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Rimfire Firearms .22, .17 and other Rimfire Handguns and Rifles

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  #41  
Old 06-04-2013, 9:30 AM
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You know if you look at the last few years of the monthly rimfire matches I was the winner on most of the iron rifle targets and allot of the scoped ones. Im not tooting my horn its just how it turned out. Most of the rifle targets were shot by me and 3-4 other shooters so there wasnt much in the way of competition for us. If you look at this year there is much more competition and guess what Im not the 25/50/100 yard iron winner every month and the shooting for me has been more fun than it has been in a while. Yes last months 50 yard target was hard but isnt that what its supposed to be. I won the 50 with a .22 kimber not a .177 so the target wasnt posted for a specific caliber firearm. I thought giving people an option to shoot as much or as little over the summer would take some pressure off people wallets. I know how much ammo is going for and I know its been months for me since I last found some reasonably priced ammo and Im sure most of you shooters are in the same boat. If you guys want to go back to monthly just PM me and I will break it back down to three months matches. We want this to be fun but at the same token if you are only shooting to get a prize well that kind of defeats the purpose of the matches dont it.
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  #42  
Old 06-04-2013, 9:42 AM
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Originally Posted by usmcchet9296 View Post
You know if you look at the last few years of the monthly rimfire matches I was the winner on most of the iron rifle targets and allot of the scoped ones. Im not tooting my horn its just how it turned out. Most of the rifle targets were shot by me and 3-4 other shooters so there wasnt much in the way of competition for us. If you look at this year there is much more competition and guess what Im not the 25/50/100 yard iron winner every month and the shooting for me has been more fun than it has been in a while. Yes last months 50 yard target was hard but isnt that what its supposed to be. I won the 50 with a .22 kimber not a .177 so the target wasnt posted for a specific caliber firearm. I thought giving people an option to shoot as much or as little over the summer would take some pressure off people wallets. I know how much ammo is going for and I know its been months for me since I last found some reasonably priced ammo and Im sure most of you shooters are in the same boat. If you guys want to go back to monthly just PM me and I will break it back down to three months matches. We want this to be fun but at the same token if you are only shooting to get a prize well that kind of defeats the purpose of the matches dont it.
I personally like the matches I have participated in this far. Frequency doesn't matter to me as I spend at least 48 hours at the range every month. Aside from just wanting to win a CalGuns t-shirt lol, I shoot to one day join the Olympics. Before I would shoot against myself, I had no bar of how good or bad, I just knew that I could shoot on average of 75% - 80% score total.

I was intimidated to try a real actual match because I was under the impressions that matches were full of people shooting in the 90% range, but it may seem I could probably partake in some local matches and hold my own.

Maybe next month, you guys can change the target to silhouette bulls to make it easier for the post iron shooters and give a really tough challenge for aperture iron shooters . Heck make the targets as hard as humanly possibly - I am down for that as everyone is in the same boat and has to that target as well!

On a side note, I practice even my shooting position when I work. Look at this awesome free standing shooting position ftw lol.
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  #43  
Old 06-04-2013, 10:08 AM
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I like how this match is run. I get out to a local range as much as possible but some months are busier than others. So I post as many or as few targets as I can. I shoot for fun and to challenge myself. It's relaxing. But it's also fun to compare myself to others of similar abilities. One of these days I'll win a t-shirt!

Thanks to the coordinators for putting these matches together.
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  #44  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:04 PM
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Attachment 238769

Attached or inserted is what I am describing. Most targets posted are Scenario A. Sure, I can't exactly aim for the bullseye like those with better sights - but I can extrapolate from the sides of the circle and the top some idea of where the bullseye is.

As Dattebayo correctly pointed out - the person who is consistent will likely win the match. That's the point of match.

Even I and others with crude sights like mine have a shot at it - if we do just that. Sure it's harder for us - but we do have a chance.

However, when Scenario B occurs - as was the case with the 50 yard last month and the 25 yard posted just this month - BAM! - you've just eliminated me from the match. All I can shoot reliably is the target period - I cannot aim within with any kind of consistency.

Remember:

The thread title is "Monthly Rimfire Match". That's the invitation..

Not, "Elite Equipment Rimfire Match", nor is it "Shoot Until You Win Rimfire Match".

