|
Hunting and Fishing Rifle, Shotgun, Handgun, Archery, Blackpowder Saltwater and Fresh Water |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
||||
|
||||
Hey Deckhandmike, on copper vs. lead
Quote:
High velocity expanding copper bullets create enough of a pressure/velocity wave in lung tissue to 'overstretch' the tissue, converting temporary wound cavity to permanent wound cavity. Lower velocity expanding copper bullets can't convert temp wound cavity to permanent wound cavity, and so drill a (roughly speaking) half inch hole through that tissue. Low velocity expanding copper bullets act a lot like large caliber hard cast lead, and animals react accordingly (running off farther than you'd like). Fully bonded bullets act like copper bullets. High velocity lead bullets, particularly cup and core, or even things like those bullets designed to shed x% of their weight (Accubond IIRC) impact and start to come apart. In that impact they create a temporary wound cavity and, like copper bullets, some of that wound cavity will be stretched further than it can accommodate and convert to permanent wound cavity. However, unlike copper bullets, as the lead bullet and jacket fragment hundreds/thousands of tiny missiles are launched through the temp wound cavity, cutting through tissue that is submaximally stretched, and converting it to permanent wound cavity. That is, temp stretch cavity that would have collapsed from a high velocity copper bullet without conversion to permanent wound cavity is converted to permanent wound cavity by fragmenting lead. Lower velocity lead ammo STILL (most often) fragments to some degree, and so STILL converts temp stretch cavity to permanent wound cavity by secondary missiles. Something that can't be said for lower velocity impacts from expanding copper bullets. This increased permanent wound channel from the secondary missiles resulting from the fragmentation of lead ammo causes the animal to die quicker. So what about 'fragmenting' copper ammo? I don't think a copper bullet designed to lose 4 or 6 petals has enough secondary missiles to be anywhere near as effective as a lead cup and core bullet; but I haven't tried any yet either. So why do some animals drop in their tracks when shot with copper? CNS and brachial plexus hits notwithstanding, I think high enough impact velocities with expanding copper bullets also have the potential to create a hydraulic hammer action on the CNS (if sufficiently close to the spine) to essentially knock the animal out while it bleeds out. The person running this website (https://www.ballisticstudies.com/) has taken an interest in terminal ballistics and has written quite a bit about it. They suggest that impact velocities above 2600 fps can cause enough shock to do as I suggest. In my experience that seems to be about right, though I have nothing but anecdotal evidence. As for anecdotal evidence... I shot a doe pronghorn at 300 yards with a 110 grain TTSX from a 7mm-08 started at 3200 fps from the muzzle. I put the bullet in her 'pocket' just behind the elbow, basically dead center of the lungs. She ran 200+ yards in a big circle before finally dying. I shot a small buck mule deer at just shy of 200 yards with that same 110 grain TTSX. Basically the same shot (just behind the elbow) but a little higher up, under the spine, but not so close as to ruin any backstrap. He dropped like a sack of bricks. Impact velocity of my load at 300 yards? 2315 fps. Impact velocity at 200 yards? 2594 fps. When I was shooting Nosler Ballistic Tips, I never had a deer run more than maybe 30 yards after being shot dead center in the lungs (behind the elbow), and most went significantly less than that. All at ranges of 80 - 300 yards. IMO lead kills better, but copper bullets punch above their weight class in relation to penetration. So anyway, I've started shooting them in the shoulder with Barnes bullets. If they can't run they're easier to find.
__________________
Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator. |
#2
|
||||
|
||||
I've shot 30 or so big game animals with copper in the last 7 years. Only one of them was not DRT. It was a cow elk that went down and stayed down for a bit, then needed a second round to finish her...but I shot too far back and it was poor shot placement.
I don't like being forced to use them, but my Barnes TTSX bullets in every caliber I've tried so far (I think I'm up to 5), kill things very well. |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
FWIW I shot a very large waterbuck in Africa with Remington 7mm Mag 160grain Barnes TTSX at about 200 meters. Hit it low behind the shoulder. Heart and lung shot. Bullet did not exit and the waterbuck went about 25 feet and dropped dead.
Also shot a nice impala at closer range with the same load. Hit it high on the shoulder and it dropped immediately. Bullet did penetrate and go out the other side.
