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  #1  
Old 05-03-2013, 9:07 PM
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Default Dispute with gun broker seller over legality of DPMS Panther Arms

Although I admire the courage of this GB seller I attempted to educate this particular seller that the rifle is illegal in CA because it is banned by make(dpms) and model(panther arms). He replied that he has sold several to CA buyers and to some FFls. I have supported by argument based on the Cal guns flow chart, CA DOJ make and model ban list and the Kasler case, but he seems to disagree based on his recent revision of the item's description claiming that it is not an AR15, but an A-15.
The link that shows the rifle is this: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=339923343

My fellow cal gunners I would appreciate your input on this.
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  #2  
Old 05-04-2013, 12:42 AM
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If it truly is a DPMS A-15, it is legal, at least according to Shotgun News. http://www.shotgunnews.com/2011/11/2...egal-firearms/

I would want to see a an up close picture of the stamp on the receiver just to make sure the one being sold is indeed the legal A-15 and not the banned AR15. The one the seller is showing has the panther stamped on the receiver and the one Shotgun News discusses does not have a panther stamped on the receiver. The seller looks to be offering a DPMS AR-15 with a BB so it is essentially becomes the DPMS-A15. Those of us from this Socialist State of Kalifornia know this is not good enough for our overlords. It has to be the exact model identifiable by the correct stamp on the receiver. I will not risk my gun rights based on what an out of state seller says. He is not risking it all on whether or not it is an AR-15 modified to be an A-15 or an actual A-15.
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  #3  
Old 05-05-2013, 6:36 AM
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He would need to send us a picture of the model number. If it says Model: A-15, then you are wrong and he is correct. If it says "Panther" then it is an assault weapon. A DPMS AR15 is not banned either unless it is a DPMS AR15 Panther.

I have a feeling you are wrong. I think the logo says DPMS Panther Arms but then the model says Model: A-15. That makes it an off list lower.

Further, I believe that is a factory DPMS rifle, which makes you further incorrect as indeed, hundreds or even thousands of CA FLLs have sold those rifles including myself.

If we knew the item number we could look it up too. I bet it is RFTL-OC which makes it perfectly CA legal.

Be sure to apologize if he is correct.
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 05-05-2013 at 6:41 AM..
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Old 05-05-2013, 7:13 AM
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Kimber8400,
Were you going to BUY this rifle? Or did you just ASSUME it was your responsibility to EDUCATE said seller?
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  #5  
Old 05-05-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
He would need to send us a picture of the model number. If it says Model: A-15, then you are wrong and he is correct. If it says "Panther" then it is an assault weapon. A DPMS AR15 is not banned either unless it is a DPMS AR15 Panther.

I have a feeling you are wrong. I think the logo says DPMS Panther Arms but then the model says Model: A-15. That makes it an off list lower.

Further, I believe that is a factory DPMS rifle, which makes you further incorrect as indeed, hundreds or even thousands of CA FLLs have sold those rifles including myself.

If we knew the item number we could look it up too. I bet it is RFTL-OC which makes it perfectly CA legal.

Be sure to apologize if he is correct.
At the time when I brought it to his attention, the description of the item did not state A-15, on the contrary it stated AR15 and the stamp on the lower is "panther arms". Therefore these 2 facts coupled together make a safe inference that the rifle is illegal.
Then he went ahead and changed the item description to "A-15" which is not clear to see on the lower receiver or even on the box.
So by looking at this objectively and assuming that this rifle is "A-15" legal, the seller should have been more detailed in the description especially when he is advertising to state of CA where some models of this make is banned.

Last edited by KIMBER8400; 05-05-2013 at 10:52 AM.. Reason: make/model
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  #6  
Old 05-05-2013, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synweap223 View Post
Kimber8400,
Were you going to BUY this rifle? Or did you just ASSUME it was your responsibility to EDUCATE said seller?
I was going to put a bit on it, but once I saw the logo on the lower "panther arms" hesitated to do so.
And as far as assuming responsibility to educate, I call it as I see it; had the seller fulfilled his duty to completely describe the said product we would not have had the conversation.
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:50 AM
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its best not to butt in if they are selling the animal lower you did your duty to warn them walk away
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:57 AM
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A15 GTG
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  #9  
Old 05-05-2013, 11:02 AM
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its best not to butt in if they are selling the animal lower you did your duty to warn them walk away
exactly how I felt.
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  #10  
Old 05-05-2013, 1:39 PM
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This quote relates to the issue at hand:

