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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 06-03-2013, 9:11 PM
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Default LWRC SPR - Buyers remorse or expectations too high?

I picked up my Daniel Defense M4v5 and LWRC M6A2 SPR today. After some inspection and breaking them down, I have a few insights and questions.

First up is the DDM4v5. I've wanted a Daniel Defense AR ever since I saw their torture test video, incredible. One word comes to mind for this rifle..."Wow"! This factory built AR is incredibly impressive. The fit and finish is the best I've seen on any AR, DI or piston system. I've built my own with a BCM upper, own the LWRC M6A2-FDE, had the Colt 6920 and Bushmaster XM15, but this one beats them all in regards to fit and finish IMO. Absolutely no play between the upper and lower receiver. The BCG is GTG, no surprises there. I'm just blown away by the quality at this price point, great job DD. The few negatives I could come up with are the crap generic charging handle, no iron sights provided and the factory trigger feels terrible. Negatives only cause I've been spoiled by BCM, Troy and Geissele products. If you're thinking of getting your first AR or picking up another, this brand has just become my number one recommendation for a DI rifle. (Might change if I get to handle a Noveske one day )

Next up is the LWRC M6A2 SPR (all black version). Honestly, I'm a little disappointed. At this price point, I expect it to rival the Daniel Defense AR and beat it handily with fit and finish. Sadly, that's not the case. There is some play between the upper and lower which isn't uncommon in most ARs. I also have the non-SPR version which has some play, less due to the cerakote finish probably. The other disappointing thing I noticed was that the bolt assembly isn't coated in nickel boron like the carrier is. On my other LWRC, the entire BCG is coated so it's a bit shocking the more expensive version doesn't follow suit. Last qualm is about the crap factory trigger, but no surprise there. On the plus side for LWRC, it comes with flip up sights, a BCM mod3 charging handle, sexy spiral fluted barrel, sleek hand guard, and a b*tch'en piston system that's super easy to operate and clean.

Now I'm debating if I should give the SPR a chance or sell it. It was on my wishlist for a long time and I wanted to get it before year end due to pending legislation but now I'm not sure about it. I'm a fan of the piston system and believe LWRC is one of the top 3 in that market. However, should I keep it if I'm not loving it? Are my expectations too high cause all ARs will have some negatives?
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Old 06-03-2013, 9:21 PM
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Funny. I just caressed a DDM4v5 today at an LGS while doing a PPT. I was impressed. Stopped myself from impulse buying it b/c I already bought and am due to pick up my LaRue Tactical PredatAR from another LGS. But it got me thinking that the $360 difference between the two was significant enough to make me pause.

Haven't fondled the LWRC yet, so can't offer any insights there. But congrats on owning both (at the moment)......
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Old 06-03-2013, 9:25 PM
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I'd sell the LWRC and get another DD. But that's just me.
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Old 06-03-2013, 9:32 PM
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Yup, traded my SPR for a SCAR. Sold the SCAR...went back to a custom DI.
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:07 PM
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Sounds like with the LWRC what you're really paying for is the gas piston system. I've never played with one to notice the upper/lower slop but I've always liked the look of the FDE cerakote and spiral fluted barrel. Mil-spec triggers suck but that's an easy upgrade.
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:13 PM
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If fit and finish are of major concern then for a production gun I would have to agree DD is the best. No bias here either, I dont even own one.
Of course they run damn well too, and thats really what matters. Doesent hurt to be pretty too I suppose.
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:15 PM
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The upper and lower slop is a much talked about topic. It has been beaten to death over on the LWRC forum.

The rifle is built to run. I wouldn't suspect you having any trouble with it.. enjoy not having to clean it...

What don't you like about the trigger? You have the enhanced FCG in that rifle right? It's not a two stage but it's a decent trigger..

how do the two compare as far as weight?
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
I already bought and am due to pick up my LaRue Tactical PredatAR from another LGS
You bastard lol
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  #9  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:27 PM
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Magix, thanks for the prompt review!

Kind of funny, I've been looking at a DDm4v7 and the LWRC SPR. I am debating between the two at the moment.
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:43 PM
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I'll leave this right here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...light=LWRC+SPR

Those guys including myself have had the opposite effect with our SPR's.

