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Coronavirus/COVID19 Temp Forum This is a temporary forum for discussion, debate, sharing and helping each other during and in relation to the Coronavirus/COVID19

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  #161  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:06 AM
Ivan275 Ivan275 is offline
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Absolutely. You'd have to prove either a real medical condition or a real religion that holds vaccines are prohibited. And you'd have to prove you practiced it at least for some period before you refused the vaccine.
Prove that you practiced it for at least some time?

Just cause I went to church every week with with my gf doesn't make me religious, and just cause I have never stepped foot in church does not prove I'm not religious. Religion is in persons head, in the beliefs they hold, it is something that no one can prove.
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  #162  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:08 AM
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Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
For those of you whose workplace mandated vaccinations, how did you deal with it? I don't want the vaccine now.

Did you reluctantly get vaccinated to keep your job? Did you quit? Something else?
K, Thanx, BYE!

In a mild violation of my own rules...

F*** your mandatory vaccine and F*** you if you want to try to force it on me.
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  #163  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:25 AM
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Prove that you practiced it for at least some time?

Just cause I went to church every week with with my gf doesn't make me religious, and just cause I have never stepped foot in church does not prove I'm not religious. Religion is in persons head, in the beliefs they hold, it is something that no one can prove.
I dont disagree. But in a courtroom, you have the burden of proof if you are making such a claim.
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  #164  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:29 AM
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CG87 if you are say christian and say it goes against your belief. Can the employer bring in another christian who say it doesn't go against the beliefs ? How would that work ?
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  #165  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SPUTTER View Post
I forgot to add, if you are concerned about the current unapproved experimental vaccine, an employer can't mandate it just based on the fact it's not properly tested. If they ever get approved, then it's a different story apparently.
The EEOC and DFEH have already suggested otherwise
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  #166  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:31 AM
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Originally Posted by blkoutdb View Post
CG87 if you are say christian and say it goes against your belief. Can the employer bring in another christian who say it doesn't go against the beliefs ? How would that work ?
I’d recommend getting a letter from your spiritual leader, pastor, etc. and have some scriptural backup. They usually won’t just take your word for it
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  #167  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:32 AM
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Oh it doesn't apply to me at all. I'm just curious haha
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  #168  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:50 AM
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Originally Posted by blkoutdb View Post
CG87 if you are say christian and say it goes against your belief. Can the employer bring in another christian who say it doesn't go against the beliefs ? How would that work ?
Likely. They arent forced to take anything you say at face value. Expect the other side to challenge such claims. As an example, if someone claimed their strong catholic faith prohibits them from being vaccinated, i know for a fact that there is no papal or other directive. There is some concern over one of the three being made through the use of aborted fetal tissue, but thats not a blanket “dont get vaccinated” directive.

Bottom line, if you’re going to make claims like that, youd better be able to prove them.
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  #169  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:51 AM
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Originally Posted by rklapper View Post
The EEOC and DFEH have already suggested otherwise
He can’t be reached. Hes on that fake high where he thinks he knows more than an attorney who practices in this area. Heady stuff.
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You are talking to someone who already won this lame conversation, not a brick a wall. Too bad you don't realize it.
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Unfortunately for you, I have the truth on my side and... I’m definitely better than you at what you make a living from.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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  #170  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:57 AM
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Thanks CG87!
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  #171  
Old 04-20-2021, 10:42 AM
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Tell them it's just like abortion - my body, my choice!
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  #172  
Old 04-20-2021, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by blkoutdb View Post
Thanks CG87!
No problem!
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You are talking to someone who already won this lame conversation, not a brick a wall. Too bad you don't realize it.
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Unfortunately for you, I have the truth on my side and... I’m definitely better than you at what you make a living from.
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  #173  
Old 04-20-2021, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rklapper View Post
The EEOC and DFEH have already suggested otherwise
I suggest you read them a bit more slowly.
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  #174  
Old 04-20-2021, 4:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
K, Thanx, BYE!

In a mild violation of my own rules...

