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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 07-05-2013, 2:25 PM
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Default AR Ballistic Comparisons

The common opinion online is that the 6.8SPC is better in the shorter ranges but then the 6.5mm Grendel takes over after 300 yards. I ran the ballistics for both rounds assuming a 16in barrel and using the Hornady 120grish SST hunting rounds. Looking at the results it seems that the Grendel actually takes over at the barrel not at 300 yards. The Hornady HITS score shows the Grendel is more effective as a deer rifle at all measured ranges not just after 300 yards. Notice that the Grendel has a 100 point HITS advantage already at 100 yards. Once again you have to beware of "experts" on forums and forum folklore in general.

http://www.hornady.com/hits/calculator

http://www.hornady.com/hits


Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-09-2013 at 11:29 AM..
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  #2  
Old 07-05-2013, 2:52 PM
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They are two different cartridges with two different purposes. They just happen to have some overlap. And I hate to say it, but your chart is old. The SPEC II 6.8 goes a bit faster than that. You are comparing apples to really old oranges. With the SPEC II information, the 6.8 holds its own until a bit farther out. Also, remember that the 6.8 wasn't designed to be a long range (for an AR platform) cartridge. It was designed to give a better punch than 5.56 out to 300 yards when fired from a shorter barrel. It does that quite well. The fact that it can't always beat a round that was designed for longer range shooting at longer ranges shouldn't be a surprise. The fact that it does hold even as long as it does, with a smaller case and powder charge, is just one of those serendipitous accidents.

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Old 07-05-2013, 2:58 PM
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That data is over the counter 6.8SPC 120 SST rounds and is up to date. Buy a box Hornady 120gr SST and fire it out of a SPC II upper and you get these or very close to these results. Did you miss my point the grendel beats it AT SHORTER RANGES not just long range. When using it for a hunting application.

Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-05-2013 at 3:03 PM..
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Old 07-05-2013, 3:05 PM
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(sigh) Grendelites. They are as bad as the 10mm zealots when you mention 40 S&W. Okay, I am backing away from the thread s-l-o-w-l-y. I am not making any sudden moves. Please feel free to go rock quietly in the corner with your rifle. And just keep telling yourself that it is better.

-Mb
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Old 07-05-2013, 3:10 PM
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I think what throws people off is that the 6.8SPC is larger caliber and has a larger muzzle velocity which makes people assume its better for hunting. The secret of the 6.5mm is the remarkably higher ballistic coefficient (BC). The Grendel maintains its velocity and penetrates deeper on impact. The short stubby 6.8SPC sheds velocity and energy quickly and does less damage on impact. Hence the lower HITS scores. Give the 6.8SPC a couple hundred more FPS at muzzle and the 6.5 Grendel still has a higher HITS score at muzzle. Once the argument moves away from old history and real data is used it become clear which one makes a better hunting rifle. If you disagree show us your data.

Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-05-2013 at 3:12 PM..
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Old 07-05-2013, 3:13 PM
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Neither are great due to the price. I'll start to care when I can get them at walmart and big5 for .40 cents a round consistently. While we are at it .338 Lapua is better. Oh, wait that's 5$ a round.
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Old 07-05-2013, 3:21 PM
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Nothing is going for 40 cents a round thats a decent hunting bullet. The 223 hunting rounds cost just as much or close to the Grendel rounds. You can't get them at Walmart or Big 5 but this thing called the internet is pretty cool.
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Old 07-05-2013, 3:45 PM
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Good luck centerfire folks, Xcountryrider was banned from the Hunting sub-forum.
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  #9  
Old 07-05-2013, 4:24 PM
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Default O RLY?

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Originally Posted by Xcountryrider View Post
Once again you have to beware of "experts" on forums and forum folklore in general.
Does that include people who quote HITS scores?

Although I bet you are right that the old ammo out of a new spec II upper behaves just like the old spec ammo. I'd be willing to bet that if you fired .223 out of a 5.56 upper you don't get the performance of 5.56. I've even heard that a .357 magnum firing 38 special is surprisingly anemic for a .357.

Sorry I don't have a spread sheet with HITS scores to back it up.
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Old 07-05-2013, 4:37 PM
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Does that include people who quote HITS scores?

Although I bet you are right that the old ammo out of a new spec II upper behaves just like the old spec ammo. I'd be willing to bet that if you fired .223 out of a 5.56 upper you don't get the performance of 5.56. I've even heard that a .357 magnum firing 38 special is surprisingly anemic for a .357.