You saw the DD torture test, did you ever see the LWRC torture test? maybe that will lighten you up.
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Old 06-03-2013, 11:01 PM
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Did you buy the rifles to shoot or to fondle?
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Old 06-03-2013, 11:17 PM
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If you bought the two as a show piece, put an accuwedge in the SPR as it is the better looking of the two mostly due to the spiral fluted barrel. If you bought them to actually shoot, well then, put a few rounds down range in each and keep whichever of the two you like shooting better.
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Old 06-03-2013, 11:30 PM
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Seems like everyone is getting an SPR these past few weeks. I feel like such a square.
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:43 AM
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I just picked up new SPR myself. I actually shot it today for the first time. My upper/lower has a bit of movement as well. I'm guessing they leave room for rifles that are coated. I was kinda shocked with the recoil. It had a good thump to it. Granted (due to ammo shortages I'm into my Zombie XM193 stash) I was shooting 556 nato which in all AR's kick more, but I still thought with the H2 buffer and mid-length system it would have been much less. The money is all in the upper for sure. That barrel, piston system, rail, and BCG are a work of art. My bolt is also not NiB coated. I was a bit bummed on that too. I did pony up and get it with the AAC flash hider and the Geiselle Trigger. No complaints about that upgrade. Shot 100 flawless rounds at an indoor range with a T1 LaRue combo which was sighted in on another rifle, but I slapped it on there and it was pretty close to dead on. I also put and AFG-1 almost to the end of the rail. I do the arm forward thumb over style and that piston blew a nice big black stain on my hand. I never felt it, but it was there. Going to have to figure out something for that issue. I'm guessing a TD stubby with no thumb over. I had remorse after I shot it today, but once I got home to clean it, it all faded away. So easy to clean.

Pic is target of first 30 rounds ever fired. 10 Yards indoor off hand standing up. First few shots are low to find hold over. Thats about 2 shots per second with an unsighted optic to that rifle. I'm happy to have bought it. It's like a 2-3" group not counting the rounds fired to find hold over. I picked up the pace shooting around 3 rounds per second and the groups stayed the same. Once my Glass shows up this wednesday I'll be pushing it out at the outdoor range.

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Old 06-04-2013, 2:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt-45 View Post

You saw the DD torture test, did you ever see the LWRC torture test? maybe that will lighten you up.
Is that a good commercial too?
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Old 06-04-2013, 2:08 AM
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Old 06-04-2013, 6:59 AM
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did u just shoot 20 times? is that a RAW? or are u out of state? better be careful posting vids like that
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Old 06-04-2013, 7:18 AM
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did u just shoot 20 times? is that a RAW? or are u out of state? better be careful posting vids like that

Out of State..Florida What is a RAW? Just curious
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Old 06-04-2013, 7:24 AM
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in the end, what really matters is that the bullet comes out and hits what you're aiming at when you pull the trigger

piston vs DI debate aside, you're just paying more for a name and some pretty features
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Old 06-04-2013, 8:02 AM
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I'd keep the LWRC. It's one of the best piston systems around. Go shoot it and. Bet you'll change your mind. Just my .02...
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Old 06-04-2013, 8:10 AM
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Originally Posted by FourLoko View Post
in the end, what really matters is that the bullet comes out and hits what you're aiming at when you pull the trigger

piston vs DI debate aside, you're just paying more for a name and some pretty features
This +1 ^^^^^

I laugh that people are selling LWRCI M6A2 uppers for $1600-1800 and you can get a PWS MK116 upper for $1289, or a Adams Arms setup for under 1k.

But yes, as long as what you have runs, that's what counts.
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Old 06-04-2013, 9:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ninety View Post
What don't you like about the trigger? You have the enhanced FCG in that rifle right? It's not a two stage but it's a decent trigger..

how do the two compare as far as weight?
Background, I'm coming from using the SSA and SSA-E triggers so that's my baseline right now. Both factory triggers are super heavy, gritty and the break just feels terrible. I'd probably put them close to 5+ lbs at the break but there's some slack before getting there that annoys the hell out of me. I knew the enhanced FCG would suck anyway because my original M6A2 came with it and I replaced it right away.