F*** your mandatory vaccine and F*** you if you want to try to force it on me.
Worthy of a bump!
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  #175  
Old 04-20-2021, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SPUTTER View Post
I suggest you read them a bit more slowly.
https://www.dfeh.ca.gov/wp-content/u...19-FAQ_ENG.pdf

please educate yourself. DFEH has already provided guidance in the above link as to how an employer can go about requiring vaccinations in the workplace (i.e., by complying with the FEHA and ADA).
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  #176  
Old 04-20-2021, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rklapper View Post
https://www.dfeh.ca.gov/wp-content/u...19-FAQ_ENG.pdf

please educate yourself. DFEH has already provided guidance in the above link as to how an employer can go about requiring vaccinations in the workplace (i.e., by complying with the FEHA and ADA).
I'm not going to argue with you. I've read the dfeh and of course California has written it in a vague and unclear manner but there's a difference between unapproved and approved. "Authorized" is unapproved. It's unethical to mandate an experimental medical intervention and illegal worldwide. If you don't understand it, that's on you and don't bother wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise.
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  #177  
Old 04-20-2021, 6:43 PM
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Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
If it's employer mandated, and you have any issues near term or long term, wouldn't that trigger a worker's comp claim?

Would having the mandate in writing aid in future worker's comp claims?

.
You would need to prove the vaccine caused the issues.
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  #178  
Old 04-20-2021, 8:01 PM
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You would need to prove the vaccine caused the issues.
Didn't need to prove covid was caught at the workplace.
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  #179  
Old 04-20-2021, 8:48 PM
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I'm not going to argue with you. I've read the dfeh and of course California has written it in a vague and unclear manner but there's a difference between unapproved and approved. "Authorized" is unapproved. It's unethical to mandate an experimental medical intervention and illegal worldwide. If you don't understand it, that's on you and don't bother wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise.
What’s “ethical” has no relevance as to what’s legal under California employment law, which is why we’re talking about here. Please point me to any legal authority suggesting otherwise.
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  #180  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:12 PM
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It would be good if we could get some better facts and legal advice about this. Too many posters in this thread think boasting, or their skill in writing creative insults, is the best proof of their wisdom. The situation seems to be evolving rapidly and it's hard to figure out what's legit in time before you get fired... as of yet there is no NRA for people who don't want to get vaccinated, and it is hard to know whom to turn to.
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  #181  
Old 04-20-2021, 9:39 PM
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What’s “ethical” has no relevance as to what’s legal under California employment law, which is why we’re talking about here. Please point me to any legal authority suggesting otherwise.
Did I say that? I merely stated it's unethical to mandate an experimental medical intervention on a human being. You do understand the problem with that, right?

Now, go back to the dfeh and scroll down to the part that says, "May an employer require an employee to be vaccinated against Covid-19?" Read the answer. It clearly says "approved" vaccine. Are the current covid vaccines "approved"? No, they are not, they are just authorized for emergency use. For further information on that topic, go to the FDA website.

If you still don't understand it after reading it, then I can't help you because I'm not an English teacher.
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  #182  
Old 04-20-2021, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
YOUR OWN SOURCE, which you apparently havent bothered to read, opens with this paragraph:

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recently issued two Emergency Use Authorizations (EUAs) for Covid-19 vaccines, and may soon issue a third. Public health officials have begun vaccine administration via state-based priority access plans. Discussion of vaccine mandates is plentiful, including the potential for state-issued orders and private directives from employers and other non-governmental entities. What remains unclear is the legality of mandates for EUA vaccines.

Tell me again how “theres no need to discuss”, oh wise arbiter of what the law is.
It is crystal clear: you and your DS bulllies have been recently shot down repeatedly and your egos can't handle it. Are you defending the forced vax or the individual's right to choose? Pick a side. There is no middle ground.

Are you genuinely or willfully ignorant of the Nuremburg Code?

Last edited by bootstrap; 04-20-2021 at 10:21 PM..
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  #183  
Old 04-21-2021, 4:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Creeping Incrementalism View Post
It would be good if we could get some better facts and legal advice about this. Too many posters in this thread think boasting, or their skill in writing creative insults, is the best proof of their wisdom. The situation seems to be evolving rapidly and it's hard to figure out what's legit in time before you get fired... as of yet there is no NRA for people who don't want to get vaccinated, and it is hard to know whom to turn to.
I saved this fine post: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...&postcount=100

And this was posted somewhere - saved it too: https://www.americasfrontlinedoctors...ccines-the-law

And you're right, most of all threads (especially about covid) are just a bunch of bickering with very little substance.
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GET OFF MY CACTUS!
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Last edited by LBDamned; 04-21-2021 at 4:53 AM..
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  #184  
Old 04-21-2021, 6:33 AM
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Dis gunna bee guud

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It is crystal clear: you and your DS bulllies have been recently shot down repeatedly and your egos can't handle it. Are you defending the forced vax or the individual's right to choose? Pick a side. There is no middle ground.