But's that's essentially what the effect is when you suddenly shrink a target - AND allow folks to do a target session repeatedly beyond one day.

It's like me writing and administering an exam for Alegebra, but tossing in a few Geometry problems...and allowing a couple students to come back and take the test a second time after school when others have to go home.

It's like forcing the ASVAB test on students instead of running it as a voluntary test. The recruiters get screwed because the scores that get generated cannot be used to determine whether or not the students are capable of making a commitment. All they get is a score for capability - not committment...

So as I stated awhile back...

Either call it a Monthly Rimfire Match - and set it up exactly as that - a match with targets that all rimfire rifles and handguns can sight within...and let the winner be the most consistent irregardless of equipment.

Or call it something else that denotes a "sophistication" and run it as that.

=8-)

Last edited by mrrabbit; 01-18-2014 at 8:05 PM..
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  #45  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:10 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Attachment 238769

Attached or inserted is what I am describing. Most targets posted are Scenario A. Sure, I can't exactly aim for the bullseye like those with better sights - but I can extrapolate from the sides of the circle and the top some idea of where the bullseye is.

As Dattebayo correctly pointed out - the person who is consistent will likely win the match. That's the point of match.

Even I and others with crude sights like mine have a shot at it - if we do just that. Sure it's harder for us - but we do have a chance.

However, when Scenario B occurs - as was the case with the 50 yard last month and the 25 yard posted just this month - BAM! - you've just eliminated me from the match. All I can shoot reliably is the target period - I cannot aim within with any kind of consistency.

Remember:

The thread title is "Monthly Rimfire Match". That's the invitation..

Not, "Elite Equipment Rimfire Match", nor is it "Shoot Until You Win Rimfire Match".

But's that's essentially what the effect is when you suddenly shrink a target - AND allow folks to do a target session repeatedly beyond one day.

It's like me writing and administering an exam for Alegebra, but tossing in a few Geometry problems...and allowing a couple students to come back and take the test a second time after school when others have to go home.

It's like forcing the ASVAB test on students instead of running it as a voluntary test. The recruiters get screwed because the scores that get generated cannot be used to determine whether or not the students are capable of making a commitment. All they get is a score for capability - not committment...

So as I stated awhile back...

Either call it a Monthly Rimfire Match - and set it up exactly as that - a match with targets that all rimfire rifles and handguns can sight within...and let the winner be the most consistent irregardless of equipment.

Or call it something else that denotes a "sophistication" and run it as that.

=8-)
So stop using a center of mass hold, and use a 6 o'clock hold. I even found an image for you of an example of a 6 o'clock hold sight picture. You'll notice that the center of the target is not obstructed. Using a different sight picture so your target isn't obstructed has nothing to do with "elite" equipment, it's using a more appropriate sight picture for the equipment you have.
edit: Heck, here's another image for you

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-04-2013 at 12:16 PM..
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  #46  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:17 PM
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Well it appears with the post sights, you are doing just as much estimation as with aperture sights. For me anyways, even using the smallest aperture I could buy, the aperture is still significantly bigger than the target at 25 yards or a A23 target at 50 yards.

To put some perspective, this is how my sight picture looks.



Even though I see the black circle, it is very difficult to have it perfectly in the center. Even in the photo, if I pulled the trigger with the sight in its location, it'll hit right and low probably around the 7 or 6 ring.
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  #47  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:22 PM
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This picture was posted as an example what happens when you suddenly shrink the target...not of how I actually aim.

The target width wise gets completely obscured...so the aim is now reduced to simply aiming at the target instead of within for the bullseye area. Sure I could have lowered the sight in the picture so that people could point out:

"Well, just put the target in the middle of the sight and above 6-o'clock"...

But all I can do is consistently hit the target in general - not within for the bullseye.

As I already v e r y c a r e f u l l y p o i n t e d o u t consistency is still the endgame.

Nor am I once again asking for a 3 foot hole on the 18th green at the US Open.

=8-)
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  #48  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
This picture was posted as an example what happens when you suddenly shrink the target...not of how I actually aim.

The target width wise gets completely obscured...so the aim is now reduced to simply aiming at the target instead of within for the bullseye area. Sure I could have lowered the sight in the picture so that people could point out:

"Well, just put the target in the middle of the sight and above 6-o'clock"...

