700 Bolt Handle Welding

[LynnJr]

I know Dan Armstrong in Fairbanks Alaska can tig weld 4 handles on for $270 shipped and insured.

Can anyone in California match that deal?

[kcstott]

are you talking just tig welding an existing handle that is currently on the bolt to over come the issue of the solder? or are you talking about replacement handles on bolts??

[LynnJr]

I have 4 new PT&G bolt bodies and need the PT&G handles silver soldered or welded on.
Just looking for someone a bit closer to northern california that can do the job.

[fish45]

Not for 70 ish dollars each.

If they’re not going into actions that have been trued with the bolt that should be done first to avoid timing or clearance issues.

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by fish45

Not for 70 ish dollars each.

If they’re not going into actions that have been trued with the bolt that should be done first to avoid timing or clearance issues.

Yep.
Actions need to be shipped with bolt bodies for timing.
Bolts need to be fit to each action individually.
I’m out.

[G-forceJunkie]

..and if going with PGT bolts, why not one piece?

[LynnJr]

One piece bolts are the latest fad that don't allow you to time the bolt or allow you to reposition the handle after the lugs and abutments get cleaned up.
And yes the receivers are already fitted to each bolt body.

[edgerly779]

Must go to ffl if receivers go with them. If just bolts ask Randall ar15 down here.

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by LynnJr

One piece bolts are the latest fad that don't allow you to time the bolt or allow you to reposition the handle after the lugs and abutments get cleaned up.
And yes the receivers are already fitted to each bolt body.

And you're not going to do that once the handles are tig welded to the body's. which is the reason i said the actions have to go with the bolts, and be individually fitted and numbered to each action. There is no other way around it.

[ar15barrels]

Here is the fixture I made to hold bolt handles in alignment on the bolt body so I can check timing and alignment in the receiver before welding them:

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by LynnJr

One piece bolts are the latest fad that don't allow you to time the bolt or allow you to reposition the handle after the lugs and abutments get cleaned up.

I believe that PTG significantly tightened up the bolt handle location on the one piece bolts so that they will work with trued receivers because a PTG one piece bolt will just barely fit into a non-trued receiver compared to how sloppy a factory bolt is in an un-trued receiver.
I have not taken measurements and logged them to show the data, but the difference is quite noticeable on my workbench.

It usually only takes a few thousandths to clean up the lug abutments while truing and the PTG one piece bolts have MUCH more primary extraction cam engagement than an un-trued receiver with a factory bolt.

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

I believe that PTG significantly tightened up the bolt handle location on the one piece bolts so that they will work with trued receivers because a PTG one piece bolt will just barely fit into a non-trued receiver compared to how sloppy a factory bolt is in an un-trued receiver.
I have not taken measurements and logged them to show the data, but the difference is quite noticeable on my workbench.

It usually only takes a few thousandths to clean up the lug abutments while truing and the PTG one piece bolts have MUCH more primary extraction cam engagement than an un-trued receiver with a factory bolt.

you're lucky if you get any primary cam extraction on a factory action.
They usually have about 1/16" gap. this is on recently made actions too. Maybe back when they had a custom shop and you had to order a 40X things were better. but not in the last 25 years or so.

[fish45]

Originally Posted by kcstott

you're lucky if you get any primary cam extraction on a factory action.
They usually have about 1/16" gap. this is on recently made actions too. Maybe back when they had a custom shop and you had to order a 40X things were better. but not in the last 25 years or so.

That’s just not true. Most factory guns have more than enough. Very few Remington actions have a primary extraction problem. It might not be perfect but it’s generally there.

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by fish45

That’s just not true. Most factory guns have more than enough. Very few Remington actions have a primary extraction problem. It might not be perfect but it’s generally there.

If by “Generally there” you mean yeah there is a tiny trace of a rub on the cam showing that they do actually make contact, sure it’s there but it’s near useless.
I’ve retimed a lot of actions.
So let me ask you this. Why is it Remingtons have a bad reputation for bolt handles coming off?
I can tell you it’s not the solder job. It’s the lack of cam extraction that then requires a hammer to get the bolt open and the guy with the hammer knocks the handle off.

[Scotty]

Dan has a pretty fast turn around when I sent my bolt to him. I think it was in and out of his shop in a day. Total time was just over a week.

I'm not sure what he does with a new bolt, but with existing bolts he has a few measurements you need to provide for him to use for timing.

[fish45]

Originally Posted by kcstott

If by “Generally there” you mean yeah there is a tiny trace of a rub on the cam showing that they do actually make contact, sure it’s there but it’s near useless.
I’ve retimed a lot of actions.
So let me ask you this. Why is it Remingtons have a bad reputation for bolt handles coming off?
I can tell you it’s not the solder job. It’s the lack of cam extraction that then requires a hammer to get the bolt open and the guy with the hammer knocks the handle off.

