Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Gunsmithing & How To
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Gunsmithing & How To Pro, Amateur & WECSOG and Tutorials, Guides & OLL Build Instructions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 12-07-2022, 5:16 PM
fish45 fish45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 366
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
You can misconstrue what I'm saying all you like, but you're not the one in my garage turning handles or running the welder. I never said a thing about bolt and action lugs having a thing to do with primary extraction. Now you're just Making crap up.
I said a factory Remington 700 will be lucky if it has any cam extraction, Meaning primary. I've handled a more than a few 700 actions in my time and every one of them had extraction timing issues. Some worse than others but all had issues. They also have a ton of cock on closing too. But what do you expect for a rifle made for the masses?
The point is that terms exist for a reason. Comments like yours is how misinformation spreads…

If you’re claiming every 700 you’ve handled has primary extraction issues, then you’re full of it. Most have more than enough leaving the factory, even after truing…

Again, just because someone sees an issue in need of repair doesn’t mean all guns of that model have that same problem…

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
Well call it what you like. No I do not change geometry on the action itself. The bolt and action are timed and tuned as a unit. You could say the same thing about blueprinting an action, Few really do check everything before they make a cut. so they have no clue where they started or what they did is actually going to make a difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
I never said a thing about bolt and action lugs having a thing to do with primary extraction. Now you're just Making crap up.
I making up what? I said cutting lugs makes timing worse… not you…. You’re talking about other not knowing what they’re doing, while not even using the right terms.

Bolt timing is a repair or part of blueprinting an action, IF needed.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-07-2022, 7:36 PM
kcstott kcstott is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,451
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish45 View Post
I was referring to the other commenter that said they time actions. Nobody “times” an action. You can time a bolt, muzzle brake, fluted barrel, etc. but nobody times an action. You need the action to time the bolt, but you shouldn’t be messing with an action to time a bolt.
Now you're sounding like Guffey, you're splitting hairs.

So do you fit an action to the barrel or the barrel to the action?
So if a guy wants a trigger job done should I tell him I can but I wouldn't be touching the trigger as all the feel is in the sear engagement and springs?
But you say Blueprint an action. and I know of only a handfull of gun cranks that actually measure and document BEFORE they make a cut. yet every other jack weed that cleans up an action is by your definition "Blue printing"

You know you'd make better use of your time in the attempt to urinate up a rope.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-07-2022, 7:44 PM
kcstott kcstott is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,451
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish45 View Post
The point is that terms exist for a reason. Comments like yours is how misinformation spreads…

If you’re claiming every 700 you’ve handled has primary extraction issues, then you’re full of it. Most have more than enough leaving the factory, even after truing…

Again, just because someone sees an issue in need of repair doesn’t mean all guns of that model have that same problem…





I making up what? I said cutting lugs makes timing worse… not you…. You’re talking about other not knowing what they’re doing, while not even using the right terms.

Bolt timing is a repair or part of blueprinting an action, IF needed.

Well how many 700's have you worked on?? lets start there. Now lets get one thing straight what I see as unsatisfactory cam extraction may not be what you think is unsatisfactory cam extraction. it's the good, better, best thing it's all ambiguous. and I have proof of consumer accepted ambiguity. I give you the AMF Harley self depleting oil issues. it sucked, it was a manufacturing defect, yet it was accepted by thousands of customers and the factory couldn't care less. So when I say a Rem 700 has little to no cam extraction I mean it. what's my definition of "little"? apparently that's your definition of good enough.

So how you doing on the rope trick?? You got that figured out yet?
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-11-2022, 4:48 PM
fish45 fish45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 366
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
Now you're sounding like Guffey, you're splitting hairs.

So do you fit an action to the barrel or the barrel to the action?
So if a guy wants a trigger job done should I tell him I can but I wouldn't be touching the trigger as all the feel is in the sear engagement and springs?
But you say Blueprint an action. and I know of only a handfull of gun cranks that actually measure and document BEFORE they make a cut. yet every other jack weed that cleans up an action is by your definition "Blue printing"

You know you'd make better use of your time in the attempt to urinate up a rope.
Says the guy commenting…

I didn’t bring up the term blueprinting… feel free to read through the thread where I used truing but had to use blueprinting to get the point across…

Keep calling the kettle black.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-11-2022, 5:18 PM
fish45 fish45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 366
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
Well how many 700's have you worked on?? lets start there. Now lets get one thing straight what I see as unsatisfactory cam extraction may not be what you think is unsatisfactory cam extraction. it's the good, better, best thing it's all ambiguous. and I have proof of consumer accepted ambiguity. I give you the AMF Harley self depleting oil issues. it sucked, it was a manufacturing defect, yet it was accepted by thousands of customers and the factory couldn't care less. So when I say a Rem 700 has little to no cam extraction I mean it. what's my definition of "little"? apparently that's your definition of good enough.