But all I can do is consistently hit the target in general - not within for the bullseye.

As I already v e r y c a r e f u l l y p o i n t e d o u t consistency is still the endgame.

Nor am I once again asking for a 3 foot hole on the 18th green at the US Open.

=8-)
Is it even possible to aim at the bull with these targets? I have 20-15 vision and I just make out the black to the 4 ring and try to center the black circle in the circle of my sight. I don't think I have ever actually aimed at the 10 ring in any of my target shooting. It is all get the circle in the center of the circle game for me. If I can make out the 10 ring and it fits in my circle aperture, it would be hard pressed for me to score anything lower than a 9.
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  #49  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
This picture was posted as an example what happens when you suddenly shrink the target...not of how I actually aim.

The target width wise gets completely obscured...so the aim is now reduced to simply aiming at the target instead of within for the bullseye area. Sure I could have lowered the sight in the picture so that people could point out:

"Well, just put the target in the middle of the sight and above 6-o'clock"...

But all I can do is consistently hit the target in general - not within for the bullseye.

As I already v e r y c a r e f u l l y p o i n t e d o u t consistency is still the endgame.

Nor am I once again asking for a 3 foot hole on the 18th green at the US Open.

=8-)
You don't understand the sight picture then.

If that entire target takes up the entire width of your front sight post, it would be pretty easy to center it regarding windage. If you constantly put the front sight post on the bottom of the target, then your elevation will be the same.

You're right, consistency is the end game, however you need to understand how to use different sight pictures. If your rifle is accurate, there is absolutely no reason you cannot hit the center of the bullseye every single time with a 6 o'clock hold, if you're keeping that sight picture consistent.

Aperture sights work the same way. You need to line up the rear sight, front sight, and target, while trying to consistently keep everything centered.

Same thing with a rifle scope!(well, you only have 2 planes to deal with... target and reticle, compared to 3 planes)

The short version: You're doing it wrong.
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  #50  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
You don't understand the sight picture then.

If that entire target takes up the entire width of your front sight post, it would be pretty easy to center it regarding windage. If you constantly put the front sight post on the bottom of the target, then your elevation will be the same.

You're right, consistency is the end game, however you need to understand how to use different sight pictures. If your rifle is accurate, there is absolutely no reason you cannot hit the center of the bullseye every single time with a 6 o'clock hold, if you're keeping that sight picture consistent.

Aperture sights work the same way. You need to line up the rear sight, front sight, and target, while trying to consistently keep everything centered.

Same thing with a rifle scope!(well, you only have 2 planes to deal with... target and reticle, compared to 3 planes)
Well the rear aperture sight is actually a little easier. When you look through it, you can actually look through it at any angle and it won't change point of impact. The rear aperture acts as your eye and the front post will be similar to targeting a shotgun.

This also helps people with vision problems as well as the small aperture helps focus on the target.
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  #51  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:30 PM
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This statement is normally at the end of each month's match announcement: Finally for any questions just drop me a PM and I'll get right back to you. Feel free to also PM me with feedback/complaints/errors I make, etc... These matches are based on “Gentlemen's/Ladie's Honor” so go shoot and have fun.

As I sense some dissatisfaction being voiced about the matches I would encourge anyone who has a problem with the way the match is run, recommendation about targets, how many times a target can be shot or any other way to improve the matches should PM the match co-ordinator with those comments. I have made a number of changes to targets, rules, etc.. based on feedback from shooters. We (the match coordinators) cannot possibly satisfy everyone's desires in these matches but we try to do the best that we can based on our limited knowledge and experience in doing this.

We happily accept any recommendations from all shooters, send us a target that you feel would be good for a particular use in the match. These matches have been going on for several years and have evolved over time from shooting one target to what it is today. There are only two of us running the matches (soon to be three) so our ideas are limited to two or three brains and our experience level.

The matches were intended to be fun, a little challenging and promote shooting as well as develop skills. None of us want these matches to degrade into a frustrating experience.

We try to improve the matches as time passes but please use the PM process to help us improve further. Complaining in this thread will not accomplish anything. Thanks.