Someone sees a problem MAYBE a handful of times and suddenly they all have problems... Common problems to a "gunsmith" and common problems to "everyone else" are two different things...

You've retimed actions...? Yea... Bolts I'd believe. Muzzle brakes I'd believe. Fluted barrels I'd believe. But actions...

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by fish45

Someone sees a problem MAYBE a handful of times and suddenly they all have problems... Common problems to a "gunsmith" and common problems to "everyone else" are two different things...

You've retimed actions...? Yea... Bolts I'd believe. Muzzle brakes I'd believe. Fluted barrels I'd believe. But actions...

Well call it what you like. No I do not change geometry on the action itself. The bolt and action are timed and tuned as a unit. You could say the same thing about blueprinting an action, Few really do check everything before they make a cut. so they have no clue where they started or what they did is actually going to make a difference.

[LynnJr]

The bolt bodies handles and receivers shipped out to Dan for timing and tig welding.
He has done more than a dozen for me already and only one was too tight without some filing work.
The bolt bodies are all oversized and the clearances are some of the tightest I have done.
Kind of shocked that nobody in California is doing this kind of work.

[SPC G]

http://www.baldwinboltjeweling.com/
Check out his website think he may be able to help had him do my bolt they turned out great and it worked fine no problems.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by fish45

You've retimed actions...? Yea...
Bolts I'd believe.
Muzzle brakes I'd believe.
Fluted barrels I'd believe.
But actions...

Primary extraction timing is the interface between the primary extraction cam on the bolt and the camming surface on the action.
You move the bolt handle forward/backward as well in rotation around the bolt to set the timing.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by LynnJr

Kind of shocked that nobody in California is doing this kind of work.

I do it.

[kendog4570]

Can you do it like Dan, without receiver, with the existing handle root to receiver measurement, and turn it mail order quickly? He does a great job, but can be a real pain to deal with, depending on what his blood alcohol level is. Also don't request much else on his website other than Rem work, or your in for a ride. I'll send mine to you if you can.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by kendog4570

Can you do it like Dan, without receiver, with the existing handle root to receiver measurement, and turn it mail order quickly?

Probably not.
I don't know what his welds look like and I am afraid to trust measurements from someone else on the handle location.
I can time the handle rotation based on the tail of the handle root aligning to the bolt lug raceway and I re-cut that square after welding but I don't know that I could trust working from a handle root to bolt lug length.
I use a 0.010" shim between the handle root and the receiver with the bolt lugs set tight against the receiver.
How much clearance does dan put there compared to the measurement he asks for?

My welding is functional but not pretty so I clean it up before refinishing.

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Probably not.
I don't know what his welds look like and I am afraid to trust measurements from someone else on the handle location.
I can time the handle rotation based on the tail of the handle root aligning to the bolt lug raceway and I re-cut that square after welding but I don't know that I could trust working from a handle root to bolt lug length.
I use a 0.010" shim between the handle root and the receiver with the bolt lugs set tight against the receiver.
How much clearance does dan put there compared to the measurement he asks for?

My welding is functional but not pretty so I clean it up before refinishing.

I sure couldn't trust the average customer to measure anything on an action.
I use .010" as well. Anything less and it's starts getting sticky in other areas. Tolerances start to appear and interfere with each other. I'm sure you know more about bolt timing and fitting then i do.

[LynnJr]

Yeah these are RR receivers and his quoted numbers over the phone sound nice but each bolt is setup to a specific action so I taped and marked them so they don't get mixed up.
And yes Kendog he can be a handful over the phone. I sent him a fitted bolt with zero clearance thinking he would measure it up and I would lap it in only to have him reject the job and send me a nasty letter.
I fitted it and sent it back the same day and he called to see how I was doing the fitting.
I will post pictures when they get back to me

[kendog4570]

Originally Posted by kcstott

I sure couldn't trust the average customer to measure anything on an action.
I use .010" as well. Anything less and it's starts getting sticky in other areas. Tolerances start to appear and interfere with each other. I'm sure you know more about bolt timing and fitting then i do.

His instructions are field strip (I think) the bolt, lift the handle about 1/3rd of its opening travel, then measure with a feeler gage the gap between the handle root and the back of the bridge. Write that measurement on some tape on the bolt and send it. He tightens it up to about .010. Have had several done by him over the years this way and they come out fine.
I have welded big innershield wire for a paycheck for years, but I suck at real fine TIG.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by kcstott

I sure couldn't trust the average customer to measure anything on an action.
I use .010" as well. Anything less and it's starts getting sticky in other areas. Tolerances start to appear and interfere with each other. I'm sure you know more about bolt timing and fitting then i do.

If you get the two corners too close to each other so that the bolt goes to tight and will not come around the corner on to the abutments, you can break the edge where the cocking ramps meet the lug abutments.

