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  #41  
Old 01-04-2016, 5:26 PM
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According to these guys from Stockton (I was referred from other sales pages) they are still able to build AR pistols. Bolt style maybe?

https://www.facebook.com/kwdefenseinc/?fref=ts

http://www.kwdefense.com/
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  #42  
Old 01-04-2016, 5:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuuze View Post
According to these guys from Stockton (I was referred from other sales pages) they are still able to build AR pistols. Bolt style maybe?

https://www.facebook.com/kwdefenseinc/?fref=ts

http://www.kwdefense.com/
Without looking at the links its probably SSE 2.0

Essentially SSE is still alive as long as the handgun was NEVER semi automatic. It is sold as single shot and can be converted to semi by the owner. Building AR Pistols to meet this definition is relatively simple.

But that doesn't address the heart of the matter being discussed here.

"Can you build an AR Pistol with a lower DROS'd as a "rifle/longgun" here in CA?"
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  #43  
Old 01-04-2016, 5:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Please show me the law or explain why you think that DROSing something which it does not fit the legal definition of makes it legally something that it isn't. Does how something is DROSed really mean more than what it legally is? A virgin receiver does not fit CA's legal definition of "rifle" so, how can it legally be a "rifle"?

BTW, ATF has opined several times in writing that a virgin receiver DROSed in Ca as a long gun or rifle can be built into a handgun (assuming that it has never been assembled as a "rifle") without violating any Federal law.



Quote:
How are they "already long guns"? Can you show me where CA DROS legally makes them what they do not fit CA's legal definition of? The bottom line is that no one knows for sure one way or the other and won't know until case law is made.

Also, wireless claimed that it is illegal per ATF (Federal). So, some of us are showing him the error of his ways.
The DROS system has an option for long gun and handgun. As you can see by the CA law I quoted, California considers a "long gun" lower to be a rifle regardless of how it's configured. If you put a barrel on it less than 16 inches it's considered a SBR, regardless of the configuration.

The ATF/4473 has three options. Handgun, Long gun, Other. Stripped lowers that are bought as "other" can be configured into pistols. If you configure a registered rifle lower as a pistol, the ATF considers it a short barrel rifle. Since California does not provide an "other" option, a stripped lower is DROS'd as a long gun (unless already a registered pistol), meeting both state and federal definition of a rifle. Any configuration of a rifle lower as a pistol creates an illegal firearm- short barrel rifle.

The law is very clear that anything transferred as a rifle remains a rifle unless configured into a SBR. A pistol can be configured temporarily as a rifle and converted back to a pistol. The OP's question asked if he can make a pistol lower from his already DROS'd long gun lowers. The answer is no due to federal and state law.


Here is a recent example at the state level:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...tol-arm-brace/

and federal

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOLDEN GUN View Post
these two letters will answer your question...

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download


Last line second paragraph "Also, when purchasing or picking up your receivers, make sure your dealer does not describe them as 'rifles' on the ATF form 4473"


Once the gun has been transferred as a long gun/rifle it remains that way both state and federal law. The configuration the ATF is referring to has to do with lowers transferred as "other", we do not have "other" in CA DROS system.

My own personal experience was filling out a form 1 to create an AOW (an AR-PISTOL with a vertical fore grip less than 26 inches). The registered pistol lower had a model make of "m4 carbine". The ATF contacted me because they thought the lower was already a rifle, meaning I can't create an AOW or a pistol, only a short barrel rifle. I showed them Daniel Defense's pistol model is also labeled m4 carbine and they approve the stamp.

Last edited by wireless; 01-04-2016 at 6:42 PM..
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  #44  
Old 01-04-2016, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
arguing over semantics is the idea here. semantics created the entire OLL movement. semantics brought about the Bullet Button and other magazine locks. semantics brought about 2+ years of SSE. arguing about semantics has exposed other weaknesses in the written PC for our gain.
true
...and gangbangers will get whatever they need or want despite what Sacramento wishes to impose. Their real fear is their body politic being replaced/removed. Have them disarm their bodyguards.
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  #45  
Old 01-04-2016, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MonsterMan View Post
I've always thought what if you built a "long gun" from a new receiver. 16 inch barrel and pistol buffer tube. Not a rifle (no stock) so no bullet button needed, you can use pistol grip as normal and keep your magazines detachable. Not a pistol (16 inch barrel) so no worries there. I've thrown this out there a few times but nobody wants to try it. Others have built AR type long guns using spade grips and kept mag release detachable because it wasn't a rifle. They had pistol grips too. Thought this seemed like a neat idea.
This was talked about on CGN many years ago. I know at least one member who built an AR long gun which didn't have a stock but was over 30" in OAL. Since it is not a "rifle" or "pistol", it doesn't need a mag lock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOLDEN GUN View Post
well this is what we do know