Izzy43
Is there something in the above post that is not clear? I co-ordinate matches, I take input from shooters via PM on recommedations/comments/suggested improvements. I am not co-ordinating the current match but I guarantee those of you who are complaining in this thread when I am co-ordinating that I do not and will not scour this thread every day looking for complaints. I review the thread everyday for scored targets.

All have been invited to communicate via PM with the match co-ordinator and continuing to complain in this thread is rude and not productive. We do the best we can and are open to suggestions to improve the match for everyone. All complaints in this thread will be ignored by me and hopefully the other co-ordinators.

Izzy43
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  #52  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
Well it appears with the post sights, you are doing just as much estimation as with aperture sights. For me anyways, even using the smallest aperture I could buy, the aperture is still significantly bigger than the target at 25 yards or a A23 target at 50 yards.

To put some perspective, this is how my sight picture looks.



Even though I see the black circle, it is very difficult to have it perfectly in the center. Even in the photo, if I pulled the trigger with the sight in its location, it'll hit right and low probably around the 7 or 6 ring.
The AR-7 is peep rear and plastic sight front. Henry sent me several front sights for me to shave down from 2mm to .5mm. No need to spend money - no need to bust a budget. Something everyone else could do as well with budget rifles with "cheap" sights.

But now I can see just enough inside the usual 100 yard target to actually have a chance at the bullseye. Sure I didn't win last month - but for awhile there at least I was in the competition. I simply found the rough middle - raised my aim approx. 8 inches - and prayed for the best. Eley Target did the rest...

Similar for the 25 yard last month...

To be really honest - I don't like the peep or aperture front sight - I really do prefer the older setup shown above in an earlier post. But I have what I have.

=8-)
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  #53  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:34 PM
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mr Rabbit what do you ghink is elite equiqment? I use a rifle from the 40' many other people use 10/22 others marlins. if the equipment you are using isnt worjing for hou you can always switch to scoped instead of irons about a 30 $ fix. woukd you also like to limit the ammo we can use. you shoukd visit an appleseed project and watch what people can do wifh a cheao 10/22 with bulk ammo. instead of being upset that you are being intentionally forced oht of.a.match focus on your shooting. proper sight alligment and sight picture breath control trigger control. this is a voluntary match out on by volunteers theg are not out to screw someone.over we are all lookibg at the same target at the same distances. im gojng tk.use ny henry h001 with irons this month. stop being negative and enjoy the sport.
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  #54  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
Well the rear aperture sight is actually a little easier. When you look through it, you can actually look through it at any angle and it won't change point of impact. The rear aperture acts as your eye and the front post will be similar to targeting a shotgun.

This also helps people with vision problems as well as the small aperture helps focus on the target.
Well yes, but the concepts are still the same, and being aperture sights is certainly not "elite" equipment. They both require using an appropriate sight picture(which mrrabbit is apparently not using), and in this case it means not having the point of impact being directly in the middle of your front sight post so you can't see the target.
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  #55  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
The AR-7 is peep rear and plastic sight front. Henry sent me several front sights for me to shave down from 2mm to .5mm. No need to spend money - no need to bust a budget. Something everyone else could do as well with budget rifles with "cheap" sights.

But now I can see just enough inside the usual 100 yard target to actually have a chance at the bullseye. Sure I didn't win last month - but for awhile there at least I was in the competition. I simply found the rough middle - raised my aim approx. 8 inches - and prayed for the best. Eley Target did the rest...

Similar for the 25 yard last month...

To be really honest - I don't like the peep or aperture front sight - I really do prefer the older setup shown above in an earlier post. But I have what I have.

=8-)
I am luckily a newer shooter so training to learn different sights it was easy for me to adapt to. I could imagine if I was shooting post sights for a decade plus, it would be difficult for me to change.

Guns are like fishing lures, if you aren't confident with it, your better off with the setup that you are as it'll reap more fish and more bulls.

At the end of the day though, even if you were shooting a $3000 Anshultz in these tournaments, if you were a crap shooter, the results will not change.
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Last edited by Dattebayo; 06-04-2013 at 12:44 PM..
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  #56  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
Well yes, but the concepts are still the same, and being aperture sights is certainly not "elite" equipment. They both require using an appropriate sight picture(which mrrabbit is apparently not using), and in this case it means not having the point of impact being directly in the middle of your front sight post so you can't see the target.
Strawman...read my earlier post.