__________________
My mother always told me to be careful what you ask for. Just one more piece of parental advice I stupidly ignored. <shrug> |
#4
|
||||
|
||||
I’ve been hunting with lead free for 12+ years. Like others, I believe the lead free laws are based on bad science, do little to positively impact the environment, and hate laws mandating their use, but have to admit that they’ve worked well for me. This season I filled 3 tags with a Barnes 139gr LRX fired from a 7mm-08. All three dropped in their tracks
__________________
When the battle drum beats, it is too late to sharpen your sword." Sir Winston Churchill |
#5
|
||||
|
||||
Tough subject since we’re trying to explain what’s happening to bullets we never recover. Some of the things I’ve seen is just a low transfer of energy on target when hitting the lung, heart area. I can’t complain since everything died but it seemed like there is little reaction to the animal, no thump sound. Stuff just doesn’t look hammered like when you use lead or hit bone/muscle. The exit holes on those pigs where tiny. These are from 7mag and 300wm at hundred yards or less. Maybe I’m just used to crappier bullets leaving larger exit wounds since they where breaking apart instead of actually holding together like copper?
I’m totally a fan of copper, works fine but sometimes I wonder. I’ve actually seen/felt/possibly imagined better impact on some of the copper going a bit slower like out of my 6.8spc. And before a million people pile in and say copper works great, I’ve killed xyz with it that’s not what I’m asking. I’m asking about those who have had not great results and why they think it happened. Obviously it’s going to work when you put it in the right spot but sometimes the results have just looked unspectacular and not quick. Last edited by deckhandmike; 11-20-2022 at 10:25 PM.. |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
In my case, I've recovered two of the 110 grain TTSX bullets. One was in the offside shoulder after a quartering away shot. The bullet went through a rib, the liver, two lungs, and the offside scapula. It lost one petal (I actually found it later while eating...). The other one I found was in the dirt behind my dead deer. It went through the humerus at about 30 yards, it lost all four petals. I actually suspect that maybe the 110 TTSX wasn't meant to be driven at 3200 fps muzzle velocity. What we can do however is look at the lungs and heart after the shot, even if we don't recover the slug. I've seen generally two cases. Case one, the bullet went through both lungs putting a half inch hole in them. Case two, radial tears radiate away from the wound track, the wound track being much larger than half an inch in diameter.
I still feel that lead does a better job of killing things more quickly more often. That said, putting a hole through both lungs will always result in a dead animal. There was a time when it was just accepted that you'd likely have to track your dead game after the shot.
__________________
Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator. |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
Shop at Amazon via shop42a.com - up to 15% of all sales go back to Calguns Foundation! |
#8
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Napalm and I have discussed this topic many, many times while on road trips. His theory makes sense to me but as Deckhandmike has opined, it is a hard puzzle to figure out when you almost never recover a bullet. I can tell you that if I put a bullet through the lung/heart area, the soft tissue turns to liquid - so that would seem to support his theory. Now, I'm a believer in copper bullets, specifically the Barnes TTSX. My opinion is based on anecdotal evidence to be sure.... just what I've experienced in the field. Sure - I've seen some weird things, like a mule deer that ran for 60 yards without a heart or a pronghorn that wandered off casually for about 40 yards without lungs or a heart. But everything I've shot with it has died more or less where it was hit. And all have had their lungs turned to liquid as the bullet passed though..... complete liquid, no big bits left. I have a hunting buddy that swears a blue streak whenever I mention copper bullets; He hates them and says all they do is pencil through. I've never seen that, but I readily accept the accounts of folks like Bigboarstopper that guide and have seen tons and tons of incidences. I'll trust that it happens - I've just never seen it in person. I'm shooting 150gr TTSX out of a 30-06, and they chrono at just over 2900fps when they leave the muzzle. Maybe that's why..... but the Federal saboted slugs leave the muzzle at 1900fps, and they work just fine, even at yardage. Don't have an answer really. Early on, the first animal I took with the TTSX was a big boar at FHL. He was broadside to me, maybe 120 yards out, and sipping from a mud puddle when I shot. He rolled over on his back and just laid there,but he legs were still moving so I took another shot to finish him before I got close. The first bullet was a pass-through, but the second one ended up just underneath the hide on the far side. That is the only TTSX I have ever recovered, and is pictured below. Textbook expansion. Now, all that being said - since I moved to a different state I have gone back to the tried and true trusty Sierra GameKing. It worked very well for me before the CA ban, and it is still a reliable producer where I hunt now. Every single animal I've shot with it has died where it stood, so I'll continue to use it until forced to change.