Comparing the two - DD vs LWRC trigger - I'd have to give the edge to DD. Another things that really shocked me! Their trigger is smoother and has a more consistent break IMO. The slop in the LWRC trigger just bothers me to no end. However, we all know the factory trigger is the first thing to go so it's not a big deal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by G60 View Post
Did you buy the rifles to shoot or to fondle?
Can't I do both? That's one reason why I sold my Colt 6920. Yes, it's the standard for mil spec ARs but the pony definitely leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to fit and finish. That's why the DD really impresses me. For relatively the same price point, you can get a workhorse AR that also looks great while doing it. Best of both worlds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyR6 View Post
I just picked up new SPR myself. I actually shot it today for the first time. My upper/lower has a bit of movement as well. I'm guessing they leave room for rifles that are coated. I was kinda shocked with the recoil. It had a good thump to it. Granted (due to ammo shortages I'm into my Zombie XM193 stash) I was shooting 556 nato which in all AR's kick more, but I still thought with the H2 buffer and mid-length system it would have been much less. The money is all in the upper for sure. That barrel, piston system, rail, and BCG are a work of art. My bolt is also not NiB coated. I was a bit bummed on that too. I did pony up and get it with the AAC flash hider and the Geiselle Trigger. No complaints about that upgrade. Shot 100 flawless rounds at an indoor range with a T1 LaRue combo which was sighted in on another rifle, but I slapped it on there and it was pretty close to dead on. I also put and AFG-1 almost to the end of the rail. I do the arm forward thumb over style and that piston blew a nice big black stain on my hand. I never felt it, but it was there. Going to have to figure out something for that issue. I'm guessing a TD stubby with no thumb over. I had remorse after I shot it today, but once I got home to clean it, it all faded away. So easy to clean..
Pistons definitely kick more than DI. I've done side-by-side comparisons of them at the range with 223 and 5.56 and it's noticeable even with a mid-length system. The cleaning is the perk for sure.

As for the gas exhaust that got released on your hand. That's an interesting insight. I was wondering how the SPR rail system would dissipate gas. My other M6A2 has the quad rail and gets a nice black stain on the inside, but not much gets to the hands. The SPR rail is lighter due to the larger openings on top near the gas port. Might need some rail covers if you're shooting thumb over style or change the grip.


I slept on it, but still debating if it's a keeper. Once the trigger, flash hider, stock and optics are added/replaced, it'll be a kick *** rifle. I can't believe I might have to accu-wedge an LWRC SPR. That's annoying to think about.
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Old 06-04-2013, 9:20 AM
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Didn't read any of the above. Simple answer, get a SCAR and done with it.

Pistons in the AR system are plain stupid.

That is all.
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Old 06-04-2013, 9:24 AM
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Didn't read any of the above. Simple answer, get a SCAR and done with it.

Pistons in the AR system are plain stupid.

That is all.
I can't, the SCAR doesn't fit my eye. I've contemplated it many times but it's just too bulky for my liking. Also, I prefer the abundant after market options for the AR platform.
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Old 06-04-2013, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magix View Post


I slept on it, but still debating if it's a keeper. Once the trigger, flash hider, stock and optics are added/replaced, it'll be a kick *** rifle. I can't believe I might have to accu-wedge an LWRC SPR. That's annoying to think about.
Why even bother buying a factory rifle when you're just going to change half the things anyways?
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Old 06-04-2013, 9:31 AM
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The play between the upper and lower is a none issue as far as function goes. I wouldn't put an accuwedge in any of my guns but YMMV.
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Old 06-04-2013, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
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I can't, the SCAR doesn't fit my eye. I've contemplated it many times but it's just too bulky for my liking. Also, I prefer the abundant after market options for the AR platform.
Ever shot a SCAR? I think if you do, you will be pleasantly surprised as to how it manages recoil.

I get you though, I love the AR because of the massive after market support.

I would have picked the DD over the LWRC... actually it's exactly what I did. For me the difference between a $1500 rifle and $2300 is a moot point, when considering optics, accessories, ammo, tac gear, class... I just want the tool that I know will work best for my application.

I still believe the Piston in an AR to be a gimmick to garner more sales. The design itself is incorrect. The op rod shouldn't be slapping the bolt and applying all the pressure to one corner which in effect transfers it to another corner. It's flawed. Given all this, if I HAD to get a Piston AR, it would be LWRC or LMT. If I really need precision, I can just set the gas off and run it like a bolt gun anyhow.

I know some folks will get upset about this because of their "investment" in their system, but you don't seem to be one of those folks. You are looking at this objectively.
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Old 06-04-2013, 9:59 AM
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Why even bother buying a factory rifle when you're just going to change half the things anyways?
It's just fun to modify and put your signature on the rifle. But to your point, I like the factory rifle because you get the matched upper and lower, it's convenient, and they typically do a good job. I've built my own, but there's always nice factory build on the wishlist...like a Noveske.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhena81 View Post
The play between the upper and lower is a none issue as far as function goes. I wouldn't put an accuwedge in any of my guns but YMMV.
In the end I probably won't, the play doesn't bother me too much since my other ARs have it also. I only noticed it more this time because of the comparison to the DD which is solid. haha

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Originally Posted by HK Dave View Post
Ever shot a SCAR? I think if you do, you will be pleasantly surprised as to how it manages recoil.