=8-)
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  #57  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mark View Post
mr Rabbit what do you ghink is elite equiqment? I use a rifle from the 40' many other people use 10/22 others marlins. if the equipment you are using isnt worjing for hou you can always switch to scoped instead of irons about a 30 $ fix. woukd you also like to limit the ammo we can use. you shoukd visit an appleseed project and watch what people can do wifh a cheao 10/22 with bulk ammo. instead of being upset that you are being intentionally forced oht of.a.match focus on your shooting. proper sight alligment and sight picture breath control trigger control. this is a voluntary match out on by volunteers theg are not out to screw someone.over we are all lookibg at the same target at the same distances. im gojng tk.use ny henry h001 with irons this month. stop being negative and enjoy the sport.
The title is "Monthly Rimfire Match". That's the invitation. In the past two months - targets were posted that throw a bias to those with better sights or equipment.

As I stated concretely - provide targets that ALL can see slightly inside sight picture wise - then of course irregardless of equipment - Mr. Consistent wins.

Also, strawman - read my earlier post.

=8-)
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  #58  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:46 PM
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Strawman...read my earlier post.

=8-)
Which earlier post? The one where you posted an image of the sight picture you're using so it's easy to point out how you can resolve the problem without spending a time? There's no "strawman" at all, you're using your front sight wrong for shooting small targets. If you think that you can't use a 6 o'clock hold with an AR-7, then it's because you don't understand the sight picture(which I already told you).

edit: This is the sight picture you should try using. Unless your sights lose zero after every shot, your point of impact will remain in the same place, as long as you put the front post in the same place.

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-04-2013 at 12:56 PM..
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  #59  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
The title is "Monthly Rimfire Match". That's the invitation. In the past two months - targets were posted that throw a bias to those with better sights or equipment.

Also, strawman - read my earlier post.

=8-)
No matter what type of targets, if you are using "better sights" there will always be a bias with the person with better equipment. If you make easier targets, the "better sights" people will just score better.

If anything Rabbit, it seems you actually want more classes to shoot. Possibly a post iron class and a aperture iron class? Or stock unmodified rifle class and modified rifle class? As I think it will accomplish what you are looking - which is what it seems is an equal playing ground.

To my knowledge, you don't even have to shoot 22LR rounds, as if you wanted, you could use any rimfire, which has better ballistics than the 22lr.

Making the target easier won't solve anything but just make this competition like a 3rd grade event where everyone gets 1st place blue ribbons.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:53 PM
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mr rabbit you keep saying the title is an invitation. if this is a party you dont want to attend then dont. if you think this is a.one sided match well good on you. the people putting this match on do it for fun if your not having fun dont play. if yoh can sef up a better match or.wanf to set.up a strict everyone has the same gun match or a post only no aperture sites contact the mods and try to set.it.up. ultimately yohr whinning about.how.everyone has better stuff is falling o deaf ears. if I go buy a hinda im not going to go to a track day and complain aboht the.corvettes are lapping me and say they shoukdnt be able to play. we get what we pay for and you shoukdnt have a hard time getting a vun fhat can compefe here for 150. your posts say youre shooting match ammo if you can afford fhat I dont know why.yoire complaingjn qbout being on a budget. if this match is not a fit for you start a new one.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
Which earlier post? The one where you posted an image of the sight picture you're using so it's easy to point out how you can resolve the problem without spending a time? There's no "strawman" at all, you're using your front sight wrong for shooting small targets. If you think that you can't use a 6 o'clock hold with an AR-7, then it's because you don't understand the sight picture(which I already told you).

edit: This is the sight picture you should try using. Unless your sights lose zero after every shot, your point of impact will remain in the same place, as long as you put the front post in the same place.
Post #47
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  #62  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Post #47
I just gave you a picture of how to use your front sight post to hit the center of the bullseye without obscuring the target. I even used the same smaller bullseye and the sight post from your own image. The only change required is to adjust your elevation.

If an AR-7 doesn't have elevation adjustment for it's sights, then you need to resolve that on your own. It has nothing to do with the thickness of the front sight post, or diameter of the target.