__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." Last edited by bigbossman; 11-21-2022 at 9:30 AM.. |
#9
|
||||
|
||||
Given a choice, I'm picking Swift A-Frame over copper. Unfortunately, that's no longer always a choice.
My PH in Africa is very supportive of the Barnes TTSX though even for dangerous game. I'm going to guess he's seen more big game taken that all of us combined. I tend to believe him if he says the TTSX is good to go.
__________________
My mother always told me to be careful what you ask for. Just one more piece of parental advice I stupidly ignored. <shrug> |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
"X" bullet, TSX bullet & TTSX bullet.
The evolution in design has been towards opening up more reliably/at lower energy. With lead projectiles there was always the concern for blowing up on the shoulder or otherwise lacking penetration to kill humanely. With copper the concern is for doing enough damage on the way through. Nothing profound just the way I've fixed the comparison in my head.
__________________
What do you call the people that abandoned the agenda of John Kennedy and adopted the agenda of Lee Oswald? Pronouns: "Dude" and "Playa". https://billstclair.com/Unintended-Consequences.pdf I was born under a wandrin star. |
#12
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Proper bullet for the task is the object. The mono-bullet evolution has been to make the bullet more versatile,but everything has it's limitations. In the early days of mono, folks didn't understand you need to reduce the bullet weight to keep the velocity up. While the projectiles have "improved", that's still the consensus. Lead projectiles have gone through similar evolution, just a more "mature" evolution as mono. Expecting the same bullet to perform admirably on a 150# animal and a 1000# animal with the same type of hit, is wishing in one hand. If you haven't, peruse this site. It has more first hand knowledge/experience than anywhere else I've seen. https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase.html
__________________
Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter |
#13
|
||||
|
||||
That the TTSX and other similar bullets will kill things is not the question. Killing things isn't that hard, put a hole through both lungs and make them leak. Or the heart. The question I constantly debate with myself is, does copper kill things as quickly as lead?
I want my animals to die sooner rather than later. An animal that dies sooner dies closer to where you shot it, suffers less, and is easier to find after the shot than one that dies 100 yards from where you shot it. Back when people were routinely killing animals with black powder guns, finding your game after the shot was a routine practice. Technology has advanced and we now have the ability to more precisely shoot better bullets which can give us an advantage it putting the animal down more quickly. So in the end, what does a copper bullet get you? It gets you a bullet that expands at moderate velocities, in soft tissue, with no ablative loss of mass, and deep penetration. That is useful in some scenarios, less useful in others; and at low impact velocities is similar to hunting with large bore black powder rifles from 150 years ago. But at high impact velocities, things change; and at high impact velocities it's my opinion that a jacketed lead bullet in the lungs is more often a quicker killer of game than copper for the same shot. Copper bullets are a necessity for some of us, a choice for others. No matter what, they're just another tool in the box. Some people see them as the best tool for all applications, others take a more nuanced approach. I hunt out of state for deer and pronghorn, and my experience has been that a lot of my game is taken from 100-300 yards. Inside of 200 yards I don't think it makes much difference if I use my copper or my lead loads on a lung shot, though I feel lead provides more margin for error (i.e. hitting the back of the lungs rather than the middle). Outside of 200 yards I think it makes quite a difference. Deckhandmike was looking for discussion and theories, so I posited my theories.
__________________
Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator. |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
Generally speaking, faster is better at impact. Get there however you see fit (light bullets, heavier powder charge, long barrel, different cartridge, keeping your bullets next to a hand warmer before you shoot, whatever).
__________________
Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator. |
#15
|
||||
|
||||
I can’t say what copper bullet is better than another. I rarely ever payed attention to what the hunters were shooting as long as it was a legal round.
The energy transfer is what’s apparently missing in a majority of the cases I cited in the other thread. When I was guiding I’m essentially a spectator in that shooting moment. What I look and listen for is that poof of dust on the target from the impact and that whack sound coming back a fraction of a second later. And of course, the animal getting knocked down. With copper I stopped hearing and seeing those things more often than not. You’d have a hunter shooting at a pig in a herd then watch a he whole herd run off. “Which one did you shoot at?” “Do you think you hit it?” Are conversations that happend a lot more often with copper. Back with lead, bad shots physically knocked down more animals that eventually got up and ran away. Copper is a big guessing game a lot of the time. I became one of those “shoot the center of the shoulder” people. At least I knew the animal was shot. Those relatively soft tissue shots simply left us wondering if we should chase the herd down to shoot again or should we go where the shot was and see if we can find a blood trail. The bullet’s transfer of energy into the target is copper’s downfall in my opinion.
