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  #81  
Old 12-06-2013, 5:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisBrooklyn View Post
It's whoever handed her that revolvers fault. An unexperienced shooter has no business handling a calibre of that magnitude.
^this. long before ever setting foot on the range, i showed my girlfriend how to load, hold, aim and safely handle each weapon. the whole, "lets get a kick out of how inexperienced shooters react" mentality is plain unsafe
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  #82  
Old 12-06-2013, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by redcliff View Post
Reading comprehension for the win next time, k?

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Originally Posted by redcliff View Post
Personally I think the super heavy recoiling handguns like the S&W .500 and DE 50AE are examples of "just because you can build something doesn't mean you should".
I read what you wrote.

Why don't we substitute some words

Personally I think the super heavy recoiling handguns really fast cars like the S&W .500 and DE 50AE Ferrari Porsche are examples of "just because you can build something doesn't mean you should"

In a free society you CAN build something just because you can. In this state, your thinking is why we can't do a damn thing.

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  #83  
Old 12-06-2013, 6:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Baboosh View Post
Yup, when kids or anyone I have not personally shot with shoots the desert Eagles I load 1 round only.
This. If I'm with a new person and they REALLLLY want to shoot a caliber I believe is out of their league of control, I give them ONE round at a time.
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  #84  
Old 12-06-2013, 6:48 PM
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I don't think these guns should be outlawed, or that the manufacturer should be forced to make any changes. I also don't think the manufacturer is to blame for the accident.

I would be cool of the S&W to give a little heads-up, tho. Obviously, not everyone knew or knows that this happens and the most that they mention in the manual is basically heavier recoil rounds can be "uncomfortable." Hell, a person could read the current manual and even place their hands on the gun as directed, but that means nothing if they don't have enough strength to control it.
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  #85  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Dannicus View Post
I don't think these guns should be outlawed, or that the manufacturer should be forced to make any changes. I also don't think the manufacturer is to blame for the accident.

I would be cool of the S&W to give a little heads-up, tho. Obviously, not everyone knew or knows that this happens and the most that they mention in the manual is basically heavier recoil rounds can be "uncomfortable." Hell, a person could read the current manual and even place their hands on the gun as directed, but that means nothing if they don't have enough strength to control it.
Why? It's a gun. It's going to recoil.
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  #86  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:17 PM
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I have no interest in shooting such a caliber and have been shooting awhile. I would never ask ask a rookie to grab and give it a go. Blame the idiot users not the manufacturer.
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  #87  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:26 PM
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Default no thanks

my buddy has a tompson contender 45-70 a 454 a 460 and i have no interest in ever shooting one of them. to let that lady shoot above her ability was stupid.
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  #88  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rugershooter View Post
Why? It's a gun. It's going to recoil.
Intentionally acting thick isn't cute, chief.
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  #89  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
The accidental double tap tendency

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  #90  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dannicus View Post
Intentionally acting thick isn't cute, chief.
Neither is acting stupid. Guns recoil. Big guns recoil more. Even novices know that. It doesn't take a f**king rocket scientist to figure that out.
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  #91  
Old 12-06-2013, 8:00 PM
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  #92  
Old 12-06-2013, 8:04 PM
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Pointless caliber... men like having women shoot over powered novelty guns for some reason. I wouldn't even shoot a .500. There's nothing to be gained.
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  #93  
Old 12-06-2013, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kentactic View Post
Pointless caliber... men like having women shoot over powered novelty guns for some reason. I wouldn't even shoot a .500. There's nothing to be gained.
I wouldn't say pointless. It's a hunting gun for big to huge game. But many do seem to buy them for the novelty.


There were plenty of heavy recoiling pistols before the 500. The TC in 45-70, custom Bowens, the DE in 50 AE, 454 Casull, etc. The recoil isn't the issue. It's the fools that put them in the hands of inexperienced shooters. No warning label or notice will prevent that.
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  #94  
Old 12-06-2013, 8:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kentactic View Post
Pointless caliber... men like having women shoot over powered novelty guns for some reason. I wouldn't even shoot a .500. There's nothing to be gained.
Sure there is.
I don't have a .500, but I do have a .454, i have no trouble shooting this revolver accurately enough to hunt with out to 50 yards and it is my sidearm when backcountry where I hunt and fish.
Not my favorite plinker, but i shoot it often enough to maintain proficiency and regularly put 50rds/week through it in the weeks prior to hunts.
That said, the last 3 seasons though I had it with me i still took my elk with my rifle (30-06).
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  #95  
Old 12-06-2013, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
The accidental double tap tendency

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Originally Posted by Brown Rock View Post


Hey, put me in their hands, I'm fairly certain I'd fire pretty rapidly too.
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  #96  
Old 12-06-2013, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by epic1856 View Post
I think this sums up some of the sentiments some folks have posted.

