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Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun!

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  #1  
Old 04-20-2021, 10:55 AM
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Default Unsafe Garand food

Oooops! Looks like some new Garand shooters may have screwed the pooch.

"The CMP advises to not use .30/06 ammunition in M1 Garands, 1903s, and 1903A3s that is loaded beyond 50,000 CUP and has a bullet weight more than 172-174gr. These rifles are at least 70 years old and were not designed for max loads and super heavy bullets. Always wear hearing and eye protection when firing an M1 Garand, 1903 and/or 1903A3 rifle.

This warning is an update/addition to the Ammunition section in the Read This First manual enclosed with each rifle shipment (M1 Garand manual-page 6 and M1903 manual-page 10).

Civilian Marksmanship Program"

Wonder if there are any new Garand Kboom vids on youtube...
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  #2  
Old 04-20-2021, 11:16 AM
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It doesn't go kaboom it bends the op rod. The op rod only needs to get bent a little for it not to work right.
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  #3  
Old 04-20-2021, 11:17 AM
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Might be in response to this
https://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=279785

Some blowhard over on CMP forums insisting commercial ammo is fine through a Garand

Apparently he got an article published on the same topic in the Garand Collectors Association magazine and they ended up doing a retraction in a subsequent addition
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  #4  
Old 04-20-2021, 11:37 AM
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There is an option to install the adjustable gas plug and vent some pressure to a safe amount. Just make sure you start with too much blow by and come up in pressure not the other direction.
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Old 04-20-2021, 12:52 PM
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The adjustable gas plug allows for 30-06 ammo to be used in your Garand. Installed the plug, but kept it backed out enough so that the rifle would not cycle. First shot, had to manually move op rod to eject. Adjust plug a quarter turn and fired second shot, manually move op rod to eject, etc ... slowly tightening the gas plug until the rifle fully cycles. The adjustable gas plug prevents the build up of too much pressure, which could bend the op rod.
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  #6  
Old 04-20-2021, 1:05 PM
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you just cant say dont use 30-06 ammo i do like how they list bullet weights
but i have not seen any fmj 30-06 ammo that is unsafe for the garand
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  #7  
Old 04-20-2021, 1:38 PM
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Lots of guns out there

Lots of Rules out there - verify correct ammo for firearm...



If you don't want to read the book.... I guess you get to possibly pay for new parts...
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  #8  
Old 04-20-2021, 2:37 PM
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Yeah, it might be 150gr, but don't get sucked in by the marketing...
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2021, 3:14 PM
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Mine burned Federal Classic 165gr boat tail rnds for years, the old red and white box that is. Don't hunt with it anymore, so now it gets 150 gr already loaded on clips from the shows, ya know, the stuff with the cardboard cover over the rnds. But, most of that went bye bye years ago, just a few cans of it left now. Never got a bent op rod.

Psalm 1

Last edited by Garand Hunter; 04-20-2021 at 3:15 PM.. Reason: spelling
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  #10  
Old 04-20-2021, 4:51 PM
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They also mention 1903A3's in that email. I understand there are a lot of early 1903's out there, but I was surprised they also mentioned 1903A3's
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  #11  
Old 04-21-2021, 2:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntingsocal View Post
Might be in response to this
https://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=279785

Some blowhard over on CMP forums insisting commercial ammo is fine through a Garand

Apparently he got an article published on the same topic in the Garand Collectors Association magazine and they ended up doing a retraction in a subsequent addition
Thread gone. Who was it?
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  #12  
Old 04-21-2021, 7:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ora Serrata View Post
They also mention 1903A3's in that email. I understand there are a lot of early 1903's out there, but I was surprised they also mentioned 1903A3's
IIRC, weren't there some heat treat problems with some years of the 1903? I think they were occasionally blowing up for awhile.
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  #13  
Old 04-22-2021, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
IIRC, weren't there some heat treat problems with some years of the 1903? I think they were occasionally blowing up for awhile.
That was pre-1918 1903s. The CMP website has a serial number cut-off for those. I used to have a 1918 1903 that was post the cutoff and it shot modern heavy ammo without a problem. The 1903A3's were WWII era. I think mine are 1942 built.
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  #14  
Old 04-23-2021, 6:42 PM
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It would seam that rather than getting into the nuances of the low verses high serial number 1903's, it is easier to just say all 1903's should not shoot high powered 30-06.
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Old 04-24-2021, 8:49 AM
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M1 rifle Port Pressure - is not the same as Chamber Pressure.

Fast powders - can create high chamber pressures, but, after the short burn, "vent" into the Bbl., resulting in cooler gas and lower port pressures.

Slow powders - especially in conjunction with heavy bullets, are capable of creating low or spec chamber pressures, but, through the long burn, extend those chamber pressures all the way down to the gas port, resulting in hot, energized gas and excessive port pressures.

