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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #41  
Old 12-19-2022, 10:10 AM
twinfin twinfin is offline
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Originally Posted by Flyron View Post
Dangerous Arctic Weather coming…Christmas week.

https://www.foxweather.com/weather-n...into-next-week
Yikes, it's going to be danger-cold in much of the country. A good website to assess incoming weather is windy.com. Select the temperature option on the right side of the screen and press play to watch the next 10 days of cold unfold. Note the other useful options to select like wind, rain etc.

If you zoom out on the map, you can see the blob of cold air as it moves in and about the nation. Zoom in to your state or region level view and the various cities will start to pop up with expected temperatures.

It's a good tool for assessing both regional or site specific details. I use it often to assess incoming storms for my area. Mercifully, my region will dodge all the extreme cold temperatures as we're in a sort of "banana belt."

The people who will suffer the most are those who are entirely dependent on electricity for heat. Once the power gets knocked out, and it will, then what?
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  #42  
Old 12-19-2022, 10:35 AM
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If things get so bad with the grid, heating your home will be the least problem.

Without grid power there is no food, you don't have a job and everything else stops working really fast. The limited resources remaining get consumed in very short order and that includes the trees you think will provide the wood for your stove. This isn't 1950 with a much sparser population, a majority of the population remembering and still able to be self reliant.

You have stored food? Uh huh, most people have no idea just how fast stored emergency food gets consumed and where are you getting more, Amazon? Without a working grid there is no short term anything, every problem becomes long term.

You think you'll head out into some forest to cut trees? Good luck with that unless you live in the forests to start with. You aren't getting fuel for your truck much less for your chainsaw and if those in the population that can burn wood are thinking they will be heading up and down freeways with split wood stacked high, reality check, it's not happening. You won't get 5 miles.

Heating your home is the final use of a resource because before that no one can power refrigeration for perishable food, there is no transportation to move food and just what job are you going to?

Prepping is a great idea and everyone should but try thinking past how you get through a few months until you think Spring weather comes around because that isn't going to change anything, the problems aren't going away.

After you cut down all the trees on your property do you think you'll be the only one heading out to cut firewood? What people talk about in Germany is short term and no sustainable and everyone knows it. There are no longer the vast forests with a smaller population to use them for wood, their population is twice what it was and the same can be said in the USA. It isn't you and some buddies getting in F250s and packing up Stihl saws and going at it. You might as well think you're going to wack a bunch of put plants and hope someone is going to let you do that. It's not happening.

Demoralizing is having a nice warm home and hot water from a wood fired stove but no food unless you have already planted enough acreage to sustain yourself and there isn't some freeze.

The romanticizing of prepping all sounds great until you have to do it for more than a short time. While some people live a prepper life all the time, that isn't most and those people aren't about to let you come around cutting trees either. You're going to come up against very hostile people who see you in your pickup there to take their resources and it's not going to happen. The population is too large and consumes too many resources for that.

When your home is the only one around with lights on and heat how long do you think that lasts?

I can tell you about people who steal firewood in the middle of winter, your fuel oil tank is dry and you go out and your wood is gone. Yeah, you're going to be the security service, the wood cutter, the subsistence farmer, the this and the that?

If all you are talking about is a week or two, ok. Fire up the wood stove and make do, it's like home camping. Past that it's a new world and whatever you thought is a dream. While you might live somewhere now where wood heat is the norm, I've been there too but when everyone else is in the same boat and people start heading out from the Burbs competing for the same resources you have, your world changes really fast.

Don't get me wrong, I've lived where heat from wood was the norm but the next town over wasn't like that. You aren't in some ecosystem isolated from what happens when everyone can't heat their homes, can't get food because the grid goes down and everything else has stopped.

The solution? Change how you live today because you aren't going to switch from anything else being normal and then move over to wood heat, self-sustaining food sources and all the other things grid power provides. That is pure fantasy. Your canned food and freeze dried foodstuffs might last a year, maybe two if you have a lot. After that? If the grid goes down to the point you are trying to make it through an entire winter, newsflash, nothing is coming back the way it was.

