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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 11-26-2022, 12:27 PM
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Default Say Nothing, "ATF Agents Handcuff US Navy Sailor & Rob Him At Gunpoint"

Say nothing to ATF or Law Enforcement and know they can and do lie.



Maybe it's time for me to get a bodycam -- for self defense.
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2022, 12:49 PM
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Holy crap man! That went south for him real fast. ATF is out of control, heck most of government is.
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2022, 1:17 PM
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Cliff Notes?
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  #4  
Old 11-26-2022, 1:50 PM
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in answer to tl;dr request...

Guy trying to buy a buffer tube at LGS runs afoul of ATF bust on owner. ATF accuses guy (now retired Navy) being involved in illegal activity. That doesn't stick. Guy's trunk was open and some fine weaponry is within view. Confiscate guy's guns on the spot. Guy owns a Tesla, it is recording and running video. Oops! ATF goes into silent running.

Guy runs afoul in the office of ATF as he is now accused of owning an SBR. He had an upper, never attached in the mix of firearms. Lower-level office members are apologetic, but boss lady ATF threatens him with escalation if guy doesn't back down.

He asks for his firearms because he wanted them for home defense. Why? He recently attended services for his sister who had been murdered. You have more says the ATF. Implying two things, one he doesn't need what they have and two, they know what he does have at home.

Apparently, lady boss had been transferred probably due to a DUI charge. Dude losing sleep. He has no charges against...currently. Sword of Damocles continues to hang over his head.
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  #5  
Old 11-26-2022, 1:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF90 View Post
Cliff Notes?
TL;DR
Active Navy E6 guy has very nice guns (estimated value north of 20k) in his vehicle and goes to gunstore. ATF is investigating the gunstore for other reasons and seizes the guns in Vets vehicle. ATF admits Vet is not involved and there are no charges, but refuses to return his guns and claim one of them was configured as an SBR illegally, Vet says it was not and may have video proof of such (thanks Tesla recording!)
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  #6  
Old 11-26-2022, 7:00 PM
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The minute the store owner ran outside and told me he was under investigation I would have left. It was clearly a warning
Those were huge ATF vehicles. Couldn’t see them?

Last edited by Dan_Eastvale; 11-26-2022 at 7:03 PM..
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  #7  
Old 11-26-2022, 8:22 PM
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What state did this happen in? Photos showed all his confiscated rifles had suppressors but no claims of them being illegal so he mast have stamps.
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  #8  
Old 11-26-2022, 9:18 PM
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It is past time to the take down (out) the ATF. Where is Henry Bowman and his Solothurn S18-1000?
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  #9  
Old 11-26-2022, 9:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Eastvale View Post
The minute the store owner ran outside and told me he was under investigation I would have left. It was clearly a warning
Those were huge ATF vehicles. Couldn’t see them?
I certainly understand your point, but what is more ridiculous?

- that the guy didn't leave because agents his government were there
-OR-
- that the guy should have been scared that agents of his government were there and is now being persecuted because he didn't flee when agents of his government were there
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  #10  
Old 11-26-2022, 9:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post
It is past time to the take down (out) the ATF. Where is Henry Bowman and his Solothurn S18-1000?
^^^^^
This
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  #11  
Old 11-26-2022, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post
It is past time to the take down (out) the ATF. Where is Henry Bowman and his Solothurn S18-1000?
They should have been disbanded JUNE 8, 1971. The day after they F'd up one of their first raids on innocent citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ballew_raid
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  #12  
Old 11-27-2022, 8:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith View Post
…You have more says the ATF. Implying two things, one he doesn't need what they have and two, they know what he does have at home...
Obviously not excusing any of the behavior, but I don’t think her claim that he didn’t need the guns they took because he had more was proof they knew about any of his other guns, or that she would have even bothered to check if she could. It was more than likely a, “please, I know your type, you’ve got more guns” type of comment.

Again that’s not better, just bad for different reasons, just need to mind what we’re assuming.
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  #13  
Old 11-27-2022, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Attack View Post
What state did this happen in? Photos showed all his confiscated rifles had suppressors but no claims of them being illegal so he mast have stamps.
TN, Memphis office.
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  #14  
Old 11-27-2022, 5:36 PM
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I like this way of dealing with the po-po, from the show 'Mr Inbetween':

Ray Shoesmith, who playes the title character - 'I don't answer questions'

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...6B81&FORM=VIRE

But on a more serious note, when they say 'can and will be used against you' they really mean it and if you think you are a better conversationalist than people who day after day get information out of reluctant suspects I'd recommend watching 'the first 48' and see how often talking to the police helps these people out. Those people who say 'if you are innocent you have nothing to hide' are fool and idiots because the police look for the best suspect which is NOT always the actual perpetrator.

Keep in mind these two cases, robert blake and scott peterson, one talked to the police and one did not, one is in prison for life and one is not - would the police been able to get a conviction of peterson had he NOT talked to them?

Who knows...
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2022, 5:06 PM
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Please remember Fed SBR laws can have a constructive possession aspect.

