Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > THE CALGUNS COMMUNITY > CGSSA Shoots, Meets and Range Stories
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

CGSSA Shoots, Meets and Range Stories Set up and organize shoots and meets and share your shooting range stories.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-06-2013, 3:01 PM
Germz's Avatar
Germz Germz is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,875
iTrader: 106 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default Gun Range FUD and bad luck

Visited our local gun range today, on I frequent semi-often. As the representative was inspecting my ammunition I opened my handgun case which contained four separated loaded magazines, separated and not inserted into the handgun.

She very tactfully begins to explain that this is not allowed and is considered a felony. I told her no its not. I explained why it wasn't. The representative then rallied all the other representatives who then repeat that it was illegal and a felony to transport ammo in the same container as the firearm, even if it was locked and separate; not physically attached to the firearm.
Great, good for you guys but 5 people repeating something doesn't make it accurate.

While transporting in this fashion may raise eyebrows, I'm not concerned with what opinions of best practice are, at the end of the day I'm well within my rights and its frustrating that one of the few refuges that allow us to shoot at (thats not BLM) is so misinformed.

One of the other representatives also made a comment that "You CAN transport that way, but if an officer were to see that he would arrest you...but the charges would be dropped". Right....While I know an officer can detain you for pretty much ANYTHING, that goes without saying.

Besides all that, it was just an unlucky day at the range. Some guy next to us shot my wife's shoot-n-c target with birdshot, then the motor on my target cable broke. Bad day overall.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-06-2013, 3:07 PM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 40,109
iTrader: 125 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Refer them to the CHP website. The laws on transporting firearms is there and correct.
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor


Offering low cost private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-06-2013, 3:10 PM
jarhead714 jarhead714 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: O.C.
Posts: 2,655
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

Print something from the CHP or DOJ website and carry it around like a chit.
Bust it out like a dark green Marine with a beard has to sometimes. Bam!!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-06-2013, 3:11 PM
LCU1670's Avatar
LCU1670 LCU1670 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Coachella Valley
Posts: 2,470
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Sorry to hear.
__________________
Waterborne!

Front Sight Heritage Member
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-06-2013, 4:32 PM
Hanse Davion's Avatar
Hanse Davion Hanse Davion is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 492
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

If I had to guess, this was at Firing Line Indoor shooting range. They supposedly had some DOJ guy come and spread the FUD in the first place and have been repeating that since as far as I can tell. Maybe it wasnt that range though, but I do know they said the same thing to me once.
__________________
NRA Endowment Member
CRPA Life Member

The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion . . . and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself--ultimate cost for perfect value. -R.A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-06-2013, 8:59 PM
jdben92883 jdben92883 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Corona
Posts: 2,838
iTrader: 154 / 100%
Default

Just be glad you didn't have lawful standard cap mags...they would have had a field day on you!!
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-06-2013, 9:22 PM
maggie06's Avatar
maggie06 maggie06 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ask the NSA
Posts: 323
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Had a firearms discussion with a retired leo sat. who is anti calif., pro 2nd amend., and has MSR's (modern sporting rifles) up the wazoo. I asked about carrying mags in same locked container as handgun, and he was adamant that by using some fish and game regulations, that it was illegal.

He stated he not only arrested these individuals, but got convictions in this manner.

I asked why he would do this to otherwise law abiding people, and he said they were acting like d$$ks, and otherwise he wouldn't have.

Maybe I didn't get all the details, but he told me a few times fish and game regs. were there, and to look them up.

I haven't yet, but OP's thread was a good time to throw this out there.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-06-2013, 9:31 PM
santamonica9's Avatar
santamonica9 santamonica9 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: the peoples socialist republic of los angeles
Posts: 1,491
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

can someone post a link please to the CHP site or the PDF - thank you
__________________
I mainly shoot .22lr, 9mm,45 acp, 357 & 38, 12G, 7.62x39, .308, .223/556, 7.62x54r, 300 win mag, 8x57
God Bless USA
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-06-2013, 10:06 PM
daringescape daringescape is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: West Covina, CA
Posts: 244
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by santamonica9 View Post
can someone post a link please to the CHP site or the PDF - thank you
CHP site - answering question about transporting with out of state CCW, but it applies to anyone.

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html#05
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-06-2013, 10:47 PM
SonofWWIIDI's Avatar
SonofWWIIDI SonofWWIIDI is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Santa Clara county
Posts: 18,609
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daringescape View Post
CHP site - answering question about transporting with out of state CCW, but it applies to anyone.