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by kendog4570

His instructions are field strip (I think) the bolt, lift the handle about 1/3rd of its opening travel, then measure with a feeler gage the gap between the handle root and the back of the bridge. Write that measurement on some tape on the bolt and send it. He tightens it up to about .010. Have had several done by him over the years this way and they come out fine.
I have welded big innershield wire for a paycheck for years, but I suck at real fine TIG.

Feeler gauge measurements i'd trust. I can do and have done tig work under a microscope for a paycheck. .040" tungsten and .015" wire 15-30x scope with a fast glass lens taped to it. set the machine at a high pulse frequency and only about 10 amps max, I can't remember all the settings it's been a few years, but i could do some amazing stuff, This was all for injection molds. filling in screwed up engravings or fixing buggered up edges. fun stuff

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

If you get the two corners too close to each other so that the bolt goes to tight and will not come around the corner on to the abutments, you can break the edge where the cocking ramps meet the lug abutments.

I'll have to dig out my spare action and take a look.

[kendog4570]

Originally Posted by kcstott

Feeler gauge measurements i'd trust. I can do and have done tig work under a microscope for a paycheck. .040" tungsten and .015" wire 15-30x scope with a fast glass lens taped to it. set the machine at a high pulse frequency and only about 10 amps max, I can't remember all the settings it's been a few years, but i could do some amazing stuff, This was all for injection molds. filling in screwed up engravings or fixing buggered up edges. fun stuff

I'm at the other end of the spectrum .120" diameter wire run through a Lincoln LN-9 powered by a huge rectifier. 40 volts at 600 amps. I could burn four 50 pound rolls in a 10 hour shift, and cut my entire gun collection in half with one hot pass! Ittty bitty TIG kicks my butt.

[kendog4570]

Originally Posted by LynnJr

...
And yes Kendog he can be a handful over the phone. I sent him a fitted bolt with zero clearance thinking he would measure it up and I would lap it in only to have him reject the job and send me a nasty letter.
...

About the same here. Sent 3 Mauser bolts, with clear instructions and pictures from his website. Returned as sent with same nasty letter. Also spent a time or two on the phone with him. That was an experience.

Lets just say his Rem work is top notch, his customer relations... not so much...

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by kendog4570

About the same here. Sent 3 Mauser bolts, with clear instructions and pictures from his website. Returned as sent with same nasty letter. Also spent a time or two on the phone with him. That was an experience.

Lets just say his Rem work is top notch, his customer relations... not so much...

That’s why I say every good gunsmith needs an educated MBA working for them. If for nothing else but to run interference.

[pohorsky]

Originally Posted by kcstott

That’s why I say every good gunsmith needs an educated MBA working for them. If for nothing else but to run interference.

Every tradesman does. I've ran across tons of them that were great skilled workers and if they were half as skilled in running a business as doing their trade they'd be miles ahead.

[LynnJr]

He sets them up at 0.008 for field use and if you true them up he tightens them up more.
Mine are on the way back already.

[LynnJr]

Actions are back and smooth as glass.

[fish45]

Originally Posted by kcstott

Well call it what you like. No I do not change geometry on the action itself. The bolt and action are timed and tuned as a unit. You could say the same thing about blueprinting an action, Few really do check everything before they make a cut. so they have no clue where they started or what they did is actually going to make a difference.

Using non industry standard terms is part of what I'm getting at... They're used for a reason.

Relative to action truing cutting the lugs on the bolt and receiver "make primary extraction worse". However it doesn't mean its an epidemic problem like everyone's making it out to be.

[fish45]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Primary extraction timing is the interface between the primary extraction cam on the bolt and the camming surface on the action.
You move the bolt handle forward/backward as well in rotation around the bolt to set the timing.

The point I'm making is standard terms are used for a reason.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by fish45

The point I'm making is standard terms are used for a reason.

Without calling out specifically which terms you claim I may be misusing, I have no idea what you are talking about.

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by fish45

Using non industry standard terms is part of what I'm getting at... They're used for a reason.

Relative to action truing cutting the lugs on the bolt and receiver "make primary extraction worse". However it doesn't mean its an epidemic problem like everyone's making it out to be.

You can misconstrue what I'm saying all you like, but you're not the one in my garage turning handles or running the welder. I never said a thing about bolt and action lugs having a thing to do with primary extraction. Now you're just Making crap up.
I said a factory Remington 700 will be lucky if it has any cam extraction, Meaning primary. I've handled a more than a few 700 actions in my time and every one of them had extraction timing issues. Some worse than others but all had issues. They also have a ton of cock on closing too. But what do you expect for a rifle made for the masses?

[fish45]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Without calling out specifically which terms you claim I may be misusing, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I was referring to the other commenter that said they time actions. Nobody “times” an action. You can time a bolt, muzzle brake, fluted barrel, etc. but nobody times an action. You need the action to time the bolt, but you shouldn’t be messing with an action to time a bolt.