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
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  #11  
Old 05-05-2013, 2:24 PM
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Agree,
However, if it's not apparent that the student is a "pig" then I guess you take your chances. The issue that I have with this type of business is that (assuming the rifle is banned) the state of CA is not gonna go after the out of state seller, but it will most definitely go after the purchaser.
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  #12  
Old 05-06-2013, 7:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIMBER8400 View Post
At the time when I brought it to his attention, the description of the item did not state A-15, on the contrary it stated AR15 and the stamp on the lower is "panther arms". Therefore these 2 facts coupled together make a safe inference that the rifle is illegal.
This is incorrect. Unless the model is Panther, it would not be illegal. It can say Panther Arms all it wants, that doesn't mean that is the model number. Unless the model is Panther, it is not illegal. AR15 has nothing to do with it.

Further, who makes CA compliant, Bullet Button rifles that are not CA legal? Factory DPMS Bullet Button rifles are legal in CA.

Glad you are the GunBroker police. What is your Gunbroker handle again?

And hey, it is your time. If you want to crusade on GunBroker, go for it. I don't care. However, if you want to make hit peice threads, I have the time to counter you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KIMBER8400 View Post
Agree,
However, if it's not apparent that the student is a "pig" then I guess you take your chances. The issue that I have with this type of business is that (assuming the rifle is banned) the state of CA is not gonna go after the out of state seller, but it will most definitely go after the purchaser.
I am pretty sure the CA transfer dealer would probably be the best person to make sure that all laws are being followed and they would actually be the ones that would take the most legal liability.

Really, you are just the Gunbroker item description police. The gun was legal, you just didn't realize it.
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  #13  
Old 05-06-2013, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
This is incorrect. Unless the model is Panther, it would not be illegal. It can say Panther Arms all it wants, that doesn't mean that is the model number. Unless the model is Panther, it is not illegal. AR15 has nothing to do with it.

Further, who makes CA compliant, Bullet Button rifles that are not CA legal? Factory DPMS Bullet Button rifles are legal in CA.

Glad you are the GunBroker police. What is your Gunbroker handle again?

And hey, it is your time. If you want to crusade on GunBroker, go for it. I don't care. However, if you want to make hit peice threads, I have the time to counter you.

I am pretty sure the CA transfer dealer would probably be the best person to make sure that all laws are being followed and they would actually be the ones that would take the most legal liability.

Really, you are just the Gunbroker item description police. The gun was legal, you just didn't realize it.
If the lower receiver has a stamp that states "panther arms" wouldn't it be safe to infer that the model is panther arms? After all the lower receiver is the firearms is it not?

It is true that factory dpms with BB is legal in CA, but those rifles have no "panther arms" stamp on it, the lower receiver on those legal rifles just states DPMS without "panther arms."

As far as being the police, I am far from it. If you care to read the contents of my replies, I wanted to buy the rifle.
And my intention of making this thread was to receive objective and impartial feed back from the CA FFL community and I want to thank for all your inputs, including yours tenpercent, however your arguments are kind of biased and subjective. Put yourself in the shoes of a reasonable CA firearm purchaser and argue objectively instead of from the point of view of the FFL.

When I purchase goods especially when the transaction is conducted via internet, I expect the seller to fully describe the product. The seller in question failed to do so as it is evidenced by his actions after I brought up the issue. He amended the description which proves that he felt the description did not fully disclose the product.
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  #14  
Old 05-06-2013, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIMBER8400 View Post
If the lower receiver has a stamp that states "panther arms" wouldn't it be safe to infer that the model is panther arms? After all the lower receiver is the firearms is it not?
No. When it says "Model:A-15", then it is not a Panther modeled lower. It is a model A-15.