I get you though, I love the AR because of the massive after market support.
I've never had the opportunity to shoot the SCAR but it might change my mind if I did. I definitely see your point on the piston system in ARs, the platform wasn't designed around it.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:30 AM
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Is that a good commercial too?
If one would believe the DD torture test I don't see why the LWRC wouldn't be believable. Unless of course, there is a bias
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:19 AM
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There's a reason why they may have chosen to go without the Nickel Boron coating on the bolt itself.

By using the coating, you make the bolt harder than the barrel extension, which could potentially increase wear on the barrel extension.

As far as AR piston guns go, I'd only own an LWRC, HK, or LMT. As long as they accounted for carrier dive in the design of the rear of the bolt carrier, and the piston system works correctly, there should be no issues at all.

-Dave
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:26 AM
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If you wanted a precision piston AR you'd buy an HK. Everything else is a compromise. (It's in the motto).

-W
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:51 AM
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LWRC is no what is used to be and hasnt been for years. I personally would never buy one now.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:47 PM
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Sell the LWRC and build what you want. It's not hard to put together a good, accurate rifle these days with the huge aftermarket available to us.

LOL 2300$ retail for one of those? Hopefully you didn't pay that much otherwise you got bent hard.
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:26 PM
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You guys and your "impulse buys" are cracking me up. I sat on the sidelines for several years considering my AR purchase as the research is one of the fun parts IMO.

That said I was seriously considering an HK or the SPR for about a year, but in the end I went with the DD M4V5 LW. Thanks to https://www.gandrtactical.com I was able to build it up the way I wanted and still get aware fairly cheap.

The feel and finish of the DD was what sold me. Yes the SPR felt great, but not $1000 great.
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Old 06-04-2013, 3:00 PM
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Can't help ya, Magix...but as I'm picking up my 1st AR rifle in about 3 hours, a DD M4V7 LW, I'm happy to read your initial report on Daniel Defense. Seems to match the majority of opinions on the 'net. Thanks for the good word
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Old 06-04-2013, 3:59 PM
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Just bailed my M6A2 SPR today. I ended up swapping for an FDE one. The upper and lower receiver fit was much much tighter. They definitely built their uppers and lowers with cerakoting in mind.

And, yes the Bolt was black, no Nickel Boron coating. Perhaps LWRC is on the school of thought of Nickel Boron Bolt would cause more wear due to harder finish.

Also, they're no longer including Magpul ACS stocks anymore.

Otherwise, I'm very happy I was able to "upgrade" to an FDE Cerakote finish. Two tone actually looks really nice. I think I'll have the slide of my H&K USP 45 Cerakoted FDE to match.

Last edited by Edwood; 06-04-2013 at 7:35 PM..
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Old 06-04-2013, 5:22 PM
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I had both an LWRC M6A3 and an MR556 upper at one point. I shot them side by side- I kept the MR556 (upper) on my RAW lower.

The MR shot much smoother, and has better fit/finish, IMO. The only penalty is a bit more weight up front, though I weigh 250lbs- if I want to drop a pound, I'll take a dump.
There are places which will reprofile the MR barrel for you, but it's not that bad to me.
I also like how the gas system parts are interchangeable with the G36/SL8 rifles- or at least the piston is.

-Dave
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Old 06-04-2013, 5:31 PM
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Love my orignal DDM4 with serial number in the low 1000.

5000 rounds later zero issues.....

Wounder what their new stuff does.

I will never sell this one!
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Old 06-04-2013, 8:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HK Dave View Post
Ever shot a SCAR? I think if you do, you will be pleasantly surprised as to how it manages recoil.

I get you though, I love the AR because of the massive after market support.

I would have picked the DD over the LWRC... actually it's exactly what I did. For me the difference between a $1500 rifle and $2300 is a moot point, when considering optics, accessories, ammo, tac gear, class... I just want the tool that I know will work best for my application.

I still believe the Piston in an AR to be a gimmick to garner more sales. The design itself is incorrect. The op rod shouldn't be slapping the bolt and applying all the pressure to one corner which in effect transfers it to another corner. It's flawed. Given all this, if I HAD to get a Piston AR, it would be LWRC or LMT. If I really need precision, I can just set the gas off and run it like a bolt gun anyhow.

