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Coronavirus/COVID19 Temp Forum This is a temporary forum for discussion, debate, sharing and helping each other during and in relation to the Coronavirus/COVID19

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  #161  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:29 AM
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CG87 if you are say christian and say it goes against your belief. Can the employer bring in another christian who say it doesn't go against the beliefs ? How would that work ?
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  #162  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SPUTTER View Post
I forgot to add, if you are concerned about the current unapproved experimental vaccine, an employer can't mandate it just based on the fact it's not properly tested. If they ever get approved, then it's a different story apparently.
The EEOC and DFEH have already suggested otherwise
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  #163  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:31 AM
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Originally Posted by blkoutdb View Post
CG87 if you are say christian and say it goes against your belief. Can the employer bring in another christian who say it doesn't go against the beliefs ? How would that work ?
I’d recommend getting a letter from your spiritual leader, pastor, etc. and have some scriptural backup. They usually won’t just take your word for it
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  #164  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:32 AM
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Oh it doesn't apply to me at all. I'm just curious haha
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  #165  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:50 AM
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CG87 if you are say christian and say it goes against your belief. Can the employer bring in another christian who say it doesn't go against the beliefs ? How would that work ?
Likely. They arent forced to take anything you say at face value. Expect the other side to challenge such claims. As an example, if someone claimed their strong catholic faith prohibits them from being vaccinated, i know for a fact that there is no papal or other directive. There is some concern over one of the three being made through the use of aborted fetal tissue, but thats not a blanket “dont get vaccinated” directive.

Bottom line, if you’re going to make claims like that, youd better be able to prove them.
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  #166  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:51 AM
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The EEOC and DFEH have already suggested otherwise
He can’t be reached. Hes on that fake high where he thinks he knows more than an attorney who practices in this area. Heady stuff.
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  #167  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:57 AM
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Thanks CG87!
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  #168  
Old 04-20-2021, 10:42 AM
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Tell them it's just like abortion - my body, my choice!
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  #169  
Old 04-20-2021, 11:23 AM
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Thanks CG87!
No problem!
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  #170  
Old 04-20-2021, 4:11 PM
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The EEOC and DFEH have already suggested otherwise
I suggest you read them a bit more slowly.
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  #171  
Old 04-20-2021, 4:23 PM
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K, Thanx, BYE!

In a mild violation of my own rules...

F*** your mandatory vaccine and F*** you if you want to try to force it on me.
Worthy of a bump!
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  #172  
Old 04-20-2021, 5:56 PM
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I suggest you read them a bit more slowly.
https://www.dfeh.ca.gov/wp-content/u...19-FAQ_ENG.pdf

please educate yourself. DFEH has already provided guidance in the above link as to how an employer can go about requiring vaccinations in the workplace (i.e., by complying with the FEHA and ADA).
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  #173  
Old 04-20-2021, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rklapper View Post
https://www.dfeh.ca.gov/wp-content/u...19-FAQ_ENG.pdf

please educate yourself. DFEH has already provided guidance in the above link as to how an employer can go about requiring vaccinations in the workplace (i.e., by complying with the FEHA and ADA).
I'm not going to argue with you. I've read the dfeh and of course California has written it in a vague and unclear manner but there's a difference between unapproved and approved. "Authorized" is unapproved. It's unethical to mandate an experimental medical intervention and illegal worldwide. If you don't understand it, that's on you and don't bother wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise.
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  #174  
Old 04-20-2021, 6:43 PM
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Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
If it's employer mandated, and you have any issues near term or long term, wouldn't that trigger a worker's comp claim?

Would having the mandate in writing aid in future worker's comp claims?

.
You would need to prove the vaccine caused the issues.
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  #175  
Old 04-20-2021, 8:01 PM
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You would need to prove the vaccine caused the issues.
Didn't need to prove covid was caught at the workplace.
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  #176  
Old 04-20-2021, 8:48 PM
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I'm not going to argue with you. I've read the dfeh and of course California has written it in a vague and unclear manner but there's a difference between unapproved and approved. "Authorized" is unapproved. It's unethical to mandate an experimental medical intervention and illegal worldwide. If you don't understand it, that's on you and don't bother wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise.
What’s “ethical” has no relevance as to what’s legal under California employment law, which is why we’re talking about here. Please point me to any legal authority suggesting otherwise.
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  #177  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:12 PM
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It would be good if we could get some better facts and legal advice about this. Too many posters in this thread think boasting, or their skill in writing creative insults, is the best proof of their wisdom. The situation seems to be evolving rapidly and it's hard to figure out what's legit in time before you get fired... as of yet there is no NRA for people who don't want to get vaccinated, and it is hard to know whom to turn to.
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  #178  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:39 PM
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What’s “ethical” has no relevance as to what’s legal under California employment law, which is why we’re talking about here. Please point me to any legal authority suggesting otherwise.
Did I say that? I merely stated it's unethical to mandate an experimental medical intervention on a human being. You do understand the problem with that, right?