Are you genuinely or willfully ignorant of the Nuremburg Code?
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  #185  
Old 04-21-2021, 6:55 AM
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It is crystal clear: you and your DS bulllies have been recently shot down repeatedly and your egos can't handle it. Are you defending the forced vax or the individual's right to choose? Pick a side. There is no middle ground.

Are you genuinely or willfully ignorant of the Nuremburg Code?
Get a clue. We are discussing whether it can be mandated or not. Not whether i agree with the fact that its legal. Can you not differentiate between those two?

If i tell someone that it is illegal under CA law to buy a 30 round magazine today, am i a DOJ bully? Am i supporting the law?

Anyone who conflates a discussion of what the law is with support for the law is incapable of having an adult conversation.

Are you genuinely or willfully ignorant of the difference between discussing a law and supporting a law?

Edit: to distill it further, you’re the guy who gets arrested, hires a lawyer to deal with the issue, then rages at the lawyer for telling you that you are in trouble.
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Print it out and frame it for all I care
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I don't need to think at all..
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You are talking to someone who already won this lame conversation, not a brick a wall. Too bad you don't realize it.
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Unfortunately for you, I have the truth on my side and... I’m definitely better than you at what you make a living from.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Last edited by Citadelgrad87; 04-21-2021 at 6:58 AM..
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  #186  
Old 04-21-2021, 7:19 AM
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  #187  
Old 04-21-2021, 7:35 AM
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You have a right to deny it on grounds of religious liberty due to it deriving from cell lines of aborted baby's. #prolife

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  #188  
Old 04-21-2021, 8:19 AM
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Did I say that? I merely stated it's unethical to mandate an experimental medical intervention on a human being. You do understand the problem with that, right?

Now, go back to the dfeh and scroll down to the part that says, "May an employer require an employee to be vaccinated against Covid-19?" Read the answer. It clearly says "approved" vaccine. Are the current covid vaccines "approved"? No, they are not, they are just authorized for emergency use. For further information on that topic, go to the FDA website.

If you still don't understand it after reading it, then I can't help you because I'm not an English teacher.
Not an English teacher but this is my field and I can tell you parsing words like that won’t help in this case since the DFEH and EEOC are not distinguishing between “approved” vs “authorized” for purposes of determining whether an employer can mandate a vaccine. The answer is: they can, subject to normal discrimination laws/analysis.
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  #189  
Old 04-21-2021, 8:38 AM
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Seems like we only have two practical choices..
Be fired or get the vax.

Most don't have the time or funds to initiate a precident lawsuit.
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  #190  
Old 04-21-2021, 8:56 AM
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You have a right to deny it on grounds of religious liberty due to it deriving from cell lines of aborted baby's. #prolife

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Only one of the three is derived from aborted tissue, IIRC. I think the J and J.
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Print it out and frame it for all I care
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I don't need to think at all..
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You are talking to someone who already won this lame conversation, not a brick a wall. Too bad you don't realize it.
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Unfortunately for you, I have the truth on my side and... I’m definitely better than you at what you make a living from.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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  #191  
Old 04-21-2021, 9:04 AM
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As an aside the Pfizer and Moderna used reproduced fetal cells to test efficacy of their vaccines.
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  #192  
Old 04-21-2021, 9:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rklapper View Post
Not an English teacher but this is my field and I can tell you parsing words like that won’t help in this case since the DFEH and EEOC are not distinguishing between “approved” vs “authorized” for purposes of determining whether an employer can mandate a vaccine. The answer is: they can, subject to normal discrimination laws/analysis.
Like I said before, refer to the FDA website. The FDA makes a clear distinction between "FDA approved" and "FDA Emergency Use Authorization". The two are not the same and the current covid vaccines are cleared for EUA only.
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  #193  
Old 04-21-2021, 9:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rklapper View Post
Not an English teacher but this is my field and I can tell you parsing words like that won’t help in this case since the DFEH and EEOC are not distinguishing between “approved” vs “authorized” for purposes of determining whether an employer can mandate a vaccine. The answer is: they can, subject to normal discrimination laws/analysis.
That's very dangerous. I saw something recently that if you have antibodies from having caught the rona and then get a vaccine, people have felt like crap, sometimes worse. There's a "dueling antibodies" effect. That might be why the second shot tends to kick people's *ss too. I heard on the radio today a woman say she had the rona last year and just the first shot kicked her *ss.