__________________
Guided/Semi Guided Wild Boar Hunts In Central California, Shay Balesteri 831.594.1270 |
#16
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
However while riding and just hunt talking I know he's seen it used on lion, leopard an elephant. If it will kill an elephant, there isn't much it won't kill.
__________________
My mother always told me to be careful what you ask for. Just one more piece of parental advice I stupidly ignored. <shrug> |
#17
|
||||
|
||||
__________________
Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator. |
#18
|
||||
|
||||
There have been several times after cutting open the animal that the internals looked like the pig had been skewed with a wire compared to the traditional looking bullet mess as well. Heart and lungs jello, but the meat looking like it had been shanked with an ice pick. Also less blood trail.
The more I think about this though I’m kinda thinking the ttsx is working as advertised and the mess I used to see was from the bullets tumbling or fragmenting and I assumed that was the normal look of things. This also kinda fits with my theory that when the bullet is going really fast (.300 and 7mm) it does less damage compared to my 6.8 where it’s going slow enough it more likely to tumble. It’s like the pigs small size and a large really fast round is passing through perfectly straight so the wound channel is actually smaller than if it hit some resistance like when used against a larger animal. So basically too large of caliber on too small of an animal going too fast with a really tough bullet might explain rounds zipping right through without the traditional mess left behind by a lead bullet. Last edited by deckhandmike; 11-21-2022 at 11:22 AM.. |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Here's a gel test on the particular bullet I use in a Swedish Mauser @ 2500 fps. and 2000fps..
Again "just fixed in my head" but I've decided from reading that 1800 fps. is about where I would need to hit bone for the bullet to open up reliably. (as if ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1yYGWApM0 Not understanding the circumstance of where the Barnes might not open up at high speed, or tumble for that matter. The test has the petals open at just over an inch, speed reduced to where that can't be counted on is just a whole lot farther out than I'm likely to ever shoot at an animal. Still I'm convinced there is some characteristic to up close copper I'm curious about. My single experience is on a buck at maybe 40 yds, quartering down hill to me hit on the point of the shoulder. Parts of the heart and liver were edible after trimming, the bullet was recovered under the hide where it cut a round hole between 2 ribs on the way through at that angle. The shoulder was shattered into a bunch of small, white pieces that blood was never pumped to to cause any blood shot meat.....that looked kind'a weird.
__________________
What do you call the people that abandoned the agenda of John Kennedy and adopted the agenda of Lee Oswald? Pronouns: "Dude" and "Playa". https://billstclair.com/Unintended-Consequences.pdf I was born under a wandrin star. |
#20
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
Shop at Amazon via shop42a.com - up to 15% of all sales go back to Calguns Foundation! |
#22
|
||||
|
||||
I kill or am a part of a kill an average of 7 big game animals a year. I have used and seen a lot of different bullets. From what I have experienced, all copper bullets and bonded lead bullets kill very similarly. Lead bullets that fragment at least a portion of their weight seem to kill faster than all copper or bonded lead that does not fragment. Berger bullets put game down faster than anything else I have used and they basically grenade.
A bullet that goes through the scapula, hits the spine or passes near the spine, and sometimes heart shots, puts game down right now, regardless of how it is constructed. Hits towards the rear of the lungs seem to really show the difference in bullet performance. |
#23
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator. |
#24
|
||||
|
||||
You are correct. Lighter bullets are more prone to deflection upon striking bone. As far as tumbling goes, I think that might be a bit of an overstatement. Anything going 2500 FPS through a 12" wide object isn't going to have enough time/distance to "tumble" much.
|
#25
|
||||
|
||||
The myth is that the tumbling kills better than an otherwise proper wound channel would. Not that bullets dont tumble.
__________________
Shop at Amazon via shop42a.com - up to 15% of all sales go back to Calguns Foundation! Last edited by 180ls1; 11-22-2022 at 6:50 PM.. |
#26
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
It’s kinda funny I know what works, but I’ve never really gone into “why”. Just to be clear I’m not even claiming my theory is in any way correct. I’m just trying to explain what I see and figure out why it varies so much. Last edited by deckhandmike; 11-22-2022 at 10:31 PM.. |
#27
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Lungs are basically sponges filled with air. When they are less filled with air they are more solid, that is, the fluid to air ratio is higher. Liquid fluids are far less compressible than gases. So, a well mushroomed bullet traveling at supersonic speeds through lungs filled with air pushes hard on a very compressible gas; where as a well mushroomed bullet traveling at supersonic speeds through lungs NOT filled with air pushes hard against fluids that are far less compressible. So, when you shoot an animal that has just inhaled through the lungs, you do less damage than if you had shot it as it just exhaled. Furthermore, if you shoot an animal through the lungs just after it inhales, there is a lot of oxygen rich blood ready to be pumped to the brain. If you shoot an animal through the lungs after it exhales, there is less oxygen rich blood available.
