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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 12-05-2013, 6:26 PM
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Default References and letters of rec question - S.B. County

I'm starting the process to apply for a CCW/LTC permit in San Bernardino County.

My understanding is I will need 3 letters of recommendation and 4 additional references. (Please correct me if I'm mistaken).

I have a few good friends who are married, and my friend's parents who would be happy to be my references. Outside of this group, I'm running short of good people to ask.

Would it be smart to have my friend write one letter of recommendation, and separately list his wife (also my friend who I've known a long time) as a character reference?

This way I kind of get a 2 for 1 deal. Is there any way this would be restricted to only one reference? Or unable to use the spouse as a couple counts as only one deal?

Thanks.
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Old 12-05-2013, 6:39 PM
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You don't need references any more. A letter will be sent to your employer and your neighbors will be contacted in person. It's a painless process. Our county is very efficient and pro ccw. Enjoy and relax , you'll be done before you know it.
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Old 12-05-2013, 6:39 PM
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Unless things have changed recently, and they could very well have, because I have been in the system for a couple of decades, you are going to better off to have separate references. Otherwise you could list your wife, brother, sister, father, mother, get it?

Last edited by HighLander51; 12-05-2013 at 6:41 PM..
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Old 12-05-2013, 6:45 PM
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S.B. County's app says 3 goo character letters and 4 references. All different people meaning your references can't write good character letters for you. I wouldn't see a problem if they lived in the same house, as long as they aren't the same person.

As of right now, S.B. County isn't making the 3 good character letters mandatory, but will take them if you have them.
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Old 12-08-2013, 9:56 AM
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Wait what?!! They'll contact my EMPLOYER and NEIGHBORS??! That seems wrong.

@HighLander51: better off, or required?

I like the following answer the best, hope it's right:

Quote:
Originally Posted by firemanjoe View Post
S.B. County's app says 3 goo character letters and 4 references. All different people meaning your references can't write good character letters for you. I wouldn't see a problem if they lived in the same house, as long as they aren't the same person.

As of right now, S.B. County isn't making the 3 good character letters mandatory, but will take them if you have them.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:10 AM
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Yes, it's right. I have friends who have been through the process very recently!
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:42 AM
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They do skip the letters if you don't have them but I still think you're better off with them. They will also contact the police department of your local city and cities where you lived if you list any brush with the law in those cities, even if your NCIS is as clean as a whistle.
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Old 12-08-2013, 2:28 PM
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Sorry to ask this, but why do they send a letter to your employer? I'm curious since i plan on starting the process and my boss is anti.....
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmd View Post
Sorry to ask this, but why do they send a letter to your employer? I'm curious since i plan on starting the process and my boss is anti.....
The letter does not say it's for a CCW so you should be ok. I'm not sure why they do it, maybe just verification? It's amazing how deeply they look

If your employer replies you should be alright. SBSD seems to expect a certain percentage of the people they interview to be anti.

Last edited by Nopal; 12-09-2013 at 11:13 AM..
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:07 PM
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The letter to Employer is just a "verification" does not state for CCW, talking to neighbors is the same, they ask "character" questions they do not say for CCW either. 3 or 4 Character reference's on the application, do not need letters of reference anymore. The process is pretty painless as with any background check…just don't lie..you do you're out.
For the chance to be able to carry the background is not that bad at all.
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  #11  
Old 12-09-2013, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKofGLOVE View Post
Wait what?!! They'll contact my EMPLOYER and NEIGHBORS??! That seems wrong.

@HighLander51: better off, or required?

I like the following answer the best, hope it's right:
All they are doing is checking to make sure you are telling the truth about employment and residence. You are asking them to say it's ok for you to carry a gun….they have the right to check you out first.
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Old 12-09-2013, 4:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwlewis View Post
The letter to Employer is just a "verification" does not state for CCW, talking to neighbors is the same, they ask "character" questions they do not say for CCW either. 3 or 4 Character reference's on the application, do not need letters of reference anymore. The process is pretty painless as with any background check…just don't lie..you do you're out.
For the chance to be able to carry the background is not that bad at all.
It's actually a lot more process than other counties which do issue CCWs such as Butte or Alpine, etc. (also higher rate of denials than other gun-friendly counties), but it's not bad for Southern California.
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Old 12-09-2013, 7:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nopal View Post
It's actually a lot more process than other counties which do issue CCWs such as Butte or Alpine, etc. (also higher rate of denials than other gun-friendly counties), but it's not bad for Southern California.
To me it's great for So Cal. I can carry now.
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  #14  
Old 12-10-2013, 6:40 AM
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True.
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  #15  
Old 12-10-2013, 7:32 AM
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Reference letters are no longer required in SB county.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:17 AM
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Article from the San Bernardino Sun

http://www.sbsun.com/20120729/rise-i...tario-gun-show

By Beatriz E. Valenzuela, Staff Writer

Posted: 07/28/12, 9:00 PM PDT|

ONTARIO - Over the last three years, the number of concealed-weapon permits issued in San Bernardino County has increased, keeping step with a predicted increase of firearms statewide.