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-04-2013 at 1:03 PM..
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  #63  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:01 PM
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mr rabbit you keep saying the title is an invitation. if this is a party you dont want to attend then dont. if you think this is a.one sided match well good on you. the people putting this match on do it for fun if your not having fun dont play. if yoh can sef up a better match or.wanf to set.up a strict everyone has the same gun match or a post only no aperture sites contact the mods and try to set.it.up. ultimately yohr whinning about.how.everyone has better stuff is falling o deaf ears. if I go buy a hinda im not going to go to a track day and complain aboht the.corvettes are lapping me and say they shoukdnt be able to play. we get what we pay for and you shoukdnt have a hard time getting a vun fhat can compefe here for 150. your posts say youre shooting match ammo if you can afford fhat I dont know why.yoire complaingjn qbout being on a budget. if this match is not a fit for you start a new one.
Strawman...

Once again and I'll repeat, stick to targets that EVERYONE can see slightly within. From that point on - Mr. Consistency wins IRREGARDLESS OF EQUIPMENT.

The current 100 yard irons and 50 yard irons for example are perfectly fine.

=8-)
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
I just gave you a picture of how to use your front sight post to hit the center of the bullseye without obscuring the target. I even used the same smaller bullseye and the sight post from your own image. The only change required is to adjust your elevation.
Did you even read post #47?

=8-)
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Strawman...

Once again and I'll repeat, stick to targets that EVERYONE can see slightly within. From that point on - Mr. Consistency wins IRREGARDLESS OF EQUIPMENT.

The current 100 yard irons and 50 yard irons for example are perfectly fine.

=8-)
Your sight picture is not an equipment issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Did you even read post #47?

=8-)
Yes, I did. For some reason you don't understand how sights work. There is no requirement that your point of impact be dead center in the front sightpost to hit a fly at 200 yards. If your 6 o'clock hold is as consistent as your center of mass hold, your shots will consistently be in the same place, however you'll have the advantage of actually seeing the point of impact in your sight picture instead of covering it up.

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-04-2013 at 1:06 PM..
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:09 PM
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ok I vote we have an ar-7 only 5 yard humanoid target with a 10 inch bullseye. so we can all be whinners whoops I mean winners.
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
Your sight picture is not an equipment issue
From Post #47:

This picture was posted as an example what happens when you suddenly shrink the target...not of how I actually aim.

=8-)

Now assuming you can actually slow down and read carefully:

1. At 25 yards I am at 6-o'clock and a tad down from where I estimate the bullseye to be to compensate for the slight rise of the round before it begins its drop.

Worked out fine last month - simply because since the target was a hair wider than my sight - I could get a decent estimate of where the "bulleyes" would be. At least I had a shot at it. However rightfully so Mr. Consistency won...

2. At 50 yards I am at 6-o'clock and roughly on the bottom edge of what I estimate to be the bullseye area. Why? Because the normal 50 yard target is slightly wider than my sight - I can estimate. Worked out fine in March. But as expected, Mr. Consistency won...that's how it goes.

Last month - the target was so small in comparison - I may as well have shot at a tiny dot on a piece of paper. Forget about even estimating where the bullseye was.

3. At 100 yards I am at what I estimate to be the center horizontally - but what I estimate to be 7-8 inches above. I was able to estimate last month where the center was because I could just barely see the left and right edges of the target. Once again though, Mr. Consistency won the match.

Thoroughly kicked my butt actually...

=8-)
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  #68  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:19 PM
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ok I vote we have an ar-7 only 5 yard humanoid target with a 10 inch bullseye. so we can all be whinners whoops I mean winners.
Strawman...not at all the basis for my argument.

=8-)
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  #69  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
From Post #47:

This picture was posted as an example what happens when you suddenly shrink the target...not of how I actually aim.

=8-)

Now assuming you can actually slow down and read carefully:

1. At 25 yards I am at 6-o'clock and a tad down from where I estimate the bullseye to be to compensate for the slight rise of the round before it begins its drop.

Worked out fine last month - simply because since the target was a hair wider than my sight - I could get a decent estimate of where the "bulleyes" would be. At least I had a shot at it. However rightfully so Mr. Consistency won...

2. At 50 yards I am at 6-o'clock and roughly on the bottom edge of what I estimate to be the bullseye area. Why? Because the normal 50 yard target is slightly wider than my sight - I can estimate. Worked out fine in March. But as expected, Mr. Consistency won...that's how it goes.