So how you doing on the rope trick?? You got that figured out yet?
If you need to measure height I’d rather it be vertical than horizontal…

And you measure primary extraction? Since you measure everything? You use a dial indicator or some other way of measuring right? You measure how much primary extraction there is? Since you obviously don’t live in a land of ambiguity how much primary extraction does a 700 need? How long are the cam surfaces on your 700’s. You must also measure how out of true the lugs are before truing then right? So how out of true is the average action? You know, since you measure and I don’t.

Since it’s a factory defect, how many are effected? Where are the MILLIONS of examples of poor primary extraction on 700’s? Not just the one or two anyone can find with a 30 second google search. I wonder why it’s one of, if not the most popular bolt action rifles of all time…

How many have I done? I don’t keep a tally… Not that it has anything to do with primary extraction.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-11-2022, 6:32 PM
kcstott kcstott is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,451
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish45 View Post
If you need to measure height I’d rather it be vertical than horizontal…

And you measure primary extraction? Since you measure everything? You use a dial indicator or some other way of measuring right? You measure how much primary extraction there is? Since you obviously don’t live in a land of ambiguity how much primary extraction does a 700 need? How long are the cam surfaces on your 700’s. You must also measure how out of true the lugs are before truing then right? So how out of true is the average action? You know, since you measure and I don’t.

Since it’s a factory defect, how many are effected? Where are the MILLIONS of examples of poor primary extraction on 700’s? Not just the one or two anyone can find with a 30 second google search. I wonder why it’s one of, if not the most popular bolt action rifles of all time…

How many have I done? I don’t keep a tally… Not that it has anything to do with primary extraction.
The Remington 700 is the most popular action and the most copied action in the world due to marketing and efficiency of manufacture. Winchester lost out due to bad management, Remington was soon to follow for the same reason. Just because it sold high numbers doesn't mean it can't be made better. If that was true why is there such a great industry of custom actions.
As to the numbers. Pick up an action and look at it. you can see the lack of extraction, the cam surfaces do not touch each other until the last 20-30% of the cam surface. as for actual measurements I don't remember you commissioning a job from me. My data is for me an my customers. I share that kind of info with very few trusted friends.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-11-2022, 8:57 PM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Van Nuys
Posts: 54,971
iTrader: 115 / 100%
Default

I like to see at least 0.035" to 0.040" of primary extraction travel.
Most unmolested factory 700's have around 0.020" to 0.025" which is just enough to pop the fired case free reliably.
Some come will less than 0.015" and those definitely need help as the bolt handle will often make it all the way to the stop and the fired case is still not released from the chamber.
You could move the bolt handle forward to 0.010" clearance on the bolt handle root cut and attain around 0.050" or more of primary extraction travel on most 700 actions and they run much nicer when that is done.
__________________
Randall Rausch

AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-12-2022, 6:23 AM
fish45 fish45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 366
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
The Remington 700 is the most popular action and the most copied action in the world due to marketing and efficiency of manufacture. Winchester lost out due to bad management, Remington was soon to follow for the same reason. Just because it sold high numbers doesn't mean it can't be made better. If that was true why is there such a great industry of custom actions.
As to the numbers. Pick up an action and look at it. you can see the lack of extraction, the cam surfaces do not touch each other until the last 20-30% of the cam surface. as for actual measurements I don't remember you commissioning a job from me. My data is for me an my customers. I share that kind of info with very few trusted friends.
Lmao yea, ok. Your data is for you and your customers. That means you don’t know. It’s not trade secret information.

Feel free to look up what a rhetorical question is. I’ll just leave it here for you instead: (of a question) asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-12-2022, 6:26 AM
fish45 fish45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 366
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I like to see at least 0.035" to 0.040" of primary extraction travel.
Most unmolested factory 700's have around 0.020" to 0.025" which is just enough to pop the fired case free reliably.
Some come will less than 0.015" and those definitely need help as the bolt handle will often make it all the way to the stop and the fired case is still not released from the chamber.
You could move the bolt handle forward to 0.010" clearance on the bolt handle root cut and attain around 0.050" or more of primary extraction travel on most 700 actions and they run much nicer when that is done.
Rhetorical question for the other guy. This stuff isn’t trade secret information…
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 12-12-2022, 10:34 AM
kcstott kcstott is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,451
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish45 View Post
Lmao yea, ok. Your data is for you and your customers. That means you don’t know. It’s not trade secret information.