I know some folks will get upset about this because of their "investment" in their system, but you don't seem to be one of those folks. You are looking at this objectively.
piston systems if it isn't a HK 416 or mr556 its a second hand copy of the real thing. gimmicks I think not . design flawed are you serious? I've known peeps with well over 60,000 rounds through it and no failures of any parts on theirs except the barrels a little worn to be expected after that many rounds .
precision hell it's sub moa at that point the shooters the problem not the gun.
I guess on a non sub moa gun you need to turn off the gas to be precise? wow I would keep the dd if the lwrc cant hold sub moa. why but a semi auto then?
a bolt action you can buy for 1/2 of the price .
and DD takes the mr556 barrel blanks and machines them for H&K. so DD must do good work. as op say's the quality of the DD it better .
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  #40  
Old 06-04-2013, 8:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magix View Post
The other disappointing thing I noticed was that the bolt assembly isn't coated in nickel boron like the carrier is. On my other LWRC, the entire BCG is coated so it's a bit shocking the more expensive version doesn't follow suit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwood View Post
And, yes the Bolt was black, no Nickel Boron coating. Perhaps LWRC is on the school of thought of Nickel Boron Bolt would cause more wear due to harder finish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saki302 View Post
There's a reason why they may have chosen to go without the Nickel Boron coating on the bolt itself.
Your answer from Darren the VP.

Quote:
The ACB struggle continues. Note the ACB is not in any of our 2013 literature. Note that we shipped all 5.56 guns for the past year with Mil Spec bolts. Notice that there are less complaints on the forum about failures to extract since we did that.

The ACB has been a nightmare for us for the past 2 years. The design is sound, however APPARENTLY manufacturing it or measuring critical dimensions is not. At least for the 5.56 ACB. The 6.8 acb works beautifully with very little fall out. We have shipped over 10K guns in 6.8 since Jan with no issue.

To get a fully supported bolt face, and fully supported bolt lugs, and a larger extractor there are some pretty complex geometries involved. Geometries that we struggle with, and outside vendors struggle with. The geometries are all measured from a hypothetical datum down the center of the bolt making these geometries all but impossible to measure. It can be done on a CMM, but is so time consuming, it cant be done on a scale to check quality quickly. We have developed some go and no go guages for quality inspection, but can't check everything. Also the geometry of the extractor pocket, and the underside of the extractor body are co-related and complex. If either is off, its the ****pile.

Huge numbers are made, heat treated, shot peened and precision ground and the only true test to ensure it is right really comes down to test fire. That is unacceptable in a manufacturing setting. If the gun happened to run fine in the 15 round test fire, they are deemed good to go and shipped, yet 15 rounds is a small sample size and I believe some would slip through the cracks and get out there.

So now, we still struggle with this, but we make a lot of scrap, spend a lot of time measuring, and many still fall out and are scrapped. The ultimate solution is to buy a bigger more robust Swiss CNC. The Japanese machine we bought is not hacking it, and we need a couple of big citizens.

So here is the short of it. I know if I ship a gun with a Mil Spec bolt it will work perfectly if it passes test fire (standard ammo) because it is proven, has very simple geometries that are easy to check and measure at the front of the MFG process not the back end.

I also know that an ACB 100% CMM'ed to the design intent and tolerances will work perfectly. If we can't quickly measure them as the come in from plating other than with some simple go or no go gauges. If we rely on a 15 round test fire to weed out some that may be out of tolerance, then I am setting US and our customer up for failure, because surely a few will shoot 15 rounds, and may have failed a few rounds later.

Not wanting to throw the 5.56mm ACB out, (it does offer an additional margin of safety in a catastrophic pressure situation, and some redundancy in regards to springs) we have shipped with what we know we can effectively make and measure while we pursue the solution. It is worth pursuing, as the 6.8 ACB is a freaking champ. When we thought we had it licked, we shipped guns with ACB's. Last summer I believe was the last time we did that.

We still have been selling ACB's, at a great loss as they go through such and extensive process to be validated.

There it is. In a fat nutshell.

Why don't we Fail Zero the standard bolts? They are precision ground on dimension, and phosphated to the mil spec print. Plating adds tolerance. This tolerance was built into the ACB design to allow for the plating. The other reason is the last thing you want on an extractor is a slick self lubricating surface.
http://forum.lwrci.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=13782
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