That doesn't even take into account water. Yeah, you might live near a stream, pond or lake. You might have a well. That isn't everyone and we all like to think some AR15 is going to protect the abode and property, it is not, that is fantasy. In some world 60-70 years ago, that might have worked, not now and not every in the future.

The solution is changing how you love day to day now. Look around and what is conspicuous to others that you see as nothing special? Start by making that less conspicuous. People don't want what they don't see, hear about or smell. It's reality.

Prepping is big business and marketing that has convinced a lot of people that making it a few weeks to a few months and maybe a year is some solution. It merely postpones what eventually happens.

When 1,2 or 3 million people can't heat their homes for more than a month you think those remaining are going to sit around hoping? They all have cars, trucks and all the goodies to defend or take the same as you. Are you going to become a garrison all by yourself or with some buddies? It won't the The Postman like the movies.

Firewood was a solution decades ago, it isn't any longer. It's a short term stop gap but when there is no grid power/energy for an entire winter that creates it's own problems and having a warm shower isn't one of them.

Few people realize that even two months of no grid power over a vast part of the USA will see problems of unimaginable magnitudes, problems that aren't solved because the weather turned warm. A lot people are fooling themselves.

The few? They might be okay but again, it's not 1950s and there are now way over 300 million people that will all want the same wood you are trying to burn to make a cup of hot coffee.

No one can go from normal to minimalists and think it's going to work for more than a year. The grid going down for an entire winter season changes everything - permanently so think about that, really think about how that stacked few cords or wood does anything to keep things going. No one in cities is going to sit around wondering what to do, there will be plenty who head out to them thar hills, right where you are. Plan for that and that plan isn't some garrison with you holding out with family and some friends in a movie like stand against the hordes.





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  #43  
Old 12-19-2022, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SharedShots View Post
If things get so bad with the grid, heating your home will be the least problem.

Without grid power there is no food, you don't have a job and everything else stops working really fast. The limited resources remaining get consumed in very short order and that includes the trees you think will provide the wood for your stove. This isn't 1950 with a much sparser population...
.
And yet there is that vast middle ground between "everything's fine and "everything's collapsed." Perhaps you missed some of the examples of relatively short term disruptions that can be made more tolerable by taking some simple steps available to anyone who plans ahead.

We'll soon see another example of short term hardship that those who took some of the simple steps outlined in this thread will endure with relative comfort compared to those who failed to anticipate and prepare. This coming cold airmass is not unusual or insurmountable. It won't collapse the economy or society but it will become a crisis for some who didn't take some of the simple steps discussed here.
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  #44  
Old 12-19-2022, 1:19 PM
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Every year Americans die from freezing temps somewhere in the country. Even people that live in those freezing northern areas year around.

People that cannot learn how to stay warm in winter are culls. Nobody to blame but themselves. Winter happens every year. It doesn't sneek up and yell "SURPRISE!".

ALL city dwellers are dependent on somebody else for their living and comfort. Hand them a real intense emergency and they'll stand there blowing spit bubbles while they figure out what to do next.

How many times do we see how environmentally inappropriate people dress every day? No practical garb. It's a fashion show for office work or standing in place at the bistro.
People could dress for freezing temps to be dry/warm, but they just don't/won't.