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html#05
Thanks for the link!
__________________
•=iii=<(
🎺

Dear autocorrect, I'm really getting tired of your shirt!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LugerDevil666 View Post
No more stupid threads. you have my word
Quote:
Originally Posted by LugerDevil666 View Post
Rule 1 I'll admit I'm a jerk when I post stupid thread.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmut Shmacher View Post
I'll do the picking.. Name wise .. if you don't mind...
Formerly lugerdevil666
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-07-2013, 6:15 AM
sl0re10 sl0re10 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,667
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Germz View Post
One of the other representatives also made a comment that "You CAN transport that way, but if an officer were to see that he would arrest you...but the charges would be dropped". Right....While I know an officer can detain you for pretty much ANYTHING, that goes without saying.
This is a fair suggestion. Its legal but even LEOs tend to not know this and might arrest you for it.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-07-2013, 6:35 AM
Germz's Avatar
Germz Germz is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,875
iTrader: 106 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanse Davion View Post
If I had to guess, this was at Firing Line Indoor shooting range.
Nope, its the one where North San Diego Chapter CGSSA holds some meets. The name of the range is: I don't use optics I use ____________

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomashoward View Post
I carry a print out for those who need to get up to speed
Ironically I had just had a printout in my bag, but the range I have been frequenting (that just closed due to Gov't shutdown) knew transporting laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdben92883 View Post
Just be glad you didn't have lawful standard cap mags...they would have had a field day on you!!
After I got my lane locked on, I went back to the representative that initially told me I was committing a felony and, long story short, told her "I'd rather just deal with how you want me to bring my gear in the store, however wrong it is, than not be able to come here and shoot".

she then told me "blah blah its for your protection. If you wanted to use high cap mags (in non-featureless configurations) we don't care but if an officer saw you we wouldn't want that happening here"

Like wtf? so double standard, and promoting a felony!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-07-2013, 6:54 AM
Eat Dirt's Avatar
Eat Dirt Eat Dirt is offline
CGSSA Specialist
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Riverside County / Hemet
Posts: 7,878
iTrader: 243 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Germz View Post
. The name of the range is: I don't use optics I use ____________




she then told me "blah blah its for your protection. !


Good One !!!!

That will put some Iron ... in your diet
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------

Tumbled BRASS For Sale

Just check my Long Running Thread : http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=262832

Last edited by Eat Dirt; 10-07-2013 at 8:07 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-07-2013, 8:03 AM
NytWolf NytWolf is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,798
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Germz View Post
One of the other representatives also made a comment that "You CAN transport that way, but if an officer were to see that he would arrest you...but the charges would be dropped". Right....While I know an officer can detain you for pretty much ANYTHING, that goes without saying.
l.
I would have said, "The charges would be dropped because it's not illegal."
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-08-2013, 7:39 AM
Leatherneck714 Leatherneck714 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 95
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarhead714 View Post
Print something from the CHP or DOJ website and carry it around like a chit.
Bust it out like a dark green Marine with a beard has to sometimes. Bam!!
Hahahaha, I'm on light duty Sergeant. Here is my light duty chit.


I would have told that person to check me in and I'll worry how I transport my weapon. If they were just being nice about it and their intent was to keep you out of trouble then it just goes into one ear and out the other.
If they were trying to reprimand you then the heck with them.

Last edited by retired; 10-08-2013 at 1:41 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-08-2013, 11:20 AM
Germz's Avatar
Germz Germz is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,875
iTrader: 106 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Oh wow I completely forgot to mention as part of my bad luck, I had a severe failure of a federal 9mm bulk round. went click with no boom, waited 10 seconds, then racked the slide. out pours the powder EVERYWHERE unburnt and the bullet was lodged in the barrel.

Just thought it was ironic because of all the reloaded ammo i was shooting that day the one magazine (that even more ironically was my HD magazine), the first round was a dud.

now that I think of it, If i really needed that in a life/death situation, i would have been hurting.

Last edited by retired; 10-08-2013 at 1:41 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-08-2013, 2:48 PM
Whiterabbit Whiterabbit is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 5,200
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

Why did you fight it? Is there anything wrong with respectfully letting the employees finish their explanation, thanking them for their concern, and continuing about your business anyways?

Were they not gonna let you shoot unless you had "corrected" their concern?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-08-2013, 7:59 PM
Germz's Avatar
Germz Germz is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,875
iTrader: 106 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
Why did you fight it? Is there anything wrong with respectfully letting the employees finish their explanation, thanking them for their concern, and continuing about your business anyways?