Griping about making a racket in the lane next to you (says the video)? Uhhh its a gun range and guns go boom.

Man those guys talked 22 minutes about the same damn thing...lol
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  #97  
Old 12-06-2013, 9:05 PM
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Originally Posted by kentactic View Post
Pointless caliber... men like having women shoot over powered novelty guns for some reason. I wouldn't even shoot a .500. There's nothing to be gained.

Fun.
As in a helluva lot of, live a little.
That is greatly something to be gained and some of us enjoy "shaking hands with god" now and then with this caliber.

And I despise irresponsible unsafe dickheads that hand this caliber over to inexperienced shooters.
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  #98  
Old 12-06-2013, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
I was with my boss the first we took some people out to shoot his, including him. We didn't have anyone lose control of the gun like that but I am glad I only loaded one round at a time.
Thank you; this is actually very good advice, and while I've never entertained the idea of handing over my S&W .500 or F.A. .454 Cassull to just anyone, should I ever do so in the future in a wish they want to try firing it, I will harken back to your post and do the same; that is a great idea. I might not have thought to do that, because in my connotation I would be loading it as I always might, from my own expectations, experience, and perspective.

Yes, I've seen a lot of videos like this girl, fumbling dangerously with the gun after the first shot to the point of the barrel coming back and muzzle-sweeping their own face/head/chest, or where the shooter has the revolver arc back and hammer bonks them on the top of the head or forehead; a single round chambered would definitely be a safe bet.

If I sound overly serious; well, I think it's warranted.
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What compelling interest has any level of government in knowing what guns are owned by civilians? (Those owned by government should be inventoried and tracked, for exactly the same reasons computers and desks and chairs are tracked: responsible care of public property.)

If some level of government had that information, what would they do with it? How would having that info benefit public safety? How would it benefit law enforcement?

Last edited by The Gleam; 12-06-2013 at 9:55 PM..
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  #99  
Old 12-06-2013, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by The Gleam View Post
Thank you; this is actually very good advice, and while I've never entertained the idea of handing over my S&W .500 or F.A. .454 Cassull to just anyone, should I ever do so in the future in a wish they want to try firing it, I will harken back to your post and do the same; that is a great idea. I might not have thought to do that, because in my connotation I would be loading it as I always might, from my own expectations, experience, and perspective.

Yes, I've seen a lot of videos like this girl, fumbling dangerously with the gun after the fist shot to the point of the barrel coming back and muzzle-sweeping their own face/head/chest, or where the shooter has the revolver arc back and hammer bonks them on the top of the head or forehead; a single round chambered would definitely be a safe bet.

If I sound overly serious; well, I think it's warranted.
You don't sound overly serious, you sound like you have some sense.
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  #100  
Old 12-07-2013, 3:36 PM
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The 500 in an 8 3/8" barrel is no problem for an experienced shooter. I have the 460 in 8 3/8" and full power loads are easier to shoot than 44 magnum from a single action.

I have let newbie women shoot my 460 when they are green to guns, but I have a routine that makes it safe.

I reload all of my centerfire pistol and rifle ammo. I have 4 levels of power for the 460.

Start new/unknown shooter off with 10/22 rifle
then Ruger MkIII Hunter in 22 lr

38 spl or 9mm
40 or 45 semi auto pistol

then the 460 xvr with 45 colt loads at 750fps with a 230 grain LRN
before they shoot this load, I have them grip the unloaded gun as if they are going to fire it. I will hold the gun by the barrel and simulate the recoil they will feel, and then some. I let them know exactly what they are in for and how to properly stand and grip the gun. They get 1 round of 45 colt to start, then a cylinder full, when they can control the gun.