If it didn't say "Model: A-15", then I might find it a little more gray area with the words Panther Arms on it. However, it is clearly an A-15 model made by DPMS Panther Arms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KIMBER8400 View Post
It is true that factory dpms with BB is legal in CA, but those rifles have no "panther arms" stamp on it, the lower receiver on those legal rifles just states DPMS without "panther arms."
Double check on that. It might not be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KIMBER8400 View Post
As far as being the police, I am far from it. If you care to read the contents of my replies, I wanted to buy the rifle.
And my intention of making this thread was to receive objective and impartial feed back from the CA FFL community and I want to thank for all your inputs, including yours tenpercent, however your arguments are kind of biased and subjective. Put yourself in the shoes of a reasonable CA firearm purchaser and argue objectively instead of from the point of view of the FFL.
What is your GunBroker ID again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KIMBER8400 View Post
When I purchase goods especially when the transaction is conducted via internet, I expect the seller to fully describe the product. The seller in question failed to do so as it is evidenced by his actions after I brought up the issue. He amended the description which proves that he felt the description did not fully disclose the product.
He only did it because of your Gunbroker ID handle and your harassing him about it. If I were you and I ran into an auction that didn't describe it that well, I would move on. Instead you made a thread about it.

What is your GunBroker handle again?
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  #15  
Old 05-06-2013, 1:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
No. When it says "Model:A-15", then it is not a Panther modeled lower. It is a model A-15.

If it didn't say "Model: A-15", then I might find it a little more gray area with the words Panther Arms on it. However, it is clearly an A-15 model made by DPMS Panther Arms.

Double check on that. It might not be true.

What is your GunBroker ID again?



He only did it because of your Gunbroker ID handle and your harassing him about it. If I were you and I ran into an auction that didn't describe it that well, I would move on. Instead you made a thread about it.

What is your GunBroker handle again?
Are you the FFL that the seller referred, who bought these guns? You are obviously adamantly overprotective of this guy.

This is the actual picture advertized and the only one that somewhat shows the relevant part of the receiver. I can see that is says panther arms with the logo of the panther. Now can you see that is says A-15? You either assumed that is says A-15 or the seller sent you some better looking pictures that says A-15. If you do have these images, why don't you just post them and stop playing Sherlock here.



And my gun broker ID has nothing to do with this, stick to the topic. Reminder the subject of the thread is whether or not the said rifle is legal?
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Old 05-06-2013, 1:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
He only did it because of your Gunbroker ID handle and your harassing him about it. If I were you and I ran into an auction that didn't describe it that well, I would move on. Instead you made a thread about it.
harassing him about it?
Since when an argument based on legitimate supportive facts is harassment? Boy, he really did cry on your shoulder didn't he?
I guess I hurt his feelings because my email was kind of confrontational.
I made a thread about it because I wanted to know whether or not it was legal.
And the only reason I have posted the link to his gun broker item is because that was the disputed item. And he should not have a problem with this because he is advertizing the gun to CA buyers, so I actually broadened his potential buyers.
The next post that you make support it with facts and stick to the subject at hand.
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Old 05-06-2013, 2:16 PM
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The gun in the pic is CA legal. I have bought this same gun in and sold lots of them. I have also had dealing with this seller and he is a stand up guy and knows his stuff. His ADD / user name also states he is a FFL. So with that said If he is saying it's CA legal it is! As he as a FFL would be in DEEP do do if he shipped a AW into CA.

I am sorry that you though he should have posted more info. But the long and short of it is he did post the most important info "CA compliant" So cut the guy some slack!!!!!!!! it's post and BS like this that makes most dealers take the stand that they wont ship ANYTHING to CA.
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Old 05-06-2013, 2:29 PM
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The gun in the pic is CA legal. I have bought this same gun in and sold lots of them. I have also had dealing with this seller and he is a stand up guy and knows his stuff. His ADD / user name also states he is a FFL. So with that said If he is saying it's CA legal it is! As he as a FFL would be in DEEP do do if he shipped a AW into CA.

I am sorry that you though he should have posted more info. But the long and short of it is he did post the most important info "CA compliant" So cut the guy some slack!!!!!!!! it's post and BS like this that makes most dealers take the stand that they wont ship ANYTHING to CA.
Just because one is an FFL (out of state FFL) doesn't mean that anything he says I'm going to take as a fact.
No it's post like this that hold the FFLs to a high standard and compel them what they are supposed to do in the first place, to describe the item properly. Since this is a disputed item, the item was not described properly he should have provided more detailed information on its legality. Just a statement form an out of state FFL saying it's CA compliant doesn't make it CA compliant.
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Old 05-06-2013, 2:30 PM
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The ban list says DPMS: Panther (all). So, it is quite likely that it would be considered to be banned if it has the word "Panther" on it.