Sorry I don't have a spread sheet with HITS scores to back it up.
If you take the figures and FPS numbers quoted by the 6.8SPC II handloaders the Grendel still beats it in the lower ranges as well as the upper ranges. The higher BC of the grendel makes the difference in terminal ballistics.

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  #11  
Old 07-05-2013, 4:38 PM
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I like my 6.8 just fine.It flat works.Thanks for the ballistic charts anyway.
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Old 07-05-2013, 4:54 PM
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I would remind you that those velocitys are from different length barrels . The grendel is 24" and the 6.8 spc is out of a 16" barrel . If you put the 6.8 in a 24" barrel it will be about the same maybe a bit better then the grendel . The 6.8spc will crush the grendel if you shoot the grendel out of a 16" barrel .I have the grendel losing 40fps per inch for 8 inchs putting it at 2260fps. I know you were trying to compare apples to apples but I think you missed that part .

6.8 spc look just below the bullet . It has the barrel length
http://www.hornady.com/store/6.8mm-SPC-120-GR-SST/

now look at the 6.5 grendel
http://www.hornady.com/store/6.5-Grendel-123-gr-SST/
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  #13  
Old 07-05-2013, 5:12 PM
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Both data is from 16in barrels in my chart. Notice my numbers for the grendel are not from a 24 in barrel.

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Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-05-2013 at 5:18 PM..
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  #14  
Old 07-05-2013, 5:20 PM
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I like my 6.8 just fine.It flat works.Thanks for the ballistic charts anyway.
Your correct it does work fine. Thats not my point.

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  #15  
Old 07-05-2013, 5:34 PM
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I had been doing some editting on my post but in short I get 2260fps out of the grendel with a 16" barrel .Your are going to lose at least 30fps per inch and I used 40
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Old 07-05-2013, 5:41 PM
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I had been doing some editting on my post but in short I get 2260fps out of the grendel with a 16" barrel .Your are going to lose at least 30fps per inch and I used 40
What ammo is that measured from and what barrel? You could have an issue or just a crappy barrel.

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  #17  
Old 07-05-2013, 5:50 PM
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Good luck centerfire folks, Xcountryrider was banned from the Hunting sub-forum.
How much do we have to pay to send him back to you?
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Old 07-05-2013, 5:59 PM
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Default lol - the fail is strong in this thread...

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Originally Posted by Xcountryrider View Post
If you take the figures and FPS numbers quoted by the 6.8SPC II handloaders the Grendel still beats it in the lower ranges as well as the upper ranges. The higher BC of the grendel makes the difference in terminal ballistics.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

140-grain (9.1 g) Berger VLD; 2,401 ft/s (732 m/s) - Silver State Armory (SSA) factory load, HITS score of 877 at the muzzle out of a 16 inch barrel
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.8_mm_...A0mm.29_barrel )

Like I said before, if you load to the old spec, you are right, they are almost the same. If you continue to ignore the new spec, regardless of the published data, you can still pretend you are right. Does your Grendle upper come with a membership to the flat earth society? Or are you just trolling?
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Old 07-05-2013, 6:17 PM
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Originally Posted by gun toting monkeyboy View Post
(sigh) Grendelites. They are as bad as the 10mm zealots when you mention 40 S&W. Okay, I am backing away from the thread s-l-o-w-l-y. I am not making any sudden moves. Please feel free to go rock quietly in the corner with your rifle. And just keep telling yourself that it is better.

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  #20  
Old 07-05-2013, 6:32 PM
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Does your Grendle upper come with a membership to the flat earth society?
It does.
It also comes with a remote control that turns the wind off, lowers all the grass and bushes so he can see game at 600yds, and finally, it comes with an invisibility cloak which makes him invisible to the game...
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Old 07-05-2013, 7:37 PM
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Quote:
What ammo is that measured from and what barrel? You could have an issue or just a crappy barrel.
Sorry no practical data , just doing some math . in general you will lose 30 to 50 feet per second per inch of barrel lost . I picked the middle and used 40fps less per inch . Thats 40fps times 8 inchs of barrel length lost = 320fps less with a 16" barrel . Now minus 320 from the Hornady 123gr sst 6.5 grendel @ 2580 = 2260fps . Thats how I came up with that . I've been out all day and a bit tired so I think it's right but I'm burnt out right now so who knows
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Old 07-05-2013, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Metal God View Post
Sorry no practical data , just doing some math . in general you will lose 30 to 50 feet per second per inch of barrel lost
In general, general rules are not accurate.