I do the same with a 460 cartridge and a 270 grain boolit at 1000 fps. All the women who have tried this round have had no problem, as long as they can hold the gun properly.

A 270 at 1400-1500 fps is a handful and many people tap out before this, or I just don't let them do it because of safety reasons. I don't recall letting any women shoot this load.

A 240 or 300 Jword over 41-45 grains of magnum pistol powder is a full power load. I can handle the recoil with no problem. A hot 500 Smith is more of a handful.

I shoot mostly 45 colt and light 460 loads and I mix in some medium and hot loads. You don't have to drive a Corvette ZR1 at full throttle to enjoy it, not that I have had that pleasure.

My current shooting partner is a woman who has bad wrists and a bad shoulder. She shoots my 30-06 bolt gun all the time, with light to medium loads, out to 230 yards. I won't let her shoot the full power loads, as she can only take so many medium loads and I won't let her be turned off or harmed by the sport if I can help it. If I only had factory loads, she would have to use recoil pads, extra weight on the gun, etc., or not shoot it.

My first dirt bike was a Yamaha wr426f. It was heavy and had a ton of power. I could blow by people like they were standing still and I never even hit full throttle in 5th gear, and I made some fast passes on dry lakes with it. I knew it was more than I could handle, so I took it slow. I eventually got hurt on it, but it was a freak thing at about 10 mph. I had the same type of crash before, but this time it twisted my leg too far and broke it. The weight of the bike caused some of the injury. I was willing to play the game, and I had to deal with the consequences. Should big, and fast dirt bikes be banned? I could have rode a 250 instead.
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  #101  
Old 12-07-2013, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by meaty-btz View Post
A 500 S&W is not a firearm for anyone without experience, period. It is very powerful and accidents happen much too easily. Double or even triple fires are not uncommon and thankfully the recoil ignition is pretty rare.
That one also damages thumbs too close to the cylinder. The mythbuster guys tested it. They totally didn't believe the stories but their tests showed it can happen. The put some chicken near the areas people claimed to be injured by having their thumbs near and it shredded it... in several test fires.
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  #102  
Old 12-07-2013, 4:00 PM
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I had to think this one over before commenting.... maybe the appropriate response would be only rent out guns of standard, manageable calibers. This is like someone renting a drag racer and ending up dying in a crash - not entirely surprising. Sure some people can handle it but its not worth the liability if it were my business.
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  #103  
Old 12-07-2013, 4:11 PM
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I have fired a 500 S&W twice. Once when relatively new to shooting. Guy had a snubbie, and handloads. They were hot loads velocity wise, but a lighter bullet, so not too bad. Even then I almost hit myself in the head. I had to tell my friend he couldn't do it and I thought it was too dangerous (he was excited, first time at the range...but he almost hit himself in the head with my .357 magnum, and that was a heavy Single Action. Switched him to .38 spl and coach him a bit on holding it)


The 2nd time was years later. It was a full size one, but with the heavier bullets. Seems to me it has harder recoil, but I managed it better. A lot better. But still not the funnest to shoot.

No away I would let anyone I bring to the range (unless as much or more experienced than I) near one.
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  #104  
Old 12-07-2013, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sl0re10 View Post
That one also damages thumbs too close to the cylinder. The mythbuster guys tested it. They totally didn't believe the stories but their tests showed it can happen. The put some chicken near the areas people claimed to be injured by having their thumbs near and it shredded it... in several test fires.
There are definitely other calibers besides the .500 that can have the same effect(possibly worse), while most would do significantly less damage. Even a little NAA .22lr will let you know if you have your thumbs in line with the cylinder gap(maybe a little sting, but it's not going to tear your finger open).

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Originally Posted by ramathorn View Post
I had to think this one over before commenting.... maybe the appropriate response would be only rent out guns of standard, manageable calibers. This is like someone renting a drag racer and ending up dying in a crash - not entirely surprising. Sure some people can handle it but its not worth the liability if it were my business.
That's certainly a decision that a business owner can make for themselves, and not necessarily a bad one. However there are people who can handle such a firearm who might want to rent one. Another idea would be to have staff trained to understand such firearms and discuss it with the possible renters first. Maybe even only allow them to rent it after some basic instruction at the line, and charge appropriately for the clerk having to spend more 1 on 1 time.