- Dude may not have understood this.
- In many scenarios it may not have caused issues.
- There may have been no overriding 'lenity' issue where that shorty
upper had a legit pistol lower hanging out nearby.

Defense might involve (besides questioning search)...

- examining all his ARs, poss including those at home/work/cabin/elsewhere
to see if SBR can be ruled out since everything can be legally matched.

- grounds for constructive possession (and thus, likely, for a lenity escape)
are for items under "possession and control" which means not necessarily
in immediate presence.

- tearing down threshold, showing no intent to assemble two offending
components, esp in view with item immediately above
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  #16  
Old 11-30-2022, 6:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Please remember Fed SBR laws can have a constructive possession aspect.

- Dude may not have understood this.
- In many scenarios it may not have caused issues.
- There may have been no overriding 'lenity' issue where that shorty
upper had a legit pistol lower hanging out nearby.

Defense might involve (besides questioning search)...

- examining all his ARs, poss including those at home/work/cabin/elsewhere
to see if SBR can be ruled out since everything can be legally matched.

- grounds for constructive possession (and thus, likely, for a lenity escape)
are for items under "possession and control" which means not necessarily
in immediate presence.

- tearing down threshold, showing no intent to assemble two offending
components, esp in view with item immediately above
By this logic if I have an ar rifle and an ar pistol in my safe I am guilty of constructive possession.
All the other lowers, in his trunk, had an upper on them. There was another upper that had never been affixed to any lower.
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  #17  
Old 12-04-2022, 5:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfan21 View Post
By this logic if I have an ar rifle and an ar pistol in my safe I am guilty of constructive possession.
No, you are not.

You have a 'lenity outcome' - i.e., there are legit outcomes for parts.

But if you have only rifles/rifle lowers, and have a shorty upper - then you have a problem.

This has been discussed for over a decade here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfan21 View Post
All the other lowers, in his trunk, had an upper on them. There was another upper that had never been affixed to any lower.
If that upper was a shorty upper and he had no pistols/pistol lowers and just had rifles/rifle
lowers, he's got issues. [Having a pistol/pistol lower elsewhere under his control could help
ameliorate his situation.]

'Constructive possession' means under the offending parts are under your 'dominion and control'
even if at separate homes/offices/locations - and that there is no other legit outcome for the part
other than its illegal use (i.e, shorty upper on rifle receiver == SBR). If the parts you have can
in your possession/control all have legit outcomes, then you can get a pass.
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Last edited by bwiese; 12-04-2022 at 5:19 PM..
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  #18  
Old 12-04-2022, 6:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
No, you are not.

You have a 'lenity outcome' - i.e., there are legit outcomes for parts.

But if you have only rifles/rifle lowers, and have a shorty upper - then you have a problem.

This has been discussed for over a decade here.



If that upper was a shorty upper and he had no pistols/pistol lowers and just had rifles/rifle
lowers, he's got issues. [Having a pistol/pistol lower elsewhere under his control could help
ameliorate his situation.]

'Constructive possession' means under the offending parts are under your 'dominion and control'
even if at separate homes/offices/locations - and that there is no other legit outcome for the part
other than its illegal use (i.e, shorty upper on rifle receiver == SBR). If the parts you have can
in your possession/control all have legit outcomes, then you can get a pass.
He had other SBRs with the tax stamps.
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  #19  
Old 12-08-2022, 1:13 PM
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What I know is this, when life long gun owners and career vets are UNCLEAR about the law because it's so convoluted - I feel like that's the main feature of the laws not a side effects.

As far as I'm concerned all these dumb *** federal laws regarding rifles, AR pistols, NFA guns need to ****ing go. I'm tired of hearing about the wrong people getting wrapped up in LE actions.
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Old 12-09-2022, 3:38 PM
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Resist!
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  #21  
Old 12-13-2022, 8:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith View Post

Guy runs afoul in the office of ATF as he is now accused of owning an SBR. He had an upper, never attached in the mix of firearms. Lower-level office members are apologetic, but boss lady ATF threatens him with escalation if guy doesn't back down.
Bolded part is the reason why we must all remain silent when caught in a situation like this. Lots of good cops, good FBI, and good ATF on the job. But the problem is when "management" who is part of the political arm of the current administration has their way to enforce the political will of their superiors, then it doesn't matter when there are still good cops/agents who may sympathize with your situation.

You have the right to reamain innocent.
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  #22  
Old 12-14-2022, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warbonnet View Post
Bolded part is the reason why we must all remain silent when caught in a situation like this. Lots of good cops, good FBI, and good ATF on the job. But the problem is when "management" who is part of the political arm of the current administration has their way to enforce the political will of their superiors, then it doesn't matter when there are still good cops/agents who may sympathize with your situation.

You have the right to reamain innocent.
And the best way to do that is "Shut Up and Lawyer Up". If ever placed in such a situation, I have two words for PoPo.

Chuck Michel .........
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  #23  
Old 12-29-2022, 8:48 AM
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Imagine all the money pissed away on the ATF and they cant manage to buy body cams.
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