In 2009, 2,250 people had permits issued by the Sheriff's Department, according to spokeswoman Cindy Bachman. Now, 2,800 county residents have concealed-weapon permits. That's an increase of nearly 25 percent in three years.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by USPSA GM View Post
Reference letters are no longer required in SB county.
This is correct. References are no longer required. Their old requirement that you must first apply to your local police agency is no longer necessary either.

Just pick up the app, fill it out and call for your interview. My neighbor just picked up his app and says the wait time for interview is now barely over a month.
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  #18  
Old 12-10-2013, 3:29 PM
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RockofGlove,

I did my interview in July and received my CCW last month. I did not need to provide letters of recommendation and they did not even ask for them. When I asked them about the letters, they said if I had them, they would take them but do not require them.

They did contact at least one neighbor of mine and said they were conducting a non criminal background investigation. However, on my employee verification letter, they disclosed the fact that I was applying for a permit to carry a concealed weapon. This caused some waves at my workplace but I cleared that hurdle.

If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me because I just went through this process so much of it is still fresh in my mind.

Last edited by Garyson1311; 12-10-2013 at 3:36 PM..
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Old 12-10-2013, 3:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmd View Post
Sorry to ask this, but why do they send a letter to your employer? I'm curious since i plan on starting the process and my boss is anti.....
The letter is to verify your employment and also has some some questions in regards to your character.
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Old 12-10-2013, 3:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nopal View Post
The letter does not say it's for a CCW so you should be ok. I'm not sure why they do it, maybe just verification? It's amazing how deeply they look

If your employer replies you should be alright. SBSD seems to expect a certain percentage of the people they interview to be anti.
The letter my employer received specifically stated that I had applied for a permit to carry a concealed weapon with the county sheriff.

At first, my employer said they would not send the letter back (They are antis) and at this point, I called the detective and asked her what would happen if my employer did not respond and she told me that she would be forced to decline my application for a CCW. I got it all taken care of but was nervous for a little while.

Last edited by Garyson1311; 12-10-2013 at 3:45 PM..
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  #21  
Old 12-10-2013, 7:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nopal View Post
The letter does not say it's for a CCW so you should be ok. I'm not sure why they do it, maybe just verification? It's amazing how deeply they look

If your employer replies you should be alright. SBSD seems to expect a certain percentage of the people they interview to be anti.
Garyson1311 "The letter my employer received specifically stated that I had applied for a permit to carry a concealed weapon with the county sheriff."

And that was just refuted... So Nopal, do you actually have a CCW permit from San Bernardino? Or because you don't have a permit just comment on how things should be anyway?

Last edited by HighLander51; 12-11-2013 at 6:27 AM..
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garyson1311 View Post
RockofGlove,

I did my interview in July and received my CCW last month. I did not need to provide letters of recommendation and they did not even ask for them. When I asked them about the letters, they said if I had them, they would take them but do not require them.

They did contact at least one neighbor of mine and said they were conducting a non criminal background investigation. However, on my employee verification letter, they disclosed the fact that I was applying for a permit to carry a concealed weapon. This caused some waves at my workplace but I cleared that hurdle.

If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me because I just went through this process so much of it is still fresh in my mind.
If true I stand corrected.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:14 AM
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^this is correct
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  #24  
Old 12-13-2013, 7:13 AM
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Hmm, interesting. My employer said the letter wasn't specific. I stand corrected as well.

Edited to clarify (cough...Highlander...cough): My employer didn't tell me any specifics about the letter and asked what the letter she'd just gotten from the sheriff was about. I therefore assumed that the letter didn't mention what it was for a CCW/LTC.

Last edited by Nopal; 12-16-2013 at 8:01 AM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 12-13-2013, 7:22 AM
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Yeah I actually saw it, read it, and was surprised by what it said.


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Old 12-14-2013, 10:53 AM
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Why on earth would they mention that? It's not their place to let your employer know that.