Were they not gonna let you shoot unless you had "corrected" their concern?
I let them finish. its was when she concluded her reasoning with "its a felony" is when I said no it isn't and gave my rebuttle.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-08-2013, 10:50 PM
Whiterabbit Whiterabbit is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 5,200
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

I'm almost sad I haven't had a chance to be in the same situation. I'd challenge her to call the authorities, having witnessed a "felony". If she really felt so strongly that it was illegal, it would be well within her rights to call the police.

In short, I'd bluff. I'm not much of a confrontational guy though, I'd rather kick the ball back to them and let them deal with it rather than argue....
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-09-2013, 1:27 AM
someoneeasy someoneeasy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Garden Grove
Posts: 1,511
iTrader: 22 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarhead714 View Post
Print something from the CHP or DOJ website and carry it around like a chit.
Bust it out like a dark green Marine with a beard has to sometimes. Bam!!
Haha, somehow each and everyone of those dark green Marines had a no shave chit... razor bumps, HA!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-09-2013, 4:41 PM
BumBum's Avatar
BumBum BumBum is offline
Corn-fed and Iowa-bred
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Gabriel Valley
Posts: 1,419
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

I attended a firearms continuing education course this past weekend, and one of the presenters was Michel and Associates. As an attorney, I had long viewed this as a legal grey area, but where you may be able to fight it and win. Of course, there are practical considerations. For starters, because the law is less than crystal clear in this area, there are lots of LEOs who will arrest you for this. For the same reason, you may get a zealous prosecutor who feels like rolling the dice even though he or she may not be 100% confident in their case against you. In any of these scenarios, and even if you get the DA to drop the charges, you will likely be spending a whole hell of a lot of money in attorney’s fees and expenses in fighting it. In my opinion (and seemingly everyone else’s), that is just not worth the risk.
__________________

DISCLAIMER: The information contained herein is general in nature, which may not apply to particular factual or legal circumstances, and is intended for informational purposes only. Consistent with Calguns policy, the information does not constitute legal advice or opinions and should not be relied upon as such. Transmission of the information is not intended to create an attorney-client relationship. Readers should not act upon any information in my posts without seeking professional counsel.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-09-2013, 6:24 PM
lanwarrior's Avatar
lanwarrior lanwarrior is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Near Walnut Creek
Posts: 564
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daringescape View Post
CHP site - answering question about transporting with out of state CCW, but it applies to anyone.

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html#05
I'd this the printout everyone is suggesting? I had the same crap when I went to Jackson Arm, a long time ago (when they were still in Oyster Point Blvd), but didn't have the printout.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-09-2013, 6:49 PM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,346
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BumBum View Post
I attended a firearms continuing education course this past weekend, and one of the presenters was Michel and Associates. As an attorney, I had long viewed this as a legal grey area, but where you may be able to fight it and win. Of course, there are practical considerations. For starters, because the law is less than crystal clear in this area, there are lots of LEOs who will arrest you for this. For the same reason, you may get a zealous prosecutor who feels like rolling the dice even though he or she may not be 100% confident in their case against you. In any of these scenarios, and even if you get the DA to drop the charges, you will likely be spending a whole hell of a lot of money in attorney’s fees and expenses in fighting it. In my opinion (and seemingly everyone else’s), that is just not worth the risk.
Someone did fight this and won not too long ago. I don't recall the case name, but it centered around shotgun shells in a buttstock holder. IIRC the ruling was that unless a round was in the gun in a position to be chambered and/or fired, the gun was not loaded.


Wish I could remember the case name,,,,,,it would be good to have that ruling on paper just in case....

edit:

Found it in (of all places) my glove compartment!

People v. Clark 1996

More info and the ruling here:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Peo...ark-(1996).pdf

Last edited by sofbak; 10-09-2013 at 7:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-09-2013, 9:19 PM
BumBum's Avatar
BumBum BumBum is offline
Corn-fed and Iowa-bred
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Gabriel Valley
Posts: 1,419
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
Someone did fight this and won not too long ago. I don't recall the case name, but it centered around shotgun shells in a buttstock holder. IIRC the ruling was that unless a round was in the gun in a position to be chambered and/or fired, the gun was not loaded.


Wish I could remember the case name,,,,,,it would be good to have that ruling on paper just in case....

edit:

Found it in (of all places) my glove compartment!

People v. Clark 1996

More info and the ruling here:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Peo...ark-(1996).pdf
That's certainly a case I considered and would rely on in arguing the issue. However, there is still a difference between shells in the buttstock and rounds in a magazine ready to be thrown into a handgun, hence the grey area. And remember, as I said above, just because you can win doesn't mean that there aren't other associated risks. I have had many a client who stated to me, "I don't care about the money, I just care about the principle" ... and usually they abandon this idea once they see the bill.
__________________

DISCLAIMER: The information contained herein is general in nature, which may not apply to particular factual or legal circumstances, and is intended for informational purposes only. Consistent with Calguns policy, the information does not constitute legal advice or opinions and should not be relied upon as such. Transmission of the information is not intended to create an attorney-client relationship. Readers should not act upon any information in my posts without seeking professional counsel.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-09-2013, 9:33 PM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,346
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

I don't think so. They spelled it out clearly via "ordinary sense"...