It is a valid concern and while some FFLs might transfer firearms with the word "Panther" on it, it does not make it legal and it is begging for a problem.

A non-CA FFL is not going to always know the law and there are CA FFLs who play fast and loose with the law, so if you want to bet that because the person is a FFL and because he says it is CA legal and not check it out further, then go right ahead, but that is a bit of a gamble.

I received a lower from a big company which was banned by name. Fortunately it was only a lower, so it was not a problem, other than having to ship it back, but people make mistakes and some just don't care or think that the law is something other than what it is.
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Old 05-06-2013, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by KIMBER8400 View Post
And my gun broker ID has nothing to do with this, stick to the topic. Reminder the subject of the thread is whether or not the said rifle is legal?
It doesn't?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...x?User=2437193

Interesting GunBroker Handle.

The gun is legal and always has been. Move along if you are not satisfied with the seller's description and send him a note that you won't bid on his items because he isn't descriptive enough.

Anything more and you are being the CACOMPLIANT police.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The ban list says DPMS: Panther (all). So, it is quite likely that it would be considered to be banned if it has the word "Panther" on it.
FUD. Otherwise anything with DPMS would be banned. It must be the specific make and model number. A DPMS must have the model Panther in it. These rifles clearly state "Model: A-15". They are made by DPMS Panther Arms. So they are not Panther Models. If anything they might be Panther Arms Models, but that is not Panther (all). That would be Panther Arms (all).
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Old 05-06-2013, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
I
FUD. Otherwise anything with DPMS would be banned. It must be the specific make and model number. A DPMS must have the model Panther in it. These rifles clearly state "Model: A-15". They are made by DPMS Panther Arms. So they are not Panther Models. If anything they might be Panther Arms Models, but that is not Panther (all). That would be Panther Arms (all).
Incorrect. Why would "DPMS: Panther (all) mean that ALL DPMS firearms are banned even it does not have Panther on it?

DPMS is the manufacturer. Panther Arms is basically a model of DPMS.

Panther (all) would include Panther Arms (all).
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Old 05-06-2013, 5:44 PM
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It doesn't?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...x?User=2437193

Interesting GunBroker Handle.

The gun is legal and always has been. Move along if you are not satisfied with the seller's description and send him a note that you won't bid on his items because he isn't descriptive enough.

Anything more and you are being the CACOMPLIANT police.



FUD. Otherwise anything with DPMS would be banned. It must be the specific make and model number. A DPMS must have the model Panther in it. These rifles clearly state "Model: A-15". They are made by DPMS Panther Arms. So they are not Panther Models. If anything they might be Panther Arms Models, but that is not Panther (all). That would be Panther Arms (all).
First, you argue like a liberal taking things out of context and deviating from the issue at hand - my GB ID, CACOMPLIANT means that all of the products that I sell are just that CACOMPLIANT.
Second, this is a forum where legitimate concerns about topic such as this can be raised, if you have any concerns address your complains with the mods.
The gun has been legal and always has been? That is your opinion on the topic? Where does it clearly state MODEL A-15? And they are not made by DPMS Panther Arms, they are made by DPMS and given a model as Panther Arms.
I don't think you comprehend the law very well. It bans make DPMS and model Panther (all), which means all Panther models, which means all lower receivers that has panther arms stamped on them, which means this very rifle.

Now pay close attention to this quote, one wise man in another forum said, and I couldn't agree more, "opinion untempered by fact is ignorance."

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thanks for advertising my GB ID, make sure you look at my merchandize.

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Old 05-07-2013, 6:51 AM
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Epic fail for you two. Panther Arms is not a model. It is a manufacturer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DPMS_Panther_Arms

So DPMS Panther Arms is a make of firearm. DPMS Panther Arms Panther would be the make and model that is banned (but even that is debatable since the sole company DPMS is banned, not DPMS Panther Arms).

So a DPMS Panther Arms A-15 is not listed in any way, shape, or form.

Kind of disparaging neither of you knew this, but I guess that is why you are here, to get educated.

So when a guy named CACOMPLIANT starts messaging people that they are selling illegal firearms that are actually distributed by the manufacturer as a CA legal model, that seems pretty much exactly like someone being the CACOMPLIANT police.