Now, go back to the dfeh and scroll down to the part that says, "May an employer require an employee to be vaccinated against Covid-19?" Read the answer. It clearly says "approved" vaccine. Are the current covid vaccines "approved"? No, they are not, they are just authorized for emergency use. For further information on that topic, go to the FDA website.

If you still don't understand it after reading it, then I can't help you because I'm not an English teacher.
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  #179  
Old 04-20-2021, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
YOUR OWN SOURCE, which you apparently havent bothered to read, opens with this paragraph:

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recently issued two Emergency Use Authorizations (EUAs) for Covid-19 vaccines, and may soon issue a third. Public health officials have begun vaccine administration via state-based priority access plans. Discussion of vaccine mandates is plentiful, including the potential for state-issued orders and private directives from employers and other non-governmental entities. What remains unclear is the legality of mandates for EUA vaccines.

Tell me again how “theres no need to discuss”, oh wise arbiter of what the law is.
It is crystal clear: you and your DS bulllies have been recently shot down repeatedly and your egos can't handle it. Are you defending the forced vax or the individual's right to choose? Pick a side. There is no middle ground.

Are you genuinely or willfully ignorant of the Nuremburg Code?

Last edited by bootstrap; 04-20-2021 at 10:21 PM..
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  #180  
Old 04-21-2021, 4:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Creeping Incrementalism View Post
It would be good if we could get some better facts and legal advice about this. Too many posters in this thread think boasting, or their skill in writing creative insults, is the best proof of their wisdom. The situation seems to be evolving rapidly and it's hard to figure out what's legit in time before you get fired... as of yet there is no NRA for people who don't want to get vaccinated, and it is hard to know whom to turn to.
I saved this fine post: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...&postcount=100

And this was posted somewhere - saved it too: https://www.americasfrontlinedoctors...ccines-the-law

And you're right, most of all threads (especially about covid) are just a bunch of bickering with very little substance.
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  #181  
Old 04-21-2021, 6:33 AM
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Dis gunna bee guud

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It is crystal clear: you and your DS bulllies have been recently shot down repeatedly and your egos can't handle it. Are you defending the forced vax or the individual's right to choose? Pick a side. There is no middle ground.

Are you genuinely or willfully ignorant of the Nuremburg Code?
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  #182  
Old 04-21-2021, 6:55 AM
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It is crystal clear: you and your DS bulllies have been recently shot down repeatedly and your egos can't handle it. Are you defending the forced vax or the individual's right to choose? Pick a side. There is no middle ground.

Are you genuinely or willfully ignorant of the Nuremburg Code?
Get a clue. We are discussing whether it can be mandated or not. Not whether i agree with the fact that its legal. Can you not differentiate between those two?

If i tell someone that it is illegal under CA law to buy a 30 round magazine today, am i a DOJ bully? Am i supporting the law?

Anyone who conflates a discussion of what the law is with support for the law is incapable of having an adult conversation.

Are you genuinely or willfully ignorant of the difference between discussing a law and supporting a law?

Edit: to distill it further, you’re the guy who gets arrested, hires a lawyer to deal with the issue, then rages at the lawyer for telling you that you are in trouble.
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Last edited by Citadelgrad87; 04-21-2021 at 6:58 AM..
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  #183  
Old 04-21-2021, 7:19 AM
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  #184  
Old 04-21-2021, 7:35 AM
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You have a right to deny it on grounds of religious liberty due to it deriving from cell lines of aborted baby's. #prolife

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  #185  
Old 04-21-2021, 8:19 AM
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Did I say that? I merely stated it's unethical to mandate an experimental medical intervention on a human being. You do understand the problem with that, right?