Quote:
Finally, we note that at most the Attorney General has raised a potential ambiguity in the use of the term "loaded." [3] As Clark correctly observes, ambiguities in statutes are to be construed in favor of the defendant; " ' "[t]he defendant is entitled to the benefit of every reasonable doubt, whether it arise out of a question of fact, or as to the true interpretation of words or the construction of language used in a statute. [Citation.]" ' " (People v. Garfield (1985) 40 Cal.3d 192, 200 [219 Cal.Rptr. 196, 707 P.2d 258].) [1c] Thus, to the extent an ambiguity exists between whether the Legislature intended the term "loaded" to be used in its ordinary sense (i.e., a shell placed in a position ready to be fired) or to be used in an unusual sense (i.e., including a shell placed in a storage compartment from which it cannot be fired), we adopt the construction more favorable to Clark, i.e., that the term was intended to be used in its ordinary sense and that the shotgun here was not loaded.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-10-2013, 5:01 AM
BumBum's Avatar
BumBum BumBum is offline
Corn-fed and Iowa-bred
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Gabriel Valley
Posts: 1,419
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
I don't think so. They spelled it out clearly via "ordinary sense"...
Understand that because the issue of a loaded magazine was not before the court, this is not a definitive statement of the law on the subject. If this were from the CA Supreme Court, I might have a different view. But this is just one decision from one district of the court of appeal who adopted this definition in this specific fact patter. While it is very, very persuasive, is not necessarily binding. Another court of appear could plausibly see it a little differently and adopt a different defintion. Because People v. Clark is all we have, and there are no other statutes or regulations on point, it remains unclear. Chuck Michel's book, "California Gun Laws" (published this year) discusses this issue at pages 112-113 and reaches the same conclusion.

LEOs are not lawyers, and you cannot expect them to be well-versed in appellate decisions while in the field. At the same time, prosecutors unfamiliar with the finer points of firearms law may not be persuaded, either. Quoting Michel (immediately following the Clark discussion):

Quote:
Of course, because it is is not clear, law enforcement could see it another way. Because of the different definitions of "loaded", ammunition should be transported in a way that it cannot contact the firearm to avoid problems with law enforcement, even though it may not be required.
__________________

DISCLAIMER: The information contained herein is general in nature, which may not apply to particular factual or legal circumstances, and is intended for informational purposes only. Consistent with Calguns policy, the information does not constitute legal advice or opinions and should not be relied upon as such. Transmission of the information is not intended to create an attorney-client relationship. Readers should not act upon any information in my posts without seeking professional counsel.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-10-2013, 8:32 AM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,346
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

I agree that all leos in the field are not up to date on court issued precedents and certainly all future rulings are based on the opinions of the issuing party, and you can never know for sure how it goes...

But given this from the CHP:


Quote:
I will be traveling to California and want to carry my weapon. I currently have a concealed weapon permit. How can I legally transport my weapon while driving through the state?
California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.[/
And these from P v. Clark:

Quote:
As Clark correctly observes, ambiguities in statutes are to be construed in favor of the defendant; " ' "[t]he defendant is entitled to the benefit of every reasonable doubt, whether it arise out of a question of fact, or as to the true interpretation of words or the construction of language used in a statute.
Quote:
Thus, to the extent an ambiguity exists between whether the Legislature intended the term "loaded" to be used in its ordinary sense (i.e., a shell placed in a position ready to be fired) or to be used in an unusual sense (i.e., including a shell placed in a storage compartment from which it cannot be fired), we adopt the construction more favorable to Clark, i.e., that the term was intended to be used in its ordinary sense and that the shotgun here was not loaded.
I think while possible, it would be largely improbable that one would be arrested for transport in this manner. Especially if the detainee had the foresight to carry this information with them while transporting and offered it up to the leo on the scene.

And even if arrested for this, it would seem even more improbable that even a (moderately) intelligent DA would go forward with charges.

But I acknowledge the plethora of variables in play from one district to the next, so I have to admit we'll never know for sure until a case comes along to settle it.......
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-11-2013, 6:01 AM
Germz's Avatar
Germz Germz is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,875
iTrader: 106 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

I think I will be picking that book up
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:49 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.