Maybe a hard winter or two would snap people of their Scarlet O'Hara attitudes.
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  #45  
Old 12-19-2022, 1:34 PM
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Easiest answer of all. Heavy clothing. Heavy bedding. Folks, I tell you it works. No electricity; no wood burning stoves.
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  #46  
Old 12-19-2022, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by twinfin View Post
And yet there is that vast middle ground between "everything's fine and "everything's collapsed." Perhaps you missed some of the examples of relatively short term disruptions that can be made more tolerable by taking some simple steps available to anyone who plans ahead.
Agree. Not a thread about apocalyptic conditions for those prepared for the middle ground. I consider our annual 3 to 4, weeklong PSPS in the Sierra foothills middle ground. Visiting neighbors on adjacent properties, from the Bay area would disagree.
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  #47  
Old 12-19-2022, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirtlaw View Post
Easiest answer of all. Heavy clothing. Heavy bedding. Folks, I tell you it works. No electricity; no wood burning stoves.
Yes it works very well indeed.
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  #48  
Old 12-19-2022, 4:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinfin View Post
And yet there is that vast middle ground between "everything's fine and "everything's collapsed." Perhaps you missed some of the examples of relatively short term disruptions that can be made more tolerable by taking some simple steps available to anyone who plans ahead.

We'll soon see another example of short term hardship that those who took some of the simple steps outlined in this thread will endure with relative comfort compared to those who failed to anticipate and prepare. This coming cold airmass is not unusual or insurmountable. It won't collapse the economy or society but it will become a crisis for some who didn't take some of the simple steps discussed here.
Oh, I completely recognize and agree with the in middle. The thing is that all the signs are there for less in the middle.

For a few weeks, heck, most people will be miserable but that isn't going to move anything. For short term you can fire up a Mr.Heater using propane and not have to deal with wood at all.

Is this about some once in a while cold air blast? As you look around nothing is as it used to be. As kids growing up we had power outages, stacked up wood for stoves and such. No school - hooray a week off! We are rapidly heading to extremes, not caused by weather but by other factors. A no grid that means some hardship is quickly not being anything to worry about. We often think of a downed grid as being something all to itself when these days it flows over to almost every aspect of life and heating the home and a nice hot shower is inconsenquential.

50 years ago the grid goes down, no sweat, everyone knew what to do because parents at the time had lived through times when dealing with hardship was still in memory. Everything didn't stop. Today however, that in between a few days or maybe a week or two without grid power and everything shutting down is much closer than you might imagine.

But lets take that middle ground situation you spoke of. You might be ok and those on this thread might also but the rest who become miserable the next day? It isn't going to take them a month to do something, they will start in much sooner than that and that creates problems that mount each other into that extreme.

This is why I say (just IMO) that the better plan is to change how you live so that a grid going down for more than just a few weeks or months doesn't become an emergency. For example, acclimating to the seasons wins over a thermostat every time. People used to do it and were hardier for it. It isn't that because we can afford pumping heat into a house that anything else is backwards. Convenience has crept in and even 65 degrees is a lot warmer than you need to be comfortable, like by 5 or 6 degrees. A well built home, properly sited with the right exposures and construction can easily stay in a comfort zone with very little heat.

In short order, wood becomes more valuable than gasoline and on par with food. It doesn't take much to go from that middle between wonderful and disaster anymore, that time has passed.

Paying attention to the home and how it uses energy (heat) can provide far more comfort for a lot longer than piling up wood that unless you have access to significant acreage, those 6-8 cords isn't going last past one season and then what?

When the grid goes down, who knows when it comes back up? We all like to think - ah, it will be back up as soon as the weather passes and the crews get on it. There are fewer and fewer crews everyday.

So IMO, instead of prepping for the middle, don't even consider it because you are burning valuable resources thinking everything comes back but when it doesn't none of what you've used is available anymore.

The family that lives according to the weather adjust to the seasons instead of adjusting the heater or AC, its just a minor thing. I have relatives that never turn on the heat and I thought they'd be cold and miserable. Not so. They don't wear cheap poly clothes, they eat well and don't watch carbs and calories too much, it gets used as body fuel. They are active all day and when they come in from outside they are taking off clothes as if they were in a sauna. Not everyone has enough to do outside or even in the house but its easily possible to do far more than watch TV or being sedentary.