You have to have specific cartridge/bullet/load/barrel info to compare different barrel lengths.

For example, you lose less FPS per inch between 24" and 22" than you do between 18" and 16".
It's drastically different actually.
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Old 07-05-2013, 8:02 PM
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I dont dispute that but when you hack off 8 inches of any barrel your going to lose a bunch . I do know you will lose much more then the 150fps that was figured in the OP comparisons . I would add it was my understanding that we were talking in general term based on the OP comparisons to factory loads that we all know will be different with every rifle used .
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Old 07-05-2013, 8:14 PM
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..
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Old 07-05-2013, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that guy View Post
140-grain (9.1 g) Berger VLD; 2,401 ft/s (732 m/s) - Silver State Armory (SSA) factory load, HITS score of 877 at the muzzle out of a 16 inch barrel
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.8_mm_...A0mm.29_barrel )

Like I said before, if you load to the old spec, you are right, they are almost the same. If you continue to ignore the new spec, regardless of the published data, you can still pretend you are right. Does your Grendle upper come with a membership to the flat earth society? Or are you just trolling?
I know its pretty impressive and almost in the large game category which is considered to be a HITS score of 1000+. A great round to have in the 6.8SPC toolbox for sure but remember shooting from the 6.8SPC requires the PRI mags. Heres the problem for comparing to the Grendel. Theirs a factory supplier of 140gr Berger VLD's for the 6.8SPC but only home hand loads for the Grendel at this time for the 140gr VLD. So i don't have real data to do a head to head comparison like with the SST's.

There is a big difference in Ballistic Coefficients (BC's) between the two which could give somewhat similar results to the SST comparison. The Grendel 140gr Berger VLD has a whooping .612 BC while the 6.8 SPC Berger 140gr VLD has a someone more modest BC of .487 which is on the high end for the 6.8SPC. In other words the 6.8SPC 140gr Berger will come out of the barrel faster but it will quickly loose velocity and energy in comparison to the much higher BC of the Grendel.

The Grendel will take over at some point. How many yards out does that turn over take place? I don't know. I know out of a 24in barrel its coming out at 2315FPS with a HITS score of 930 but i don't know for a 16in barrel. I also know you can't just subtract so many FPS for each barrel inch. It no worky that way as a earlier poster tried to do. It needs to be measured with a chronometer. I have a box that will get loaded at some point this fall but not yet. I ordered Redding dies the first requirement to load the VLD's so we shall see.

6.5mm BC = 0.612
6.8mm BC = 0.487


Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-05-2013 at 9:10 PM..
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:03 PM
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i only know one thing about this debate, JP makes a 6.5 and not a 6.8

that's all i need to know, until john paul makes a wacky video explaining why.
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal God View Post
I dont dispute that but when you hack off 8 inches of any barrel your going to lose a bunch . I do know you will lose much more then the 150fps that was figured in the OP comparisons . I would add it was my understanding that we were talking in general term based on the OP comparisons to factory loads that we all know will be different with every rifle used .
The 16in muzzle velocity was derived from a averaged chronometer measurements not from dubious math. I also looked around and thats about average of what people are measuring. The high BC probably has something to do with it.
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:08 PM
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Another ballistic comparison this time 120gr to 120gr.

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Old 07-05-2013, 9:22 PM
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Another ballistic comparison this time 120gr to 120gr.
Something is wrong with your data if you have the same weight bullets starting at about the same speed in the 6.5grenade and the 6.8spc.
The grenade case head is larger so can not run at as high of a pressure level.
Also, the 6.5 bullet has less area to be pushed by the gas pressure.
Given the 5,000psi operating difference and the bullet base diameter differences, you should see a velocity spread of at least 125fps between those two cartridges with the same 120gr bullet when both cartridges are loaded to their full potentials.
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Something is wrong with your data if you have the same weight bullets starting at about the same speed in the 6.5grenade and the 6.8spc.
The grenade case head is larger so can not run at as high of a pressure level.
Also, the 6.5 bullet has less area to be pushed by the gas pressure.
Given the 5,000psi operating difference and the bullet base diameter differences, you should see a velocity spread of at least 125fps between those two cartridges with the same 120gr bullet when both cartridges are loaded to their full potentials.
I don't think Hornady is pushing the 6.8SPC as fast as it could? I know hand loaders are getting a couple hundred FPS more at the muzzle for the 6.8SPC. That factored in the Grendel still has a higher HITS score.
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:32 PM
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I don't think Hornady is pushing the 6.8SPC as fast as it could? I know hand loaders are getting a couple hundred FPS more at the muzzle for the 6.8SPC. That factored in the Grendel still has a higher HITS score.
I don't know what the hits score thing is, but the only thing that matters is energy-on-target to make the bullet perform...