all ar pistols need BB due to the magweel being outside the pistol grip

all rifles need a BB if it has either a telescoping stock, a pistol grip, or a flash hider

while putting a 16" barrel on a pistol lower is legal, u are utilizing your pistol on long gun configuration which would make you applicable to all long gun laws...

no matter what you need a BB unless you go featureless rifle

your contending because it doesn't have a stock it is not a rifle since it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder... good luck making your case to a judge who has no idea what your talking about.. let alone 6 jurors...

but i see what you are saying... my 1919 has a pistol grip with no stock.. yet it doesn't have a bullet button...
This is what we really know, putting a +16" barrel on a lower legally makes it NOT A PISTOL by both state and Federal legal definitions. Making a long gun that is not designed to be fired from the should is fine and it does not fit the legal definition of "rifle" in CA. If it did, why the hell would the legislature have put "designed to be fired from the shoulder" in the legal definition?

We also know that the grip on a 1919 is not "a pistol grip which protudes below the action" so, trying to compare the grip on a 1919 and the grip on an AR is plain stupid. It has nothing to do with it being a "rifle" or not. My 1919 A6 configuration is legal in CA without a mag lock even with a stock and the grip.
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  #46  
Old 01-04-2016, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by wireless View Post
[/U]




The DROS system has an option for long gun and handgun. As you can see by the CA law I quoted, California considers a "long gun" lower to be a rifle regardless of how it's configured. If you put a barrel on it less than 16 inches it's considered a SBR, regardless of the configuration.

The ATF/4473 has three options. Handgun, Long gun, Other. Stripped lowers that are bought as "other" can be configured into pistols. If you configure a registered rifle lower as a pistol, the ATF considers it a short barrel rifle. Since California does not provide an "other" option, a stripped lower is DROS'd as a long gun (unless already a registered pistol), meeting both state and federal definition of a rifle. Any configuration of a rifle lower as a pistol creates an illegal firearm- short barrel rifle.

The law is very clear that anything transferred as a rifle remains a rifle unless configured into a SBR. A pistol can be configured temporarily as a rifle and converted back to a pistol. The OP's question asked if he can make a pistol lower from his already DROS'd long gun lowers. The answer is no due to federal and state law.


Here is a recent example at the state level:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...tol-arm-brace/

and federal




Last line second paragraph "Also, when purchasing or picking up your receivers, make sure your dealer does not describe them as 'rifles' on the ATF form 4473"


Once the gun has been transferred as a long gun/rifle it remains that way both state and federal law. The configuration the ATF is referring to has to do with lowers transferred as "other", we do not have "other" in CA DROS system.

My own personal experience was filling out a form 1 to create an AOW (an AR-PISTOL with a vertical fore grip less than 26 inches). The registered pistol lower had a model make of "m4 carbine". The ATF contacted me because they thought the lower was already a rifle, meaning I can't create an AOW or a pistol, only a short barrel rifle. I showed them Daniel Defense's pistol model is also labeled m4 carbine and they approve the stamp.
Sorry, the Truth about Guns article is based on assumptions. The first is that registration can legally define what a firearm is. People get charged with all kinds of stupid things when they haven't committed any actual crime. Until there is a conviction and not just the rumor of someone being charged, there is no way of knowing for sure if it is legal or not.