But the thing to consider is just how many times guns like the S&W .500(and it's variants), or .50AE desert eagles, and other powerful handguns get rented across the country, and how many times this has happened. Once? I agree that this incident shouldn't have happened at all, and was completely preventable. However, panicking and freaking out like a bunch of safety ninnies(claiming S&W needs to print crap on the gun or in the manual, claiming that such guns shouldn't be made, etc.) over one incident is not how responsible gun owners who make decisions with facts and logic should behave.
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  #105  
Old 12-07-2013, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dfens View Post
What I don't understand is why don't they load it one at a time if the person is small framed and has little to no experience shooting such a beast of a caliber. That way after the first shot it can't go off again with no more rounds in the weapon.

Even myself I would try just 1 round to get a feel for handling it first since I've never fired the 500 SW.

I saw another youtube video where the muzzle flip hit the girl in the face muzzle first and if she pulled the trigger again on accident she would have been like this poor girl.
A lot of jackass think it's funny to watch people shooting guns beyond shooter's ability. Just check YouTube.
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  #106  
Old 12-07-2013, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RobG View Post
The issue is the people that like to watch inexperienced shooters fire a .44, .454, .500, etc., just so they can laugh it up as it recoils back in their face.
This^^^^ It seems so counter productive to get people involved in firearms then have them shoot a high recoil gun to see the barrel smack them in the forehead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamalpias View Post
Always start out small and work your way up in caliber to beginning shooters. My wife when she first started worked on a 22 and managed to get comfortable with my 9mm. She shot my 45 once and said it is a bit much so i stopped there. No way she can handle my 357 or 44 mag. The person that handed this poor girl that 500 had a lot of poor judgement.
Agreed. It's about being safe and having a good time. Not seeing someone almost lose it just to shoot a large caliber.

Had a friend of mine just yesterday telling me she went to a range for the first time with another newbie and rented a hand gun. They wanted something easy and the idiot behind the desk told her to rent a large caliber because you always start with large calibers and work down. WTF!!! I told her I'll take her to a range next time she wants to go.
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  #107  
Old 12-08-2013, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
But what is the DA trigger pull weight of a 500? I guess the only possible explanation is that the recoil of the gun made the shooter feel like she was loosing her grip so she squeezed her hand firing another round.
That is exactly what happens with some of the super mags my .460 will do it with the quickness if you are not holding on to it properly. When i let people shoot my it i only load one round at a time unless i have seen them shoot my gun before.
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  #108  
Old 12-08-2013, 12:26 AM
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anybody see the comments below the story from jc556n? sheesh..
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  #109  
Old 12-08-2013, 6:48 AM
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Originally Posted by blazeaglory View Post
Griping about making a racket in the lane next to you (says the video)? Uhhh its a gun range and guns go boom.

Man those guys talked 22 minutes about the same damn thing...lol
At the beginning of the video they explicitly said they weren't complaining about noise from mall ninja tactical types. They said what many in this thread said, that it's stupid and unsafe to give a powerful gun to a beginner who doesn't have the experience to safely shoot it.
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  #110  
Old 12-08-2013, 7:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisBrooklyn View Post
It's whoever handed her that revolvers fault. An unexperienced shooter has no business handling a calibre of that magnitude.
Exactly 1000% agree. If anything just 1 single round
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  #111  
Old 12-08-2013, 9:17 AM
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It wouldn't surprise me that the guy that handed her the gun blames it on the firearm instead of his own actions.

A few years past a friend of mine was at a football party where the father was to busy watching the football game to keep an eye on his infant daughter. He had the back door and gate to the pool tied open so the dog can have easy access taking a piss, and since their pool was never maintained and kept full he unplugged the wave monitor to his pool so it won't send false alarms. Well his daughter fell in and drowned and it wasn't till the mother came home and asked where was the baby that they realized she had drowned. He blamed it on a freak accident instead of his own negligence and wanted a reverse vasectomy so they can replace the daughter that drowned. There are people that are that clueless and dumb in this world, they will look to blame something else rather than their own actions.
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  #112  
Old 12-08-2013, 10:39 AM
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With the recoil being so much on the S&W .500, maybe they should put a forward grip under the barrel to help control the recoil. It's not a semi auto, so there wouldn't be any restrictions on such a modification. This might even be patentable!
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  #113  
Old 12-08-2013, 3:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramathorn View Post
I had to think this one over before commenting.... maybe the appropriate response would be only rent out guns of standard, manageable calibers. This is like someone renting a drag racer and ending up dying in a crash - not entirely surprising. Sure some people can handle it but its not worth the liability if it were my business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
That's certainly a decision that a business owner can make for themselves, and not necessarily a bad one. However there are people who can handle such a firearm who might want to rent one. Another idea would be to have staff trained to understand such firearms and discuss it with the possible renters first. Maybe even only allow them to rent it after some basic instruction at the line, and charge appropriately for the clerk having to spend more 1 on 1 time
We had a 500 and a 460 at our range. We only kept one or two boxes of ammo ready for them because no one would rent them. The people who rented them were usually looking to purchase (hunters and whatnot), and wanted to see if they could even handle it.