It is cool that you do that. I believe in liberty and that you can do that. Let's just be clear on what you are up to.
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Old 05-07-2013, 7:51 AM
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Epic fail for you two. Panther Arms is not a model. It is a manufacturer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DPMS_Panther_Arms

So DPMS Panther Arms is a make of firearm. DPMS Panther Arms Panther would be the make and model that is banned (but even that is debatable since the sole company DPMS is banned, not DPMS Panther Arms).

So a DPMS Panther Arms A-15 is not listed in any way, shape, or form.

Kind of disparaging neither of you knew this, but I guess that is why you are here, to get educated.

So when a guy named CACOMPLIANT starts messaging people that they are selling illegal firearms that are actually distributed by the manufacturer as a CA legal model, that seems pretty much exactly like someone being the CACOMPLIANT police.

It is cool that you do that. I believe in liberty and that you can do that. Let's just be clear on what you are up to.
I want to commend you on your progress, for citing sources to support your argument.
Now as my cousin Vinnie says your argument will not hold water because Wikipedia sources are neither binding nor persuasive on the court. Step up your research skills.
The law is very clear on this issue and no matter how the DPMS twists their company name to get around it, the fact still is that the lower receiver has the panther arms stamp - banned.
If one is paranoid about what they do of course they are going to think that the police is after them when another seller in GB with CACOMPLIANT ID as a courtesy emails the cal guns flow chart and the doj ban list.
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Old 05-07-2013, 8:02 AM
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http://www.impactguns.com/dpms-panth...451004790.aspx

This link shows CACOMPLIANT DPMS.
IF the make of the gun is DPMS panther arms why it only says DPMS on this model? U guessed it right to make it CACOMPLIANT.
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  #26  
Old 05-07-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Epic fail for you two. Panther Arms is not a model. It is a manufacturer.
Really? I searched the BATF FFL database and I can't find a Panther Arms. I can find a DPMS, which appears to be owned by Remington.

The DPMS web page says DPMS Panther Arms, not just Panther Arms. It appears to be a model line for DPMS.

See:

http://www.dpmsinc.com

There is also a picture of a rifle which has on it DPMS Panther Arms (tm). Typically, a company name is not a trademark.

Here is the trademark:

http://trademarks.justia.com/857/62/...-85762282.html

DPMS sells firearms without the name Panther Arms. Can you find a firearm which does not have DPMS on it and which it is marked "Panther Arms"?

Here is the history of DPMS from DPMS:

http://www.dpmsinc.com/Company-History_ep_48-1.html

No mention of Panther Arms.

So, it seems that you are the one who has failed unless you can show a manufacturer called "Panther Arms", other than DPMS.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:00 PM
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The law is very clear on this issue and no matter how the DPMS twists their company name to get around it, the fact still is that the lower receiver has the panther arms stamp - banned.
Really, which law is that? Can you cite the Penal Code?

Of course you can't. What is clear about this is the Harrott decision.

Quote:
The fact these amendments were enacted together supports the conclusion that subdivision (e) of section 12276 is not self-executing, but, rather, that the specific make and model of an assault weapon must first appear on the list the Attorney General, pursuant to section 12276.5, subdivision (h), files with the Secretary of State for publication in the California Code of Regulations.
No where in the Kasler List will you see the words "Panther Arms". What is banned is the DPMS Panther (all). Technically, if the firearm doesn't have "Panther (all)" on it, it is further not banned since it would need "Panther (all)" and not all models of "Panther".

So when a rifle says, DPMS Panther Arms Mod: A-15, that is no way an assault weapon.

That is the beauty of the Kasler List. You are either on it or you are not. As much as some people on the Internet like to spread FUD, it simply isn't true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Really? I searched the BATF FFL database and I can't find a Panther Arms. I can find a DPMS, which appears to be owned by Remington.

The DPMS web page says DPMS Panther Arms, not just Panther Arms. It appears to be a model line for DPMS.

See:

http://www.dpmsinc.com

There is also a picture of a rifle which has on it DPMS Panther Arms (tm). Typically, a company name is not a trademark.

Here is the trademark:

http://trademarks.justia.com/857/62/...-85762282.html

DPMS sells firearms without the name Panther Arms. Can you find a firearm which does not have DPMS on it and which it is marked "Panther Arms"?

Here is the history of DPMS from DPMS:

http://www.dpmsinc.com/Company-History_ep_48-1.html

No mention of Panther Arms.

