are talking to someone who already won this lame conversation, not a brick a wall. Too bad you don't realize it.
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Unfortunately for you, I have the truth on my side and... Iím definitely better than you at what you make a living from.
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  #231  
Old 04-23-2021, 8:00 AM
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If the majority of employees favor the vaccine mandate the company will irrationally claim that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. Unless that employee is irreplaceable.
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  #232  
Old 04-23-2021, 9:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Good for you. I also litigate employment law, and itís not even a contract based issue, it has nothing to do with contracts. That article you were cited to by the guy who said it wasnt worth discussing OPENED with its not at all clear whether they can do it or not, so to claim itís a non starter is just wrong.

Believe whatever you want. Im certain that your amazing experience rivals my own meager honors graduation from a top 30 law school and a 31 year career litigating in this field.

You are amazing.
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  #233  
Old 04-23-2021, 9:41 AM
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For a mega legal mind like you to have to deal with me must be like me trying to talk to an ant, amiright? You are so awesome. You do whatever it is you do, AND you're better at my job, too.

Amazing.
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It's easy to be a keyboard warrior, you would melt like wax in front of me, you wouldn't be able to move your lips.
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Print it out and frame it for all I care
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Originally Posted by el chivo View Post
I don't need to think at all..
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Originally Posted by pjsig View Post
You are talking to someone who already won this lame conversation, not a brick a wall. Too bad you don't realize it.
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Originally Posted by Sgt. J Beezy View Post
Unfortunately for you, I have the truth on my side and... Iím definitely better than you at what you make a living from.
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  #234  
Old 04-23-2021, 9:46 AM
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/16482520421...UAAOSwXSJgfx0n

$6 job saver??

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  #235  
Old 04-23-2021, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Scota4570 View Post
The card on EBAY is not like the real cards I have seen. For starts is has no CDC logo.
The one above is the back of a card, the logo is on the other side. The side shown is the reminder for the 2d dose. It looks exactly like a real one, down to the number in the lower right corner.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony270 View Post
It's easy to be a keyboard warrior, you would melt like wax in front of me, you wouldn't be able to move your lips.
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Originally Posted by repubconserv View Post
Print it out and frame it for all I care
Quote:
Originally Posted by el chivo View Post
I don't need to think at all..
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjsig View Post
You are talking to someone who already won this lame conversation, not a brick a wall. Too bad you don't realize it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt. J Beezy View Post
Unfortunately for you, I have the truth on my side and... Iím definitely better than you at what you make a living from.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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  #236  
Old 04-23-2021, 2:12 PM
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You are going to want to print this on slightly heavy paper, almost card stock.
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  #237  
Old 04-24-2021, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Wahhh....
It can't be mandated.

To distill it further: you are the type that wishes they grew taller than 5'9". You can dish it out but can't take it without whining to the mods. A lot of us have proof.

KNOB! Gimme 10!

Last edited by bootstrap; 04-24-2021 at 11:02 PM..
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  #238  
Old 04-24-2021, 10:35 PM
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Is that even legal? There are some jobs where you are required to have specific vaccinations to be qualified to work or be licensed in that field, an EMT for example. But it is different to be an employee already than for them to come up with a new rule saying, ok, you now have to go get this shot (nonmedical job by the way) or you are fired. Is this legal?
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Last edited by CaliforniaCowboy; 04-24-2021 at 10:38 PM..
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  #239  
Old 04-24-2021, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaCowboy View Post
Is that even legal? There are some jobs where you are required to have specific vaccinations to be qualified to work or be licensed in that field, an EMT for example. But it is different to be an employee already than for them to come up with a new rule saying, ok, you now have to go get this shot (nonmedical job by the way) or you are fired. Is this legal?
It is illegal to force or coerce anyone into a medical experiment which all the covid jabs currently are.

Last edited by bootstrap; 04-24-2021 at 11:06 PM..
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  #240  
Old 04-24-2021, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bootstrap View Post
It is illegal to force or coerce anyone into a medical experiment which all the covid jabs currently are.
Iirc, the legal precedent for this has already been established. A similar matter was argued in the courts about 15-20 years ago regarding military members being forced to receive vaccinations for anthrax when the vaccination, much like the COVID vaccines right now, had been approved on emergency conditional purpose. The military lost. That's why they aren't forcing/can't force active duty military personnel to receive the COVID vaccine right now.

Furthermore, I don't understand how an employer can require vaccinations without violating HIPAA.

IANAL. These are just my opinions.

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