On a Federal level, it is clearly legal to make a handgun from a virgin receiver no matter what CA's DROS and registration might consider it. As long as it has NEVER been configured as a "rifle" it can be built into a pistol. I sure don't see where ATF has opined that a virgin receiver transferred as a "receiver" is a "rifle". ATF doesn't give a rat's azz how the CA DROS form was filled out as long as the Federal form is filled out correctly.
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  #47  
Old 01-04-2016, 8:53 PM
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Why doesn't someone just submit a voluntary reg form to the CADOJ and see what happens. That in itself isn't a crime right?
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  #48  
Old 01-04-2016, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Sorry, the Truth about Guns article is based on assumptions. The first is that registration can legally define what a firearm is. People get charged with all kinds of stupid things when they haven't committed any actual crime. Until there is a conviction and not just the rumor of someone being charged, there is no way of knowing for sure if it is legal or not.

On a Federal level, it is clearly legal to make a handgun from a virgin receiver no matter what CA's DROS and registration might consider it. As long as it has NEVER been configured as a "rifle" it can be built into a pistol. I sure don't see where ATF has opined that a virgin receiver transferred as a "receiver" is a "rifle". ATF doesn't give a rat's azz how the CA DROS form was filled out as long as the Federal form is filled out correctly.
Wow. I literally posted the ATF letter that states make sure the dealer does not DROS the receiver as a rifle if you want to make it into a pistol configuration. I have no idea how else to get that through to you. Why don't you use the search button and confirm it yourself? A rifle is either a short barrel rifle or a rifle, it cannot be a pistol. The "configuration" refers to a receiver that has the OTHER box checked on the 4473 (federal). We do not have OTHER in the DROS system so all guns are either LONG GUNS or HANDGUNS. There is no third option. CA penal code specifically states a long gun with a barrel less than 16 inches in a short barrel rifle (which is why I provided you with that link as an example of CA SBR laws if you can't comprehend the posted penal codes in this thread). OP has a stripped lowers transferred as long guns. He cannot make a rifle into a pistol without violating both federal and state laws.

Here, I will take out the hard work for you

https://www.google.com/search?q=can+...sm=91&ie=UTF-8
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  #49  
Old 01-04-2016, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by wireless View Post
Wow. I literally posted the ATF letter that states make sure the dealer does not DROS the receiver as a rifle if you want to make it into a pistol configuration. I have no idea how else to get that through to you. Why don't you use the search button and confirm it yourself? A rifle is either a short barrel rifle or a rifle, it cannot be a pistol. The "configuration" refers to a receiver that has the OTHER box checked on the 4473 (federal). We do not have OTHER in the DROS system so all guns are either LONG GUNS or HANDGUNS. There is no third option. CA penal code specifically states a long gun with a barrel less than 16 inches in a short barrel rifle (which is why I provided you with that link as an example of CA SBR laws if you can't comprehend the posted penal codes in this thread). OP has a stripped lowers transferred as long guns. He cannot make a rifle into a pistol without violating both federal and state laws.

Here, I will take out the hard work for you

https://www.google.com/search?q=can+...sm=91&ie=UTF-8
LOL. You didn't post any letter talking about DROS. You posted a letter which advised the person to make sure it was legally transferred as a receiver. The firearm is legally transferred by the 4473 and not the DROS. ATF doesn't give a rat's AZZ what is filled out on a state reporting form. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand?????

Another thing you don't understand is that a long gun which is not a "rifle" or "shotgun" can have a barrel length of less than 16" and an OAL of over 26" and not be a SBR, SBS or NFA AOW. Yes, there are people who have done this in CA. In fact, it has been done in CA. One example is a 1919 with a sub 16" barrel. It is legally just a title one firearm. It is not a "rifle", "pistol" or "shotgun" by definition nor is it a NFA item. Another example is the FA XO-26. Even with an 11.5" barrel, it is not a "pistol" under Federal law and can have a VFG without being subject to NFA registration. It's not a SBR or SBS under CA law either.
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Last edited by CSACANNONEER; 01-04-2016 at 9:23 PM..
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  #50  
Old 01-04-2016, 9:28 PM
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I'm not sure how you aren't comprehending clear english. The letter is very, very clear.

California DROS system has LONG GUN and HAND GUN. A gun cannot be transferred any other way.

ATF 4473 has three options, RIFLE/LONG GUN, HANDGUN, and OTHER. A stripped lower is considered OTHER because it is not configured as a rifle or a handgun but is still a FIREARM.

Once again, in California we have to transfer stripped lowers as RIFLE or HANDGUN. When a stripped lower is transferred as a RIFLE, the ATF considers it to be a RIFLE. That's why in the letter it states to make sure the FFL does NOT transfer the bare receiver as a RIFLE.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/266557_.html

Read the FAQ

Here is a link to U.S. v. Kent

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=170
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  #51  
Old 01-04-2016, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by wireless View Post
I'm not sure how you aren't comprehending clear english. The letter is very, very clear.

California DROS system has LONG GUN and HAND GUN. A gun cannot be transferred any other way.

ATF 4473 has three options, RIFLE/LONG GUN, HANDGUN, and OTHER. A stripped lower is considered OTHER because it is not configured as a rifle or a handgun but is still a FIREARM.

Once again, in California we have to transfer stripped lowers as RIFLE or HANDGUN. When a stripped lower is transferred as a RIFLE, the ATF considers it to be a RIFLE. That's why in the letter it states to make sure the FFL does NOT transfer the bare receiver as a RIFLE.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/266557_.html

Read the FAQ

Here is a link to U.S. v. Kent

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=170
Please qoute the part of the letter that says CA DROs has anything to do with the the letter. All I see is where the letter clearly states "on ATF form 4473" and that's it.

BTW, I've never argued that one can make a pistol from a receiver that was first configured as a rifle. So, quite wasting your time with that. The fact is that CA DROS has NO legal bearing on Federal definitions.
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Last edited by CSACANNONEER; 01-04-2016 at 9:35 PM..
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  #52  
Old 01-04-2016, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffyhog View Post
Lets say somebody has a bunch of stripped lowers which they purchased before the long gun registration started. They build one of those lowers as a pistol and sell it to an unsuspecting buying as a PPT.

Would the transfer go through and the gun be registered as a pistol? The lower wouldn't have previously been in the database, right? As DJFLASH commented, there are probably cases where this has happened and there may be people out there who think they legitimately own AR pistols they bought from sellers who originally DROSed them as long guns.

At that point, the seller would be selling an unregistered handgun. Which would be illegal.

The issue is that it is NOT a registered handgun, nor was it at the point where it was sold as a new (vs used) firearm, nor is it able to be registered as a handgun, because it is no longer new, and it is not considered a "safe handgun" per the roster.
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  #53  
Old 01-04-2016, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MtnBksRCul View Post
At that point, the seller would be selling an unregistered handgun. Which would be illegal.

The issue is that it is NOT a registered handgun, nor was it at the point where it was sold as a new (vs used) firearm, nor is it able to be registered as a handgun, because it is no longer new, and it is not considered a "safe handgun" per the roster.
Huh? There is no law against selling an unregistered handgun in CA? In fact, it happens every day. There are still many legally owned and unregistered handguns in Ca. When one is legally transfered, it will become "registered" but, it's not a crime to sell a legally owned and unregistered handgun.
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  #54  
Old 01-04-2016, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MtnBksRCul View Post
At that point, the seller would be selling an unregistered handgun. Which would be illegal.

The issue is that it is NOT a registered handgun, nor was it at the point where it was sold as a new (vs used) firearm, nor is it able to be registered as a handgun, because it is no longer new, and it is not considered a "safe handgun" per the roster.
As CSA said, many (hundreds of thousands? likely 10's of thousands anyway) of unregistered and legal handguns in the state. At one time it was even legal to do face to face ppt without paper.
Also not a legal issue to ppt a handgun that is not on the roster (if processed through ffl, etc).
The problem (if any) would arise if there was a need for a trace starting with the manufacturer. Many things could happen then. If originally purchased out of state? Or transferred at some point out of Ca? It's also been documented in court that the Ca database is not perfect..........
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  #55  
Old 01-05-2016, 9:31 AM
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I'm just going to leave this here to clarify that CA DROS does NOT determine that a receiver is a long gun on a Federal level.

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  #56  
Old 01-05-2016, 9:36 AM
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Duh. That horse is already dead.
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  #57  
Old 01-05-2016, 9:44 AM
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Duh. That horse is already dead.
Not according to wireless's argument.
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