Here's the bottom line, that middle ground between normal and extreme is razor thin these days, most people aren't even aware how close things are to something small becoming something much larger and with an ever increasing population of people who want and demand convenience, many of the resources - such as stacked wood and a wood stove aren't going to do much more than get you a month or few. That used to be enough, it isn't anymore. When the grid goes down as it does on occasion, I look around and react as if it's not coming back up for a long time because one of those times it isn't.

Show me someone who has 6 months or a year of food stacked and 10 cords of wood ready to go and I'll show you someone who 10 months later with no grid power is in the same position as the city dweller was 9 months ago. They ain't making it.




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Let Go of the Status Quo!

Don't worry, it will never pass...How in the hell did that pass?

Think past your gun, it's the last resort, the first is your brain.

Defense is a losing proposition when time is on the side of the opponent. In the history of humanity, no defense has ever won against an enemy with time on their side.
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  #49  
Old 12-19-2022, 5:24 PM
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Triage.

Cities will run out of resources fast including heating supplies du jour unless US. Mil. Inc trucks it in and rations it. People will die. Triage those that can be saved.

This isn't just a heat problem either. Lack of potable water, monthly needed scrips, food, security, sewage, body removal/disposal, diseases via rats and insects etc.

While this discussion is centered on alt heat, we have to recognize the other things that will be present all year long. If there is a significant urban die off, I like our chances out here in the sticks. We have a greater measure of control. If a die off were to occur we may or may not have to contend with uninvited guests.

We won't be weak from starvation, not dehydrated, enough food being grown\gathered to replace stored dry goods and security will sort out the wolves or we'll be sorted out by them.

We are not a paper tiger and we are more than a few. Heads on a swivel and coordinated.
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  #50  
Old 12-19-2022, 5:48 PM
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As noted, I experience "middle ground" conditions multiple times each year. It has helped me understand the deficiencies in my preps. Also provide greater insight into surviving longer term situations. How many have actually trialed their preps?
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  #51  
Old 12-19-2022, 5:51 PM
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Natural gas fireplace - hardly ever goes out even in Commiefornia.

We'll just sleep and eat in the livingroom by the fireplace, thank you very much!
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  #52  
Old 12-20-2022, 8:17 AM
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Well, the grid is down in Northern California so there is that. (large earthquake)

Theory into practice.
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Let Go of the Status Quo!

Don't worry, it will never pass...How in the hell did that pass?

Think past your gun, it's the last resort, the first is your brain.

Defense is a losing proposition when time is on the side of the opponent. In the history of humanity, no defense has ever won against an enemy with time on their side.
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  #53  
Old 12-20-2022, 8:19 AM
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In addition to burning wood, I have down pants and jackets to keep warm in the coldest of situations
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  #54  
Old 12-20-2022, 4:52 PM
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Diesel heaters are what I have used for camping in 5 degree weather. Or a cheaper alternative is the buddy heater ran off a propane tank.
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  #55  
Old 12-21-2022, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinfin View Post
You raise some good points. I'm sure there's a number of people out there who will think about turning a coupler stovetop burners on to add some heat to the house without giving thought to heat damage or ignition of surrounding surfaces not designed for that kind of exposure.

Your right about the electronics of modern stoves. Even the ones with a gas oven need electricity to keep the glow plug style flame igniter burning continuously while the oven is in use. During my research prior to going off-grid, I found only two manufactures of stoves who offered a non-electric model that could be used without needing electricity.

A draw back to burning non-vented propane devices (Mr Buddy Heaters and the like) is the water vapor given off as a byproduct of propane combustion. It raised the humidity in a room quite a bit. Not to say these couldn't work in a pinch but the humidity issue should be taken into consideration.
So what you do is fill your biggest kettles with water
Get them boiling and you can turn the burners off and let the heat from the kettles radiate their heat for a while before firing up the stove again Or keep them at a slow simmer. Just don’t forget to keep those pots full.
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  #56  
Old 12-29-2022, 8:46 AM
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Have jackets and sleeping bags. Actually, I haven't even lit my pilot light on the heater yet this year.
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