Last month - the target was so small in comparison - I may as well have shot at a tiny dot on a piece of paper. Forget about even estimating where the bullseye was.

3. At 100 yards I am at what I estimate to be the center horizontally - but what I estimate to be 7-8 inches above. I was able to estimate last month where the center was because I could just barely see the left and right edges of the target. Once again though, Mr. Consistency won the match.

Thoroughly kicked my butt actually...

=8-)
You don't even need to be able to see the bullseye. Adjusting your elevation is mechanical. If you have your rifle shooting 1 MOA high over the front sight post, it will always be shooting 1 MOA over the front sight post at whatever range you made the adjustment for.

According to #2 here you're using a 6 o'clock hold for 50 yards, great, now work on your consistency. That's a problem with you, not the target, and not the rifle. It's not supposed to be easy.

If your hold is so far off at 100 yards, then adjust your elevation to compensate. Again, this is a mechanical adjustment. As I said previously, if your AR-7 has no elevation adjustment, then too bad. If you can adjust for elevation and you're choosing not to, that's entirely your problem. If you can adjust elevation but don't understand how, that's your problem too.

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-04-2013 at 1:25 PM..
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  #70  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:25 PM
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Strawman...not at all the basis for my argument.

=8-)
It may not be the basis of the argument, but the solution you are proposing is just that. A larger, easier to see, target.

There are many rimfire shooters that just have too old eyes for irons. As I said, I have 20-15 vision and still have a tough time making out Olympic standard targets. A lot of people that shoot rimfires use scopes because of that. If you can't see it, you can't hit it. Maybe that is the limitation of your physical ability to shoot. Olympic shooters seem to hit that x mark with great consistency even at 50 yards.

Now I am not saying we all need to be Olympic level shooters to compete, but it is nice to try to compete at their level to see how far off you are from the big leagues.
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:27 PM
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It may not be the basis of the argument, but the solution you are proposing is just that. A larger, easier to see, target.
I wouldn't even say he's proposing anything, more like trolling at this point since he refuses to understand anything about his sight picture, or sight adjustment while proclaiming that factory sights on $400-$500 rifles are "elite", then resorting to his nonsense trying to claim everything is a strawman(and I don't think he even understands what that means), all while crapping up the thread.
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:27 PM
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I dont know what strawman is and I dont care. stop using a sur ival rifle.not itended for match use and bit and moan about mr consistency using his elite rifle. no one hides what they shoot they are often proud of what they have. if YOU are shooting YOUR rifle to.its limits maybe its time for a new.rifle. yoh have to.pay to play. suck it.up and.start shooting.


stop your sniveling and trolling and just enjoy a day of.shooting. use these matches.to.compete against you and track your progress.

Last edited by mark; 06-04-2013 at 1:29 PM..
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:31 PM
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I dont know what strawman is and I dont care. stop using a sur ival rifle.not itended for match use and bit and moan about mr consistency using his elite rifle. no one hides what they shoot they are often proud of what they have. if YOU are shooting YOUR rifle to.its limits maybe its time for a new.rifle. yoh have to.pay to play. suck it.up and.start shooting.


stop your sniveling and trolling and just enjoy a day of.shooting. use these matches.to.compete against you and track your progress.
I am guessing his strawman refers to Wizard of Oz, as the Strawman lacks a brain.
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:33 PM
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I am guessing his strawman refers to Wizard of Oz, as the Strawman lacks a brain.
haha its funny because its true. Semper Fi cannon fauder all the way.
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:57 PM
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Strawman - arguing on a basis or position that the other person DID NOT take.

It's false representation and blatantly dishonest.

I've made it very clear - I'm not asking for a 3 foot hole on the green.

I've made it very clear - That picture is not how I aim - it shows what happens when you shrink a target such that it less in width than the front sight.

I've made it very clear - Mr. Consistency wins the matches irregardless of the quality of the hardware used with the targets used for irons. I have no problem with that at all - that's the point of the match.

What I do have a problem with is an OP who for some reason or another posts targets that are so small - I cannot even estimate where the bulleyes are because they were shrunk to a point where the entire target may as well be the bullseye. Folks with custom, fine, or quality made metal sights might have something to work with - but those with cheap plastic sights - you run the risk of eliminating them at the outset. It's arbitrarily changing the goalposts.