Feel free to look up what a rhetorical question is. I’ll just leave it here for you instead: (of a question) asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.
I have no need to justify anything i do. Especially to you. I never said it's trade secret. But why should I bother with trying to prove anything to someone that constantly says i'm wrong? Whats to be gained? Why should i waste my time digging through my notes just to have you cherry pick something else you don't like? no thanks.

Last edited by kcstott; 12-12-2022 at 10:38 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 12-13-2022, 9:18 AM
fish45 fish45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 366
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
I have no need to justify anything i do. Especially to you. I never said it's trade secret. But why should I bother with trying to prove anything to someone that constantly says i'm wrong? Whats to be gained? Why should i waste my time digging through my notes just to have you cherry pick something else you don't like? no thanks.
Seems like the kettle is calling the pot black
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 12-14-2022, 12:07 PM
kcstott kcstott is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,451
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish45 View Post
Seems like the kettle is calling the pot black
Keep trolling. I won't feed you.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 12-15-2022, 10:09 AM
fish45 fish45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 366
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
Keep trolling. I won't feed you.
The only one trolling is you.

Not sure how stating correct terminology use is important (especially for someone claiming to be a professional), and that most 700 actions don’t need bolt timing work on a discussion forum is trolling… But sure, believe what you want.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 12-15-2022, 12:27 PM
kcstott kcstott is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,451
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish45 View Post
The only one trolling is you.

Not sure how stating correct terminology use is important (especially for someone claiming to be a professional), and that most 700 actions don’t need bolt timing work on a discussion forum is trolling… But sure, believe what you want.
Thats your opinion and you've yet to figure that out yet.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 12-17-2022, 11:27 AM
fish45 fish45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 366
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
Thats your opinion and you've yet to figure that out yet.
It’s my opinion that you claimed to be a professional and that this is a discussion forum… yea, ok
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 12-18-2022, 7:56 AM
kcstott kcstott is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,451
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish45 View Post
It’s my opinion that you claimed to be a professional and that this is a discussion forum… yea, ok
That was your assumption.

While i have done lots of gun work in my garage I never said I was a Professional, Licensed Gunsmith. You jumped to that conclusion.

I'm am merely a guy that started life in a trade school then became a machinist then a tool maker. I also have industrial process, motor, and load handling control experience. A 32 year current history of fixing things that no one else dared take apart. I have a full accompaniment of machine tools in my garage that I put to use to work on various projects, Some for money, most are not.
Take that for what you will i do not care. But if you're going to sit there and try to convince me that my "enough" is less than your "enough" and that is somehow wrong, I don't really care. I said what I said and I stand by it. Remington's 700 have little to no cam extraction. while you may feel it is enough I feel it is not. Thats my opinion, thats my experience, and as stated before if you don't like there is a rope waiting on you to attempt to urinate up it. or if you don't understand that one, you may fornicate with the horse with which you ride.

Last edited by kcstott; 12-20-2022 at 12:51 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 12-23-2022, 5:49 PM
fish45 fish45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 366
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
That was your assumption.

While i have done lots of gun work in my garage I never said I was a Professional, Licensed Gunsmith. You jumped to that conclusion.

My data is for me an my customers.

The fact that you said your customers… means you’re claiming to be a paid professional.

For a guy that claims not to care you sure act like it… The fact that 99% of 700’s don’t have a primary extraction issue would point one toward a conclusion that it’s not a common or widespread problem… The term over engineering exists for a reason.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 12-24-2022, 11:41 AM
smoothy8500's Avatar
smoothy8500 smoothy8500 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 3,441
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

Have we figured out who's is bigger?
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 12-24-2022, 4:30 PM
kcstott kcstott is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,451
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish45 View Post
The fact that you said your customers… means you’re claiming to be a paid professional.

For a guy that claims not to care you sure act like it… The fact that 99% of 700’s don’t have a primary extraction issue would point one toward a conclusion that it’s not a common or widespread problem… The term over engineering exists for a reason.
Now we have to go down the road of what your opinion of a paid professional is?

You can be paid to do a lot of thing and never be a professional.
Yes I had customers, for many years I had customers. I don't have customers anymore.

Smoothy. I'm pretty sure I'm fatter if that helps
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 5:06 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy