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Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner.

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  #1  
Old 02-12-2014, 12:07 AM
anthonyca anthonyca is offline
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Default Have You Ever Had to Arrest a Combative Subject Who Knew How to Fight?

These are serious questions and I am not trying to make light of these life and death situations. I am not trying to be an internet tough guy.

I am asking this here because you guys have to arrest people who often don't want to be arrested and sometimes they want to take their anger against the world out on you.

The recent thread from a female asking about becoming a LEO also perked my interest when one of the LEOs reminded those reading, that someone had to put that no neck gang banger in jail, he most likely didn't volunteer to be there.

Many people take a few self defense classes or a martial art and they think that they can take on anyone.

Have you ever used or had to use any kind of martial art? Has someone used it on you or a fellow officer, if so how did it work? Do most people just go into primal fight mode and forget training or does the training stay with you in that life and death situation?

Have you ever faced an extremely determined and dangerous subject who could not be taken with out multiple officers?

My father helped an officer in the western addition in SF when I was young. The officer was knocked down multiple times by a very strong career criminal. My dad helped the officer by knocking the guy off balance and circling while pretending that he was helping him get away. My dad kept telling the guy that he didn't want to do this and he should run now. The guy swung at my dad but missed but my dad didn't fight with him, he just kept knocking him off balance while telling him he was trying to help him get away.

By this time, the officer got up and was able to take the guy down so my dad backed away but the guy overpowered the officer again and was trying to get his gun. My dad knocked him off again and eventually the officer was able to cuff him. That guy was literally trying to kill the officer.

My dad was a white guy who was the maintenance supervisor in a predominately black housing project, the last thing he wanted was for the area thugs to know he helped a cop so he was trying to be covert.

My dad boxed and his cousin fought for a world title and trained some pretty famous boxers in SF. He said that that helped him many times.

Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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Old 02-12-2014, 5:29 AM
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Old 02-12-2014, 8:07 AM
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I work in a jail and every inmates claims they are mma expert. I never lost fight thou so far, knocking on the wood. However, if you do feel like you need a back up than call for back up before making the move.
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Old 02-12-2014, 8:28 AM
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Back up. Back up. Back up.
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Old 02-12-2014, 9:10 AM
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There is a wise old saying around these parts:

"Don't fight fair. Fight to win."
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:41 AM
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Fear the quiet ones.



Dont fight fair and use your tools, gear, words, partners.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:04 PM
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"polyester pile" comes to mind.
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Old 02-12-2014, 1:26 PM
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Backup…..
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Old 02-12-2014, 1:32 PM
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No but I did witness a Pacific islander friend from high school knock out a cop that was clowning him. It was epic because he deserved it. -g
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Old 02-12-2014, 1:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Man WC View Post
No but I did witness a Pacific islander friend from high school knock out a cop that was clowning him. It was epic because he deserved it. -g
Yea, that's a felony. You're a part of the crime if you helped hide your friend.

There is a point when reasonable force becomes lethal to the suspect in question. That is up to the officer at that time, during the event to consider.

If it was a tiny female officer VS a giant steroid injected guy and he continued to advance, I'd say she had legitimate fear for her safety as an officer and lethal force could very well be an option.

Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 02-12-2014 at 2:01 PM..
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Old 02-12-2014, 2:30 PM
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Back up. Back up. Back up.
This, and remember you have a metal club which can break bones.
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Old 02-12-2014, 3:06 PM
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Yes, but most offenders don't train to fight 4+ officers at once, so it doesn't do a lot of good.

I'm less concerned about the guys with training than the guys who are high as a kite and feeling no pain. A while back it took six of us to take down a guy who was super high on meth and very determined to stay out of jail.
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Old 02-12-2014, 3:19 PM
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I small guy thats been smoking sherm sticks is much more dangerous than most yoked out fighters. The more muscle they have, the more effective the taser can be
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Old 02-12-2014, 3:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
Many people take a few self defense classes or a martial art and they think that they can take on anyone.
If it was a good martial arts instructor, they would have learned that there is always someone better...that is why most folks who are skilled fighteers don't get in fights.

Quote:
Have you ever used or had to use any kind of martial art?
Yes, mostly grappling moves

Quote:
Has someone used it on you or a fellow officer, if so how did it work?
Yes...and not very well. Of course they could have just been posers
1. Guy tried a "ninja jump" off a roof top as I walked along a walkway...I just stepped out of the way
2. Guy tried a roundhouse kick...I stepped inside his leg and grabbed his crotch (fight over)
3. Guy started flailing a set of Nunchucks as we came up...I circled to his right, he turned and took out his own knee

Quote:
Do most people just go into primal fight mode and forget training or does the training stay with you in that life and death situation?
Depends on how you are trained...you'll default to your lowest level of training

Quote:
Have you ever faced an extremely determined and dangerous subject who could not be taken with out multiple officers?
Yes, you just keep going until you get enough officers there.

As already said, the worst are the ones high on drugs. When they demonstrate certain behaviors before I come into physical contact with them, deadly force can always be an option
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Old 02-12-2014, 3:39 PM
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A family member (Cousin) was almost killed after pulling over a guy, he suffered a terrific beating and long hospital recovery.
The suspect was finally over powered by two more officers arriving as backup all LEO were injured.

The guys that let you know how tough they are rarely deliver, In my experience The ones that are quiet are the guys that should have you on full guard.
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Old 02-12-2014, 6:47 PM
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As a boot, one of first fights was against a 6'03" 230lb Crip who still had his Jailhouse Yoke going on. I'm 6'02" 195 and fit. I handed it to him in about 45 seconds. Like really handed it to him. Made me feel really good as several of his buddies were watching and thought he was gonna bring it.

A few weeks go by and it's me and a 5'02' 130lb El Salvadorian. He hit like a truck at the speed of a Corvette. He blistered me. Only thing that saved me was my radio and the ensuing response. Turns out he was ex ES military.

A good thing to learn no matter how bad you are; "There is ALWAYS someone out there that can kick your arse." As soon as you forget that, you're dead.
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Last edited by WyattandDoc; 02-12-2014 at 6:57 PM..
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Old 02-12-2014, 8:07 PM
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I'm not a street cop but as a 21 YO officer on training in the jail my first fight was a 300 lb naked black lady in intake. All I could think was shoot where do I grab her. About 4 yrs into my career I got into a fight with a big guy who was in our "ad-sep" unit, I had a good repore with the guy but this day he was acting bizarre. I was walking up the stairs behind him, when got to the top I was about 4 stairs down he turned and put his fists up and came at me. I rushed him and slammed him into the wall and pushed him half way down the top tier and I took him to the ground, my partner said it looked like I "pile drive" him. I don't remember how I took him down I just took him down hard. When I looked up we were both face down I lurched forward got him in a head lock and then put him in cuffs, I think he was knocked out briefly by the ground. My hand swelled up like a softball and was a pretty green color, also had to have two knee surgeries from my knee impacting the concrete so hard. I've been in a lot of fights and have been fortunate not to get my tail beat. Not saying it couldn't happen, just hasn't happened yet. Be safe out there everyone.
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Old 02-12-2014, 9:36 PM
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Always use your force options available to you. You dont have to fight fair, but use reasonable force, to control the situation and suspect, to maintain control, until you have rendered the scene and yourself safe.
If you need more hands, get on that radio ASAP and get your team their. (And hopefully you have your 10-20 out prior to making contact with a subject...).
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:18 PM
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There's one guy who tuned up two of my friends(deputies) after beating up half the black inmates in his housing unit: guy is a white crook and had a problem with the black inmates in unit, they jumped him and he proceeded to school them + the two large deputies who showed up to "save" them from the crazy white prisoner. Since then, I've had numerous encounters with him at my present agency. He's been Tased, OC'd, nunchcucked, had two K9s sent on him, etc. Every time he gets out of control or hurts someone, it's a call the whole shift kind of thing + maybe the next city, too.

Someday, he's gonna kill one of us or we'll kill him. I don't know how he has not gotten three strikes for all of his shenaningans.

There are some real bad guys out there who know how to fight and will kill you.
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Old 02-13-2014, 6:57 AM
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^^^ We had a similar guy in custody when I was working the jail. Every time we took him out of his cell (he lived in the hole), we had a video camera going. The guy would attack anyone he could if given a chance.

In patrol I ran into a few guys that gave us a good fight. The worse was a naked Samoan guy that was high on PCP. Baton's had little effect on him until one of his shins was taken out.

Lots of crazy people out there...
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Old 02-13-2014, 2:54 PM
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A fellow retired LEO friend of mine & his partner had to fight a wrestling coach AFTER the coach was handcuffed. That coach was all about leg sweeps and kicking the officers when they went down. They had a pretty hard time with him. They finally got him into custody, but it was a public relations nightmare.

Best part of martial arts training (in this discussion) is really the ability to take a punch and not so much giving one.

Most that really know how to fight don't.....those that THINK do fight.
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Old 02-13-2014, 5:42 PM
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Never fought anyone who actually knew how to fight well.....thankfully. Mostly just street thugs.

Hardest to fight are the chicks....specially high on meth, pissed off about a dude or getting burned on some dope and have nothing to loose.....
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Old 02-13-2014, 6:22 PM
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I always think whoever I contact can fight, fight better than me, or beat my ***. I've lived this way for quite some time because when I get in the mix with someone and come out ahead, it's mentally a bigger win. In The marines, there is a saying you learn early on, "one mind, any weapon". Anything goes in a fight, that dirtbag won't hesitate to grab anything they can get their hands on and beat you down, no should you.
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Old 02-13-2014, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoJackUSMC View Post
I work in a jail and every inmates claims they are mma expert. I never lost fight thou so far, knocking on the wood. However, if you do feel like you need a back up than call for back up before making the move.
Hey man, didn't you join the sheriffs or something, I remember you asking for advice, hows the job going? Dont you have a year in or something, don't worry you'll get your whooping sooner or later messing around in a jail. Just remember your training...wait a sec aren't you still on FTO? lol just messin with ya, nugg
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Old 02-17-2014, 7:02 PM
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Just for perspective keep in mind that there is a gun involved in every fight involving a cop/deputy etc. If there are 2 cops/deputies there then there are 2 guns. Just keep them in your hand or on your hip. Preferably on your hip if you're in a fight.
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Old 02-18-2014, 8:51 AM
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^^^ I had a guy try and get my gun out of the holster while we were fighting. I was able to keep the gun in the holster with my off hand, while striking the suspect with a flashlight with my other hand. Several strikes to the head with my Streamlight were effective and ended the fight. Scary incident, but the retention system in the holster did it's job.
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Old 02-25-2014, 6:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
These are serious questions and I am not trying to make light of these life and death situations. I am not trying to be an internet tough guy.

I am asking this here because you guys have to arrest people who often don't want to be arrested and sometimes they want to take their anger against the world out on you.

The recent thread from a female asking about becoming a LEO also perked my interest when one of the LEOs reminded those reading, that someone had to put that no neck gang banger in jail, he most likely didn't volunteer to be there.

Many people take a few self defense classes or a martial art and they think that they can take on anyone.

Have you ever used or had to use any kind of martial art? Has someone used it on you or a fellow officer, if so how did it work? Do most people just go into primal fight mode and forget training or does the training stay with you in that life and death situation?

Have you ever faced an extremely determined and dangerous subject who could not be taken with out multiple officers?

My father helped an officer in the western addition in SF when I was young. The officer was knocked down multiple times by a very strong career criminal. My dad helped the officer by knocking the guy off balance and circling while pretending that he was helping him get away. My dad kept telling the guy that he didn't want to do this and he should run now. The guy swung at my dad but missed but my dad didn't fight with him, he just kept knocking him off balance while telling him he was trying to help him get away.

By this time, the officer got up and was able to take the guy down so my dad backed away but the guy overpowered the officer again and was trying to get his gun. My dad knocked him off again and eventually the officer was able to cuff him. That guy was literally trying to kill the officer.

My dad was a white guy who was the maintenance supervisor in a predominately black housing project, the last thing he wanted was for the area thugs to know he helped a cop so he was trying to be covert.

My dad boxed and his cousin fought for a world title and trained some pretty famous boxers in SF. He said that that helped him many times.

Thank you.
The one who prevails may not be the biggest, strongest or fastest. It'll be the one who is most willing to inflict harm at the drop of a hat. There are folk who are perfectly sociable one minute and homicidal the next.

If you put your hands on a person like this, you'll be fighting them most likely and you have to sometimes just go equally bats*** with them. Once the fight starts, you have to be ALL IN. You still may get an a** whipping.

A partner of mine and I had to brace up a guy who was 6'9" and every bit of 400 lbs. He saw we were all business, he wasn't UI and we were in his home. We kept him calm and we didn't have to fight. I'm not certain both of us could have controlled this guy if he was REALLY enraged. ]If the tea is too hot to touch, it's probably too hot to drink. If you want to avoid a fight, make sure you have your mates with you, and don't be the burner that heats the tea.

Like others have said here....it's the quiet ones you can't read that are the biggest potential threat. Are they quiet because they are intimidated or because they are becoming enraged? You can't always tell. If they become enraged you'll know soon enough.

You owe it to yourself to be in the best shape you can be and practice weaponless combat with uncooperative training partners. Making time for this is really hard, however.
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Old 02-25-2014, 6:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post


Yes...and not very well. Of course they could have just been posers
1. Guy tried a "ninja jump" off a roof top as I walked along a walkway...I just stepped out of the way
2. Guy tried a roundhouse kick...I stepped inside his leg and grabbed his crotch (fight over)
3. Guy started flailing a set of Nunchucks as we came up...I circled to his right, he turned and took out his own knee

The last one is the best!
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