And while the Fast powders can generate above spec port pressures, the area under the curve at the port is generally broad - a push to the gas system.

Slow powders, on the other hand, with their still burning and energized gas at the port, generate a spiked pressure curve - a kick to the gas system.

And while both may generate both spec. or excessive Op-rod speeds - it is the kick generated by the slow burn rate powders that stresses the Op-rod.

M1 rifle Op-rod and Powder Burn Rate - Gus Fisher




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  #16  
Old 04-24-2021, 11:46 AM
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I've seen a couple of op rods bent from the use of current commercial ammo, but never saw a Garand self-destruct. A Schuster adjustable gas plug solves the issue.
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  #17  
Old 04-25-2021, 8:42 AM
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I've always used 30-06 ammunition made specifically for the M1 Garand. The way I understand it was 30-06 ammunition was made for bolt action rifles and the "M1 Garand 30-06" ammunition was made for semi automatic rifles.


IMG_A8CB3E036A26-1.jpg
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  #18  
Old 04-25-2021, 7:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
IIRC, weren't there some heat treat problems with some years of the 1903? I think they were occasionally blowing up for awhile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ora Serrata View Post
That was pre-1918 1903s. The CMP website has a serial number cut-off for those. I used to have a 1918 1903 that was post the cutoff and it shot modern heavy ammo without a problem. The 1903A3's were WWII era. I think mine are 1942 built.
Iirc the ones that’s blew up, blew up after using incorrect ammunition (8mm).
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Old 04-25-2021, 7:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19K View Post
Iirc the ones that’s blew up, blew up after using incorrect ammunition (8mm).
No, I remember when I was overseas in the late 60's, the Air Force would use old crates of brand new minty 1903's to practice air drops over the field. When they hit the ground, some of the crates would bust open. But, all the crates and guns were destroyed after the drops. When asked why, a General in the stands said they were all bad heat treat manufactured lots and were too dangerous to use, lend, or sell. So they were all destroyed afterwards. That's why they were used for practice drops. They were considered junk.
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  #20  
Old 04-25-2021, 8:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
No, I remember when I was overseas in the late 60's, the Air Force would use old crates of brand new minty 1903's to practice air drops over the field. When they hit the ground, some of the crates would bust open. But, all the crates and guns were destroyed after the drops. When asked why, a General in the stands said they were all bad heat treat manufactured lots and were too dangerous to use, lend, or sell. So they were all destroyed afterwards. That's why they were used for practice drops. They were considered junk.
They were used for 15 years some of them, and there are very few documented failures of them, from the over 500,000 made and issued
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Old 04-25-2021, 8:12 PM
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Good article on low numbers https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...safe-to-shoot/
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  #22  
Old 04-25-2021, 11:28 PM
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It's a controversial topic with some good data on both sides of the argument. I found this to be an interesting perspective.
https://UOSdswZHJUc">https://UOSdswZHJUc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350">
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  #23  
Old 04-26-2021, 5:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19K View Post
Iirc the ones that’s blew up, blew up after using incorrect ammunition (8mm).
Some .30 WW1 ammunition was of poor quality and after several years started experiencing case base failures. When the base failed some brittle receivers came apart. A good 03 receiver channels the gas into the magazine and the magazine plate would blow off but the receiver would hold. The service failures stopped when the ammo was withdrawn from use. Low number rifles were used in WW2.
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Old 04-30-2021, 7:40 AM
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RL15 and H4895 150g M2 pulled bullets Same load for everything.





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  #25  
Old 05-08-2021, 7:49 PM
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So he says Garand were designed for M1 ball so most stuff is good to go without modification?

https://youtu.be/UOSdswZHJUc



This video from 6 years ago. Russian steel cased ammo. At the time, people were perplexed as to why someone will would use steel case on a Garand.

I expect to see more with the scarcity of factory 30-06 ammo available within spec.

https://youtu.be/TleMPyDq56s



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Last edited by PogoJack; 05-09-2021 at 11:36 AM..
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Old 05-31-2021, 10:49 PM
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Yep metalceuncher.
Keep it safe load. It’s enough.
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  #27  
Old 06-01-2021, 4:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
you just cant say dont use 30-06 ammo i do like how they list bullet weights
but i have not seen any fmj 30-06 ammo that is unsafe for the garand

surplus French and some Austrian .30-06 ball suffer base failures from brittle brass. That will wreck the stock at least on an M1. Same with Some WW1 U.S. ball but that stuff has to be all gone by now.
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Old 06-02-2021, 8:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smle-man View Post
surplus French and some Austrian .30-06 ball suffer base failures from brittle brass. That will wreck the stock at least on an M1. Same with Some WW1 U.S. ball but that stuff has to be all gone by now.

Would the brittle surplus French/Austrian ammo be older 1950's corrosive?
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