So, it seems that you are the one who has failed unless you can show a manufacturer called "Panther Arms", other than DPMS.
You still don't get it. The name of the company is DPMS Panther Arms. Look at the side of the receiver.



DPMS Panther Arms
Mod: A-15

And finally, if you don't believe Wikipedia, no biggie, a simple search of the Minnesota Secretary of State website shows a incorporation filing for DPMS/Panther Arms.

http://mblsportal.sos.state.mn.us/Bu...6-001ec94ffe7f

I am sorry you guys can't do a little extrapoloation and figure out that it was originally DPMS Panther Arms until the Cerberus Capital Management bought it and combined it with the Freedom Group. Go through the Minnesota Secretary of State's website and the evidence is clearly there.

My favorite is that Manufacturers are rarely trademarked. LOL!!!

http://www.trademarks411.com/marks/8...s-panther-arms

Guess who owns the TM for DPMS Panther Arms? RA Brands LLC. Guess what else they own?

http://www.trademarks411.com/tradema...rands%2C+L.L.C.

Remington

Remington doesn't make guns, that is the model number. LOL!
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  #28  
Old 05-07-2013, 12:14 PM
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I bought this rifle as a PPT at Ammo Bros. a few months ago. I sold it shortly afterwards. The rifle said DMPS Panther Arms as did all of the literature that came with it and the box (including the Panther Arms supplemental handout that showed the user how to use the CA bullet button).

I have no idea why OP would ask the GB seller a question, not like his answer, and then whine about it here. No wonder CA gets such a crap reputation on national sites.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:41 PM
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op is not whining about it, op has a legitimate concern because the said rifle is on the ban list.
Read the thread thoroughly then make ur conclusions. You doing a ppt then selling it don't make it legal. If out of state FFLs cannot handle a simple question, then they shouldn't be in the business.
The seller replied that since he sold several of these to ca that makes it legal. The thread was intended to clarify the issue and so far have not seen any good faith arguments for the proponents of the rifle. U don't have to post if u don't like the thread.
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Old 05-07-2013, 1:02 PM
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Originally Posted by KIMBER8400 View Post
The seller replied that since he sold several of these to ca that makes it legal. The thread was intended to clarify the issue and so far have not seen any good faith arguments for the proponents of the rifle. U don't have to post if u don't like the thread.
This issue has been settled. You just don't like the answer.

It either has DPMS Panther Arms Mod:A-15 or it has a simple DPMS Mod:A-15. Either one is legal.
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  #31  
Old 05-07-2013, 1:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
This issue has been settled. You just don't like the answer.

It either has DPMS Panther Arms Mod:A-15 or it has a simple DPMS Mod:A-15. Either one is legal.
Look man this ain't personnel to me.
For the millionth time the purpose of the thread is to find out whether it was legal. Objectively! I will respond to ur previous post.
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  #32  
Old 05-07-2013, 1:23 PM
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Originally Posted by KIMBER8400 View Post
Look man this ain't personnel to me.
For the millionth time the purpose of the thread is to find out whether it was legal. Objectively! I will respond to ur previous post.
It is legal. I done pointed it out already.

So the question is, was that the real purpose of this thread?

Don't respond. I am trolling...for a response.
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  #33  
Old 05-07-2013, 1:32 PM
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You still don't get it. The name of the company is DPMS Panther Arms. Look at the side of the receiver.
Actually, you don't get it. Show me a FFL with the name "Panther Arms". Manufacturers are required to be licensed, right?

DPMS is the name of the company, as your links actually shows.

Interesting link. Who is the nameholder? What is the business type?

So tell me what exactly you think that proves? What it actually shows is that DPMS/Panther Arm is NOT the actual name of the company.

Business Type: Assumed Name

Nameholder: DPMS/Firearms LLC

So you are trying to claim that the real name is DPMS Panther Arms? But wait, the links you provided show that is NOT the case and that the name is DPMS without Panther Arms.

Quote:
I am sorry you guys can't do a little extrapoloation and figure out that it was originally DPMS Panther Arms until the Cerberus Capital Management bought it and combined it with the Freedom Group. Go through the Minnesota Secretary of State's website and the evidence is clearly there.

My favorite is that Manufacturers are rarely trademarked. LOL!!!
The NAME of the MANUFACTURER is not trademarked because it is their name and it does not need to be trademarked.