If I had the rona, there's no way I would take the needle. You don't have to have caught the rona to have antibodies either. Any exposure to the virus, even with a virus load too small to give you the disease, can kick off an immune response. That might also partially explain why estimates are that people with antibodies are 10x ones that tested positive.
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  #194  
Old 04-21-2021, 10:11 AM
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Like I said before, refer to the FDA website. The FDA makes a clear distinction between "FDA approved" and "FDA Emergency Use Authorization". The two are not the same and the current covid vaccines are cleared for EUA only.
Doesn't much matter what the FDA said, it's what kali says.

From that DFEH thing;
Quote:
VACCINATION
May an employer require its employees to be vaccinated against COVID-19?
Short Answer
: Under the FEHA, an employer may require employees to receive an FDA-approved vaccination against COVID-19 infection so long as the employer does not discriminate against or harass employees or job applicants on the basis of a protected characteristic, provides reasonable accommodations related to disability or sincerely-held religious beliefs or practices, and does not retaliate against anyone for engaging in protected activity (such as requesting a reasonable accommodation).

Explanation
: The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) authorized and recommended three vaccines against COVID-19 infection, and the FDA may approve other vaccines for use in the United States. As safe and effective vaccines against COVID-19 infection become more widely available, employers may wish to encourage their employees to get vaccinated. Here, DFEH does not provide guidance on whether or to what extent an employer should mandate vaccination within its workforce. Rather, this FAQ and the following FAQs address how an employer complies with the FEHA if it decides to require employees to be vaccinated against COVID-19 infection with an FDA-approved vaccine. The FEHA prohibits discrimination and harassment on the basis of a protected characteristic; therefore, if an employer mandates or encourages vaccination in its workforce, the employer’s vaccination policy or practice must not discriminate against or harass employees or job applicants based on a protected characteristic, such as disability, perceived disability, or religion.
This is all part of the SAME ANSWER to the question. Getting nit-picky about the words "authorized" and "approved" is stupid because the DFEH thing clearly uses them interchangeably.
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Old 04-21-2021, 10:19 AM
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Doesn't much matter what the FDA said, it's what kali says.

From that DFEH thing;


This is all part of the SAME ANSWER to the question. Getting nit-picky about the words "authorized" and "approved" is stupid because the DFEH thing clearly uses them interchangeably.
Thanks for clarifying my response. Agree with your earlier comment too but feeling crappy after a vaccine probs not sufficient justification to support not getting it under a disability accommodation analysis. The murky part is potential for worse, but again that’s just conjecture. 10/10 an employer mandating vaccines will overrule an objection on a ground like that if they have any legitimate undue hardship argument (like if they’re in healthcare, etc).
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  #196  
Old 04-21-2021, 10:32 AM
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None of these details and theories should matter.

There should be no justification necessary for one's choice.

Not being vaccinated has no impact on those who choose to be vaccinated. Since they have no damages, and no reasonable expectation of future damages, they have no standing to take action.

It seems we have turned our backs on the traditional system of law.

Last edited by Scota4570; 04-21-2021 at 10:34 AM..
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  #197  
Old 04-21-2021, 12:09 PM
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None of these details and theories should matter.

There should be no justification necessary for one's choice.

Not being vaccinated has no impact on those who choose to be vaccinated. Since they have no damages, and no reasonable expectation of future damages, they have no standing to take action.

It seems we have turned our backs on the traditional system of law.
Lots of holes in this argument, but the easiest is to imagine if you work in a hospital, choose not to get vaccinated, and contract a disease that then sickens your immunocompromised patient population.
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  #198  
Old 04-21-2021, 1:20 PM
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None of these details and theories should matter.

There should be no justification necessary for one's choice.

Not being vaccinated has no impact on those who choose to be vaccinated. Since they have no damages, and no reasonable expectation of future damages, they have no standing to take action.

It seems we have turned our backs on the traditional system of law.

100%

It appears that many have forgotten how to stand up for themselves.


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  #199  
Old 04-21-2021, 1:22 PM
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100%

It appears that many have forgotten how to stand up for themselves.


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It appears that you arent following what is being discussed.

This is NOT a thread about whether people should choose whether or not to get vaccinated, or whether people support the state of the law.

What is IS is a thread about whether you can be fired for not getting vaccinated under current California law.
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  #200  
Old 04-21-2021, 1:36 PM
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It appears that you arent following what is being discussed.

This is NOT a thread about whether people should choose whether or not to get vaccinated, or whether people support the state of the law.

What is IS is a thread about whether you can be fired for not getting vaccinated under current California law.
actually that's not what the thread is about... it morphed into that - but it's not the thread topic.
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