Last edited by Nopal; 12-15-2013 at 8:11 AM..
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  #27  
Old 12-15-2013, 5:12 PM
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The one page form sent to my employer, which I have a copy of, was specifically looking for character and temperament information.

It disclosed that I was applying for an LTC (They called it a "Concealed Weapons Permit") and it asked questions that do not take into account whether the employer is Pro- or Anti-.

First some basic stuff, like when you were hired, what your job title is and would they hire you again.

Then it asked them to rate you as per your Ability, Cooperation, Disposition and Reliability.

Finally it asks if a CCW is required for your job and provides a small space for remarks. I don't know but I suspect that if the employer were to put an "Anti-Rant" in the remarks that the Investigator would simply smile and stamp "Approved". (Just my opinion of our County Sheriff.)

The employer refusing to complete the form, as initially happened to Garyson, raises an interesting dilemma. I suspect that would be good cause to lay a small lawsuit on their doorstep. Unfortunately that would take cubic quantities of both time and money to prevail.
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Old 12-16-2013, 7:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eventhorizons View Post
The one page form sent to my employer, which I have a copy of, was specifically looking for character and temperament information.

It disclosed that I was applying for an LTC (They called it a "Concealed Weapons Permit") and it asked questions that do not take into account whether the employer is Pro- or Anti-.

First some basic stuff, like when you were hired, what your job title is and would they hire you again.

Then it asked them to rate you as per your Ability, Cooperation, Disposition and Reliability.

Finally it asks if a CCW is required for your job and provides a small space for remarks. I don't know but I suspect that if the employer were to put an "Anti-Rant" in the remarks that the Investigator would simply smile and stamp "Approved". (Just my opinion of our County Sheriff.)

The employer refusing to complete the form, as initially happened to Garyson, raises an interesting dilemma. I suspect that would be good cause to lay a small lawsuit on their doorstep. Unfortunately that would take cubic quantities of both time and money to prevail.
What would be the basis for such a lawsuit? How can you legally compel the employer to answer truthfully, or to answer at all?
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nopal View Post
What would be the basis for such a lawsuit? How can you legally compel the employer to answer truthfully, or to answer at all?
Honestly, I'm not sure. That would take some real research. I'm definitely not a lawyer, though my Ex often accused me of thinking like one!

My initial thought was under some kind of "restraint" concept perhaps?

If the employer were totally dedicated to their cause you would probably be unsuccessful.

However, in the real world it is all about money and appearances. Remember, you can sue anybody for anything. If you were willing to take them on and it looked to them like the whole thing would escalate into a big ugly mess, then they would probably quietly complete the form. The bigger the company the better this would usually work.

But who is going to take it to that level? Who has the time, money and patience?
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:46 AM
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AFAIK...
The employment verification info/questionnaire goes under making sure you are a person of "good moral character". [PC 26150(a)(1)]
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
Article from the San Bernardino Sun

http://www.sbsun.com/20120729/rise-i...tario-gun-show

By Beatriz E. Valenzuela, Staff Writer

Posted: 07/28/12, 9:00 PM PDT|

ONTARIO - Over the last three years, the number of concealed-weapon permits issued in San Bernardino County has increased, keeping step with a predicted increase of firearms statewide.

In 2009, 2,250 people had permits issued by the Sheriff's Department, according to spokeswoman Cindy Bachman. Now, 2,800 county residents have concealed-weapon permits. That's an increase of nearly 25 percent in three years.
2,800 LTCs issued with the County Population being 2.08 Million.
That is about 1 LTC for every 742 people in the county.

Kern County had about 4,100 LTCs issued in 2011 with a County Population of 856,000.
That is about 1 LTC for every 208 people in the county.
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Old 12-16-2013, 1:26 PM
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Yes, but San Bernardino is catching up quickly. They are turning over 100 permits a month now. You guys won't be number one for very long in total permits, of course it will take awhile to catch up per capita permits.

Last edited by HighLander51; 12-16-2013 at 1:28 PM..
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nopal View Post
What would be the basis for such a lawsuit? How can you legally compel the employer to answer truthfully, or to answer at all?
At first my employer refused to sign it but after I talked to someone at HR they had mentioned that they may only be able to fill out the parts asking about my hire date, etc (Essentially doing nothing more than verifying my employment) due to "company policy".

I then called the detective and asked if it would still work if my employer did not answer the questions about my character and only filled out the stuff verifying my employment. To my surprise, she said that it was quite common for employers to only be willing to fill out the employment verification and nothing else and that I should still be okay.