__________________
Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator. |
#28
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
If animals were made out of ballistic gel, this would be so much easier.
__________________
Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter |
#29
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Not to say that is what your intent was... But if that theory were true, then 22lr that penetrated and stopped inside of an animals body would be more lethal than 50bmg that passed all the way through. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
The perfect round penetrates deep enough to go through all the vitals and does not leave the animal while expanding the maximum possible. Leaving as large wound channel as possible. Comparing a 22 to 50 bmg doesn’t prove your point. The only real comparison is the same Bullet weight and velocity that goes through an animal verses doesn’t. And the reaction from the animal |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#32
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Give me a substantial exit wound everytime.
__________________
Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter |
#33
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
200 units of energy from projectile Y are transferred to the animal, and the bullet runs out of energy and rests against the hide on the far side of the animals torso. Which projectile likely caused more damage? Which one transferred more energy to the animal? Which one was on the ragged edge of performance when it was on the far side of the animal after passing through tissue? Poking holes certainly does stop things. Poking holes in hearts and lungs efficiently kills critters. A 405 grain slug from a 45-70 that passes clean through a deers heart and lungs at 900 fps is going to kill it plenty dead, before lodging itself a few inches deep in the tree behind it, because that .45"+ hole left behind causes the organs to both leak and fail to function like they should, which results in a quick death. |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Poking holes does not kill animals instantly unless you hit specific organs and even then the animal will run. Trying to say if I shoot something with a 45-70 in the heart doesn’t prove you right. If you hit the animal in the heart with any round will be fatal. The problem isn’t with perfect shots but with not perfect shots. That is what most inexperienced don’t understand. |
#35
|
||||
|
||||
Nice of you to be boving goalposts, and not addressing the discussion topic, but sure. Tell me again how less available energy and less energy transferred is better than more, while at the same time saying energy transfer is the most important thing. I'm definitely inexperienced.
|
#36
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Also demonstrably false - "you need to hit bone to get copper to expand". All the animals I've shot with copper were pass-throughs, and all had no lungs and/or hearts after being shot with a copper bullet that did not hit bone. All of them either flopped right over after being shot, or very shortly thereafter.
__________________
Always looking for vintage Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles. Looking to sell? Know of one for sale? Drop me a line! "Give a conservative a pile of bricks and you get a beautiful city. Give a leftist a city and you get a pile of bricks." |
#37
|
|||
|
|||
Every hunter must realize that there are several aspects to the physics involved in a QUICK KILL.
All of which are variable, All of which are relevant. It is the accumulated effect of all the relevant variables in a given shot, that determines how quick the individual kill is. |
#38
|
||||
|
||||
Copper can be very accurate infact the Navy seals use the TSX bullet in there sniper rifles.
Copper solids are bone busters designed for DG hunting in the dark continent. I was a Tejon member early 2000's when they did a self imposed lead ban to try to appease the Condor BS. It took a few lost pigs to figure out that copper doesn't kill like lead. It takes bone like the scapula or a frontal shot where the bullet passes through 24-30 inches of tissue....... Then it's deadly they don't move. And generally less game shot meat. Now there's tons of copper bullets that shed their weight. Don't pass through even if you don't hit bone. It's actually all over the place which is cool. Lots of choices but it's still hard as a rock and has a learning curve.
__________________
One life so don't blow it......Always die with your boots on! |
#39
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Gonna give a go on the Nosler lead free for my 22-250 in a couple of weeks and see how it works.
__________________
http://govnews.ca.gov/gov39mail/mail.php Thank your neighbor and fellow gun owners for passing Prop 63. For that gun control is a winning legislative agenda. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6Dj8tdSC1A contact the governor https://govnews.ca.gov/gov39mail/mail.php In Memory of Spc Torres May 5th 2006 al-Hillah, Iraq. I will miss you my friend. NRA Life Member. |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|