Why not simply post targets that when sighted are slightly wider than a 1.0mm front blade or dot sight - and having established that standard as a base for selecting targets - proceed to award Mr. Skill and Mr. Consistency the win?

You guys aren't afraid that lowly $200.00 Mr. Henry AR-7 might actually beat out elite $500.00 dollar Mr. CZ in 50 yard irons are you?

I certainly hope not, because I have a long ways to go in order to catch up to Mr. Consistency. Did I scare someone with the 25 yard irons last month?

=8-)
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Old 06-04-2013, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Strawman - arguing on a basis or position that the other person DID NOT take.

It's false representation and blatantly dishonest.

I've made it very clear - I'm not asking for a 3 foot hole on the green.

I've made it very clear - That picture is not how I aim - it shows what happens when you shrink a target such that it less in width than the front sight.

I've made it very clear - Mr. Consistency wins the matches irregardless of the quality of the hardware used with the targets used for irons. I have no problem with that at all - that's the point of the match.

What I do have a problem with is an OP who for some reason or another posts targets that are so small - I cannot even estimate where the bulleyes are because they were shrunk to a point where the entire target may as well be the bullseye. Folks with custom, fine, or quality made metal sights might have something to work with - but those with cheap plastic sights - you run the risk of eliminating them at the outset. It's arbitrarily changing the goalposts.

Why not simply post targets that when sighted are slightly wider than a 1.0mm front blade or dot sight - and having established that standard as a base for selecting targets - proceed to award Mr. Skill and Mr. Consistency the win?

You guys aren't afraid that lowly $200.00 Mr. Henry AR-7 might actually beat out elite $500.00 dollar Mr. CZ in 50 yard irons are you?

I certainly hope not, because I have a long ways to go in order to catch up to Mr. Consistency. Did I scare someone with the 25 yard irons last month?

=8-)
You say it's about consistency that you need to work on, then complain that the bullseyes are too small.

Which is it?

Why do you need to have the front sight post sitting on the bullseye? It's not as if the bullseyes are randomly placed in the circular targets.

Spend more time learning how to use your sights, and less time complaining about things that aren't really a problem.
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Old 06-04-2013, 2:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
You say it's about consistency that you need to work on, then complain that the bullseyes are too small.

Which is it?

Why do you need to have the front sight post sitting on the bullseye? It's not as if the bullseyes are randomly placed in the circular targets.

Spend more time learning how to use your sights, and less time complaining about things that aren't really a problem.
Once again, strawman...even after I clearly detailed for you specifically how I aim for 25, 50 and 100.

=8-)
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Old 06-04-2013, 2:05 PM
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Once again, strawman...even after I clearly detailed for you specifically how I aim for 25, 50 and 100.

=8-)
You clearly detailed that you don't know what a consistent sight picture is, how to use a 6 o'clock hold, and how to adjust your elevation.
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Old 06-04-2013, 2:06 PM
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so when I was in boot camp and shooting at 500 yards I should have asked.my pmi.to make my tagets a different size so.it would line up with my front sight tip? or do what I am supposed to do apply my fundamentals of shooting and make a clean shot.? shooting is not a world that lives in perfection it is a sport of knowledge and proper compensation for the issue at hand. no one honestly cares about you little 200$ ar-7 if you out shoot me great ill go practice some more and out shoot you wifh my 70 year old rifle. stop crying start shooting.
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Old 06-04-2013, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
It may not be the basis of the argument, but the solution you are proposing is just that. A larger, easier to see, target.

There are many rimfire shooters that just have too old eyes for irons. As I said, I have 20-15 vision and still have a tough time making out Olympic standard targets. A lot of people that shoot rimfires use scopes because of that. If you can't see it, you can't hit it. Maybe that is the limitation of your physical ability to shoot. Olympic shooters seem to hit that x mark with great consistency even at 50 yards.

Now I am not saying we all need to be Olympic level shooters to compete, but it is nice to try to compete at their level to see how far off you are from the big leagues.
Strawman - I'm asking the opposite - don't shrink. The normal 50 from March and the 100 and 25 from May for example are just right.

=8-)
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