Now, go back to the dfeh and scroll down to the part that says, "May an employer require an employee to be vaccinated against Covid-19?" Read the answer. It clearly says "approved" vaccine. Are the current covid vaccines "approved"? No, they are not, they are just authorized for emergency use. For further information on that topic, go to the FDA website.

If you still don't understand it after reading it, then I can't help you because I'm not an English teacher.
Not an English teacher but this is my field and I can tell you parsing words like that won’t help in this case since the DFEH and EEOC are not distinguishing between “approved” vs “authorized” for purposes of determining whether an employer can mandate a vaccine. The answer is: they can, subject to normal discrimination laws/analysis.
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  #186  
Old 04-21-2021, 8:38 AM
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Seems like we only have two practical choices..
Be fired or get the vax.

Most don't have the time or funds to initiate a precident lawsuit.
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  #187  
Old 04-21-2021, 8:56 AM
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You have a right to deny it on grounds of religious liberty due to it deriving from cell lines of aborted baby's. #prolife

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Only one of the three is derived from aborted tissue, IIRC. I think the J and J.
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  #188  
Old 04-21-2021, 9:04 AM
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As an aside the Pfizer and Moderna used reproduced fetal cells to test efficacy of their vaccines.
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  #189  
Old 04-21-2021, 9:06 AM
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Not an English teacher but this is my field and I can tell you parsing words like that won’t help in this case since the DFEH and EEOC are not distinguishing between “approved” vs “authorized” for purposes of determining whether an employer can mandate a vaccine. The answer is: they can, subject to normal discrimination laws/analysis.
Like I said before, refer to the FDA website. The FDA makes a clear distinction between "FDA approved" and "FDA Emergency Use Authorization". The two are not the same and the current covid vaccines are cleared for EUA only.
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  #190  
Old 04-21-2021, 9:58 AM
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Not an English teacher but this is my field and I can tell you parsing words like that won’t help in this case since the DFEH and EEOC are not distinguishing between “approved” vs “authorized” for purposes of determining whether an employer can mandate a vaccine. The answer is: they can, subject to normal discrimination laws/analysis.
That's very dangerous. I saw something recently that if you have antibodies from having caught the rona and then get a vaccine, people have felt like crap, sometimes worse. There's a "dueling antibodies" effect. That might be why the second shot tends to kick people's *ss too. I heard on the radio today a woman say she had the rona last year and just the first shot kicked her *ss.

If I had the rona, there's no way I would take the needle. You don't have to have caught the rona to have antibodies either. Any exposure to the virus, even with a virus load too small to give you the disease, can kick off an immune response. That might also partially explain why estimates are that people with antibodies are 10x ones that tested positive.
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  #191  
Old 04-21-2021, 10:11 AM
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Like I said before, refer to the FDA website. The FDA makes a clear distinction between "FDA approved" and "FDA Emergency Use Authorization". The two are not the same and the current covid vaccines are cleared for EUA only.
Doesn't much matter what the FDA said, it's what kali says.

From that DFEH thing;
Quote:
VACCINATION
May an employer require its employees to be vaccinated against COVID-19?
Short Answer
: Under the FEHA, an employer may require employees to receive an FDA-approved vaccination against COVID-19 infection so long as the employer does not discriminate against or harass employees or job applicants on the basis of a protected characteristic, provides reasonable accommodations related to disability or sincerely-held religious beliefs or practices, and does not retaliate against anyone for engaging in protected activity (such as requesting a reasonable accommodation).

Explanation
: The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) authorized and recommended three vaccines against COVID-19 infection, and the FDA may approve other vaccines for use in the United States. As safe and effective vaccines against COVID-19 infection become more widely available, employers may wish to encourage their employees to get vaccinated. Here, DFEH does not provide guidance on whether or to what extent an employer should mandate vaccination within its workforce. Rather, this FAQ and the following FAQs address how an employer complies with the FEHA if it decides to require employees to be vaccinated against COVID-19 infection with an FDA-approved vaccine. The FEHA prohibits discrimination and harassment on the basis of a protected characteristic; therefore, if an employer mandates or encourages vaccination in its workforce, the employer’s vaccination policy or practice must not discriminate against or harass employees or job applicants based on a protected characteristic, such as disability, perceived disability, or religion.
This is all part of the SAME ANSWER to the question. Getting nit-picky about the words "authorized" and "approved" is stupid because the DFEH thing clearly uses them interchangeably.
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  #192  
Old 04-21-2021, 10:19 AM
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Doesn't much matter what the FDA said, it's what kali says.