But we would always give the advice to start by loading only one round, and explained proper technique. We made sure that they knew that if they screwed up, they'd put a hole in the ceiling or their heads, and if they did so, the wouldn't be coming back (to life, or to the range, depending). But ultimately, it was the shooter's responsibility to use the firearm properly, because there was no way we'd be out there holding his or her hand while they were shooting.

Last edited by CrippledPidgeon; 12-08-2013 at 3:19 PM..
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:14 AM
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I do not get why this gun is DA: it is not a competition gun, nor is it a plinking choice, and one shot from a hunter will clear out the entire area. trigger reset is so ingrained for regular shooting that if the thought even crosses ones muscle memory with this gun there is a great chance of the bump fire as being discussed.

I know very little about SA, would this actually solve the problem?
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  #115  
Old 12-09-2013, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chickshooter View Post
I do not get why this gun is DA: it is not a competition gun, nor is it a plinking choice, and one shot from a hunter will clear out the entire area. trigger reset is so ingrained for regular shooting that if the thought even crosses ones muscle memory with this gun there is a great chance of the bump fire as being discussed.

I know very little about SA, would this actually solve the problem?
This would solve the problem of a negligent discharge due to recoil.
That said, the purpose of dbl action is to have quicker follow up than the 2 part motion that a single action requires.
In defensive (getting charged for instance) situations this can be the difference.

End of it all. The fault lies with the shooter, and to the ijit that gave the reportedly inexperienced shooter the firearm without proper training/experience/instruction/single load only.

Just a big deadly fail ...
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  #116  
Old 12-09-2013, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwtt View Post
With the recoil being so much on the S&W .500, maybe they should put a forward grip under the barrel to help control the recoil. It's not a semi auto, so there wouldn't be any restrictions on such a modification. This might even be patentable!
Would still be an AOW in that configuration, plus I don't want any part of my body aligned with the barrel-cylinder gap.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:06 PM
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Heavy stuff like this should not be outlawed. But, I would think the manufacturer would warn buyers of these potential hazards jus to cover the liability. How do they effectively do this...I don't know. Its no harder to buy a .500 than a .22 so Joe Blow is at his whim to buy one and hand it to his 90 lb girlfreind. Don't know what the answer is other than common sense. Like loading one at a time or every other cylinder. Fine line gets drawn when trying to declare how much recoil is to much recoil for the "average" novice shooter to handle.
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Last edited by Shorthair; 12-09-2013 at 12:09 PM..
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Shorthair View Post
Heavy stuff like this should not be outlawed. But, I would think the manufacturer would warn buyers of these potential hazards jus to cover the liability. How do they effectively do this...I don't know. Its no harder to buy a .500 than a .22 so Joe Blow is at his whim to buy one and hand it to his 90 lb girlfreind. Don't know what the answer is other than common sense. Like loading one at a time or every other cylinder. Fine line gets drawn when trying to declare how much recoil is to much recoil for the "average" novice shooter to handle.
Liability? S&W should have no liability for this, at all. Even if they did something to "warn the buyers", what does that do for renters? How does it stop Joe Dumbass from handing it to his inexperienced 90 pound girlfriend?
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:33 PM
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These tragedies will stop when guys with sexual organ size issues will stop giving little women big guns to shoot because they think it's funny.
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Old 12-09-2013, 2:21 PM
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It's whoever handed her that revolvers fault. An unexperienced shooter has no business handling a calibre of that magnitude.
This^^^^^
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