Quote:
http://www.trademarks411.com/marks/8...s-panther-arms

Guess who owns the TM for DPMS Panther Arms? RA Brands LLC. Guess what else they own?

http://www.trademarks411.com/tradema...rands%2C+L.L.C.

Remington

Remington doesn't make guns, that is the model number. LOL!
Who ever said that Remington does not make guns??? What a leap of non-logic!!!
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  #34  
Old 05-07-2013, 1:37 PM
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You are not SCOTUS, so u don't have the last word on it. It's an ongoing discussion.
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Old 05-07-2013, 1:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Actually, you don't get it. Show me a FFL with the name "Panther Arms". Manufacturers are required to be licensed, right?

DPMS is the name of the company, as your links actually shows.

Interesting link. Who is the nameholder? What is the business type?

So tell me what exactly you think that proves? What it actually shows is that DPMS/Panther Arm is NOT the actual name of the company.

Business Type: Assumed Name

Nameholder: DPMS/Firearms LLC

So you are trying to claim that the real name is DPMS Panther Arms? But wait, the links you provided show that is NOT the case and that the name is DPMS without Panther Arms.
Not my fault you don't understand that DPMS Panther Arms did exist and in theory still exists. It is not my fault you don't understand that DPMS Panther Arms was sold to Cerberus Capital Management and then eventually became DPMS under the Freedom Group.

DPMS Panther Arms built rifles and lowers as is evident by the photos of them in existence. That would explain why some newer guns no longer have the DPMS Panther Arms logo, but just DPMS.

And it further proves that DPMS Panther Arms existed so it would not be a make and model number as you so erroneously claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Who ever said that Remington does not make guns??? What a leap of non-logic!!!
You implied it when you said there is no need to trademark a manufacturer. I guess you forgot that already. Here it is again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
There is also a picture of a rifle which has on it DPMS Panther Arms (tm). Typically, a company name is not a trademark.
So using your logic, Remington must not be a manufacturer since typically manufacturers don't need to trademark a name. Hey, it isn't my fault you are grasping at straws to make your case. I have clearly shown that DPMS registered the corporate name DPMS/Panther Arms. Not quite sure how you think that is irrelevant to your specious claim that DPMS Panther Arms is a make and model number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KIMBER8400 View Post
You are not SCOTUS, so u don't have the last word on it. It's an ongoing discussion.
Well the CA Supreme Court ruled on this already. And as of right now, they have the last word on this. I base my knowledge off of their decisions. I am not quite sure what you are basing yours off of.
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  #36  
Old 05-07-2013, 1:52 PM
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Good to know
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  #37  
Old 05-07-2013, 2:17 PM
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I just talked to a sales guy at DPMS. Their non-California guns still get the DPMS Panther Arms Mod:A-15. Their California guns get the DPMS Mod:A-15.

I still contend that is a CYA move to remove all doubt, but that no way proves that a DPMS Panther Arms Mod:A-15 is a DPMS Panther (all).

It might help you to remember how they made the Kasler List. They went and looked through a Shotgun News and added names from the advertisements. It is not our fault they didn't know how to properly list model numbers.

The DPMS guy said the A-15 on their lowers means nothing, their model numbers are actually the mix of letters like RFTL-OC or RFA3-OC.

Again this whole discussion was the reason for the Harrott decision and Kasler List. It is too confusing so if the firearm is not specifically listed by make and model number, the courts are not to assume it is an AK/AR series.
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  #38  
Old 05-07-2013, 2:39 PM
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I don't frequent this FFL forum and tenpercent and i don't always see eye to eye but i can tell you this.

He knows what he speaks in regards to this OP.

Wes, I know you are dedicated! Why entertain these trolls though??
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Old 05-07-2013, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
I don't frequent this FFL forum and tenpercent and i don't always see eye to eye but i can tell you this.

He knows what he speaks in regards to this OP.

Wes, I know you are dedicated! Why entertain these trolls though??
do u even know what troll is?
Or are just using it because it's popular nowadays.
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Old 05-07-2013, 3:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIMBER8400 View Post
do u even know what troll is?
Or are just using it because it's popular nowadays.
I sure do!! Its someone like you arguing over something with an expert (tenpercentfirearms) about the legality of a rifle that is CLEARLY legal in the state of CA and you saying it isn't.
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