From that DFEH thing;


This is all part of the SAME ANSWER to the question. Getting nit-picky about the words "authorized" and "approved" is stupid because the DFEH thing clearly uses them interchangeably.
Thanks for clarifying my response. Agree with your earlier comment too but feeling crappy after a vaccine probs not sufficient justification to support not getting it under a disability accommodation analysis. The murky part is potential for worse, but again that’s just conjecture. 10/10 an employer mandating vaccines will overrule an objection on a ground like that if they have any legitimate undue hardship argument (like if they’re in healthcare, etc).
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  #193  
Old 04-21-2021, 10:32 AM
Scota4570 Scota4570 is offline
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None of these details and theories should matter.

There should be no justification necessary for one's choice.

Not being vaccinated has no impact on those who choose to be vaccinated. Since they have no damages, and no reasonable expectation of future damages, they have no standing to take action.

It seems we have turned our backs on the traditional system of law.

Last edited by Scota4570; 04-21-2021 at 10:34 AM..
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  #194  
Old 04-21-2021, 12:09 PM
rklapper rklapper is offline
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Originally Posted by Scota4570 View Post
None of these details and theories should matter.

There should be no justification necessary for one's choice.

Not being vaccinated has no impact on those who choose to be vaccinated. Since they have no damages, and no reasonable expectation of future damages, they have no standing to take action.

It seems we have turned our backs on the traditional system of law.
Lots of holes in this argument, but the easiest is to imagine if you work in a hospital, choose not to get vaccinated, and contract a disease that then sickens your immunocompromised patient population.
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  #195  
Old 04-21-2021, 1:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Scota4570 View Post
None of these details and theories should matter.

There should be no justification necessary for one's choice.

Not being vaccinated has no impact on those who choose to be vaccinated. Since they have no damages, and no reasonable expectation of future damages, they have no standing to take action.

It seems we have turned our backs on the traditional system of law.

100%

It appears that many have forgotten how to stand up for themselves.


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  #196  
Old 04-21-2021, 1:22 PM
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100%

It appears that many have forgotten how to stand up for themselves.


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It appears that you arent following what is being discussed.

This is NOT a thread about whether people should choose whether or not to get vaccinated, or whether people support the state of the law.

What is IS is a thread about whether you can be fired for not getting vaccinated under current California law.
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  #197  
Old 04-21-2021, 1:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
It appears that you arent following what is being discussed.

This is NOT a thread about whether people should choose whether or not to get vaccinated, or whether people support the state of the law.

What is IS is a thread about whether you can be fired for not getting vaccinated under current California law.
actually that's not what the thread is about... it morphed into that - but it's not the thread topic.
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GET OFF MY CACTUS!
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  #198  
Old 04-21-2021, 1:47 PM
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  #199  
Old 04-21-2021, 1:50 PM
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^^^ kudos to the patron!
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Music is magic - Wisdom is golden - Learning to navigate life better as we age is amazing and a choice.
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It only has as much power as you give it.
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I know some things about a lot of things - and a lot of things about some things - but I don't know everything about anything
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GET OFF MY CACTUS!
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  #200  
Old 04-21-2021, 2:26 PM
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Thanks for clarifying my response. Agree with your earlier comment too but feeling crappy after a vaccine probs not sufficient justification to support not getting it under a disability accommodation analysis. The murky part is potential for worse, but again that’s just conjecture. 10/10 an employer mandating vaccines will overrule an objection on a ground like that if they have any legitimate undue hardship argument (like if they’re in healthcare, etc).
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
It appears that you arent following what is being discussed.

This is NOT a thread about whether people should choose whether or not to get vaccinated, or whether people support the state of the law.

What is IS is a thread about whether you can be fired for not getting vaccinated under current California law.
To clarify, I wasn't advocating that employers should be allowed to do it under all circumstances, just what the state said. But I think kali did a crappy job of addressing this and should NOT allow a blanket requirement by all employers in all circumstances. ESPECIALLY if a person has antibodies, because getting vaccinated appears to be detrimental to that person's health.
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