Given the same weight, the higher the velocity on target, the higher the energy.
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
It does.
It also comes with a remote control that turns the wind off, lowers all the grass and bushes so he can see game at 600yds, and finally, it comes with an invisibility cloak which makes him invisible to the game...
Dibs for my Sig
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:39 PM
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I don't know what the hits score thing is, but the only thing that matters is energy-on-target to make the bullet perform...

Given the same weight, the higher the velocity on target, the higher the energy.
Look at my first post and follow the links to Hornadys site to read up. All things being equal a 6.5 gets a higher HITS score than a 6.8SPC because the 6.8SPC does not cause as much damage to a game because of its short stubby shape and lower BC compared to a 6.5mm bullet. That said HITS does not factor in the TYPE of bullet so when doing comparisons you should use the same type of bullet to take out that variable.

Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-05-2013 at 9:43 PM..
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:45 PM
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Look at my first post and follow the links to Hornadys site to read up. All things being equal a 6.5 gets a higher HITS score than a 6.8SPC because the 6.8SPC does not cause as much damage to a game because of its short stubby shape and lower BC compared to a 6.5mm bullet. That said HITS does not factor in the TYPE of bullet so when doing comparisons you should use the same type of bullet to take out that variable.
BC and bullet shape has nothing to do with terminal performance on target.
Arguing otherwise is silly.

BC and bullet shape have everything to do with the bullet performance BEFORE the bullet arrives at the target.
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:47 PM
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BC and bullet shape has nothing to do with terminal performance on target.
Arguing otherwise is silly.

BC and bullet shape have everything to do with the bullet performance BEFORE the bullet arrives at the target.
No not exactly bullet shape effects what happens when the bullet hits the target as well as what happens on the way to the target.
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:51 PM
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No not exactly bullet shape effects what happens when the bullet hits the target as well as what happens on the way to the target.
Bullet CONSTRUCTION and energy are what matters when the bullet arrives on target.
You can have a pointy match bullet punch a clean hole and not dump much energy into the target because it's not designed to expand and you can have a slow moving pistol bullet mushroom and put all of it's energy into the target and you would get better performance from the pistol bullet.

Way too many factors to worry about when talking generalities...
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:52 PM
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Damn it man! We could have got drunk, called a taxi and drop by Kest house with a mega phone.
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:55 PM
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I have both 6.5grenade and 6.8spc.
I like to take my 6.5grenade remote controller with me hunting, but I use 308 cartridge in my rifle because both the 6.5grenade and the 6.8spc are anemic hunting cartridges best left to arguing between internet commandos...
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Old 07-05-2013, 9:59 PM
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I have both 6.5grenade and 6.8spc.
I like to take my 6.5grenade remote controller with me hunting, but I use 308 cartridge in my rifle because both the 6.5grenade and the 6.8spc are anemic hunting cartridges best left to arguing between internet commandos...
I was just getting antsy waiting to see what he had to "refute" what you were saying haha
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:06 PM
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I have both 6.5grenade and 6.8spc.
I like to take my 6.5grenade remote controller with me hunting, but I use 308 cartridge in my rifle because both the 6.5grenade and the 6.8spc are anemic hunting cartridges best left to arguing between internet commandos...
The Grendel has a HITS score over 500 out past 400 yards out of a 16in barrel. The majority of us use a 18 or 20 barrel for hunting giveing a over 500 number closer to 600 yards. 500 is the number that Hornady gives for effectiveness on medium game. In other words the numbers show its not anemic at all but an effective deer and pig slayer. I like to keep the discussion facts focused because all the "experts" come in with all there experience and who knows who actually knows what they are talking about. Is it just your barrels you consider anemic? Which barrels do you sell are anemic and which aren't?

Grendel Vs 200lb Texas Boar. Taken at 200 yards with Hornady 123gr SST Hunter was Cameron Woodall

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