I don't know if my HR dept ended up filling out the character questions or not but I did end up with my ccw.
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Old 12-17-2013, 7:51 AM
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I picked up my packet from the sheriff's office in November and have my interview scheduled for the 7th of January. There was not a section in the application for references or character witnesses and no mention of it anywhere. This is no longer a requirement.
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Old 12-17-2013, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
Yes, but San Bernardino is catching up quickly. They are turning over 100 permits a month now. You guys won't be number one for very long in total permits, of course it will take awhile to catch up per capita permits.
With what appears to be over double the denial rate of other gun-friendly counties, I doubt San Bernardino could do it.
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Old 12-17-2013, 1:22 PM
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With what appears to be over double the denial rate of other gun-friendly counties, I doubt San Bernardino could do it.
How do you know that SB denies at twice the rate of other counties? None of that data is published or public. Going off anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything. So you know of one, or two that were denied by SB, and hundreds that were approved....every month since the SB accelerated the program. Were you one of the denials?
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Old 12-17-2013, 2:45 PM
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Quote:
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With what appears to be over double the denial rate of other gun-friendly counties, I doubt San Bernardino could do it.
I would be curious to know what makes you say that? To me, it really feels like SbCo is movin' and groovin' when it comes to CCW issuance. At my range day it truly felt like CCW is something that Sheriff McMahon believes in.

Last edited by Garyson1311; 12-17-2013 at 2:48 PM..
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Old 12-17-2013, 4:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
How do you know that SB denies at twice the rate of other counties? None of that data is published or public. Going off anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything. So you know of one, or two that were denied by SB, and hundreds that were approved....every month since the SB accelerated the program. Were you one of the denials?
There is published data, but none recent that I can find (the latest that I've found is from 2008 I believe, and the rate of denial was higher then).

I spoke to Deputy Hendrix a few months back and she said that their approval rate was nearly 98%, which is pretty good, but other places in this forum cite approval ratings from other sheriffs above 99%. While the number of denials is still small, going from under 1% to over 2% is at least double. That 1% can potentially translate into hundreds of denials that other places would grant.

Look, I think this sheriff is on the right track, but for whatever reason he is a little pickier than other pro-gun sheriffs, and I've known of several people that have been denied on things that'll make you shake your head. Maybe is the fact that he is un-elected and is seeking to actually win the vote before going full bore shall-issue, maybe it's something else, but as good as his streamlining of the process is, his denial rate still seems to be a little on the high side.

Last edited by Nopal; 12-17-2013 at 5:24 PM..
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Old 12-17-2013, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Garyson1311 View Post
I would be curious to know what makes you say that? To me, it really feels like SbCo is movin' and groovin' when it comes to CCW issuance. At my range day it truly felt like CCW is something that Sheriff McMahon believes in.
I don't doubt his sincerity when it comes to believing in CCWs. I'm sure he's a man of principle. I do believe that some of his policies regarding denials need revisiting, though.
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Old 12-17-2013, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Nopal View Post
There is published data, but none recent that I can find (the latest that I've found is from 2008 I believe, and the rate of denial was higher then).

I spoke to Deputy Hendrix a few months back and she said that their approval rate was nearly 98%, which is pretty good, but other places in this forum cite approval ratings from other sheriffs above 99%. While the number of denials is still small, going from under 1% to over 2% is at least double. That 1% can potentially translate into hundreds of denials that other places would grant.

Look, I think this sheriff is on the right track, but for whatever reason he is a little pickier than other pro-gun sheriffs, and I've known of several people that have been denied on things that'll make you shake your head. Maybe is the fact that he is un-elected and is seeking to actually win the vote before going full bore shall-issue, maybe it's something else, but as good as his streamlining of the process is, his denial rate still seems to be a little on the high side.
No one of this forum can know how many permits are denied. That would only be know to the issueing agency, and they don't share that with other agencies, or publish that data. And once again, there is no shall issue in CA, it's may issue. Everything you say is based on a 'few people' you know, and not based on the thousands that have been approved, for this county and every other county. And the 'few' people that you claim to know that have been denied were not given a reason for denial. Since you don't know how many have been denied, there is no way to know the rejection rate or percentage of overall applicants approval/denial.

But one thing is for sure, there are only 4 kinds of people here.

The kind with CCW permits

The kind without CCW permits

The kind that have applied

The kind that have been denied

Which are you???

Last edited by HighLander51; 12-17-2013 at 7:44 PM..
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