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  #81  
Old 07-17-2013, 8:15 PM
runway1 runway1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gambino1 View Post
When hunting with a guide service, I usually take a friend or my father just so I can enjoy not working so hard on the hunt. As for guides some seem to be a little rigid at first, but if they continue to be stupid then I look them in the eye, and say Im calling PCH, they 100% of the time get there sh-t together.
Then I turn the tables, I miss every shot until the last hours of hunt, with a big smile on my face.
Don't understand?? What is PCH??

You pay $600-$800+ just to prove your point - that you're annoyed with the guide?
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  #82  
Old 07-17-2013, 8:34 PM
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Don't understand?? What is PCH??

You pay $600-$800+ just to prove your point - that you're annoyed with the guide?


I think he was being sarcastic.
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  #83  
Old 07-17-2013, 9:34 PM
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. If you guys want me to help you, come up to my place i will release a couple large barbados rams (full grown) and you can give me $500 for each ram so you can shoot them.

I will get more money for the rams that way than if i take them to auction and you will learn from an experienced hunter LMAO

Sounds good, im in. I dont want to get out of cell phone reception though so i can post my photo of my kill the moment im done having you clean it for me. Also can you please make sure i dont have to go to far from my truck as i dont want to miss the this american life on npr. Thanks
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  #84  
Old 07-17-2013, 9:36 PM
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Sounds good, im in. I dont want to get out of cell phone reception though so i can post my photo of my kill the moment im done having you clean it for me. Also can you please make sure i dont have to go to far from my truck as i dont want to miss the this american life on npr. Thanks

lol
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  #85  
Old 07-17-2013, 9:40 PM
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Sounds good, im in. I dont want to get out of cell phone reception though so i can post my photo of my kill the moment im done having you clean it for me. Also can you please make sure i dont have to go to far from my truck as i dont want to miss the this american life on npr. Thanks
How did i know you would take me up on this. I take cash or VISA (in advance) No complaining when i rush you to the barn though.
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  #86  
Old 07-17-2013, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by runway1 View Post
Don't understand?? What is PCH??

You pay $600-$800+ just to prove your point - that you're annoyed with the guide?
Can't believe you don't know him! He's the greatest hunter of all!
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  #87  
Old 07-17-2013, 10:05 PM
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Can't believe you don't know him! He's the greatest hunter of all!
PCH has been gone for some time probably before he joined the forum.
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  #88  
Old 07-17-2013, 10:22 PM
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How did i know you would take me up on this. I take cash or VISA (in advance) No complaining when i rush you to the barn though.
Whats in the barn? also is there anyway you can glue or duck tape some deer antlers to the ram to make it seem more authentic for me?
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  #89  
Old 07-17-2013, 10:27 PM
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You don't like big horns? They do make nice mounts as is.
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  #90  
Old 07-17-2013, 10:28 PM
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Whats in the barn? also is there anyway you can glue or duck tape some deer antlers to the ram to make it seem more authentic for me?
The rams.
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  #91  
Old 07-17-2013, 10:38 PM
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The rams.
That's what she said.
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  #92  
Old 02-01-2014, 10:16 AM
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BTW, back to the thread. Anyone else hunt with Bitterwater? Please chime in.

thanks
A buddy and I did a hunt with BWO last November. Both of us got pigs the first day, so the mission was accomplished. That being said, Clayton was just simply rude, pushy and unpleasant. It was obvious that he wanted the next day off rather than spend it guiding first timers. We won't be hunting with him again.
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  #93  
Old 02-01-2014, 12:21 PM
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Second Take:

Hey everyone. So today I received a phone call from BITTERWATER OUTFITTERS. Apparently they read the review and wanted to get my perspective on the hunt. First of all, I say Kudos to them for following up- that shows a real level of professionalism. I am a bit baffled and also impressed on how they were able to track me down. I did not give a the exact date which I hunted. I even told a small "fib" to throw them off. I actually hunted an EXOTIC but wrote down WILD PIG, as I did not want my Identity to be exposed. Anyways, they were able to figure that I wrote this review. The owner's wife called my directly. Again, pretty impressed they were able to figure it was me that wrote the write up.

So after much thought, and now months since my FIRST and ONLY guided hunt experience. I must say- I have to STAND BY MY WORDS. That is all the words I wrote in my original write up. Without another experience- I can't say that I would HUNT with them again ( giving up my hard earned money) and yet at the same time, I am not sure I can NOT recommend them to you all either. I would say, give them a try and make up your own mind. Each guide is different, you just might get one of the good ones and have a great time. Or you can be like and leave the hunt mildly perplexed and confused on whether or not you just got "jacked" or not.

In conclusion was this a completely negative experience, no, not really. I was able to get some meat in my freezer. That said, was an amazing weekend getaway and hunting experience- definitely not. However, just because they called, I might be able to convince some of my compadres to join me for another hunt- I just might give them one more chance, because everyone deserves a second chance.

cheers
You did them a huge favor by complaining. Negative customer feed back is the best favor you can do any business. You gave them a shot at correcting some huge service issues.

The nasty guide needs to be set strait or fired if they care about their operation.

No excuse for that level of disrespect for a customer that is paying his way. People get too comfortable...new hunters are a shot at expanding the client base and referrals.

This guide might have pegged you for a lousy tipper or a one time johnny, and figured you would not be back and was not worth his time to be polite....look who is taking the hit for that judgement? Now the whole outfit looks bad because one jerk guide decided to judge you instead of work with you.

Just some advice next time you go into an environment like that do not have a smile on your face. Act tough and be demanding in a reasonable way, mirror there behavior...if the boss is gruff be gruff back...unless they give you a good reason to do otherwise. Make them placate you at the start so they know you have high expectations and will not be walked over.

When the guide started to push you around that was the time to stand firm and tell him you would not hunt until you zeroed your scope and you were told you could do that fri at their range....end of story... Some of these dudes are so used to punching cows and horses they think they can treat city slickers the same way and they only respect you when you punch back but then smile...
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  #94  
Old 02-02-2014, 4:41 AM
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Don't understand?? What is PCH??

You pay $600-$800+ just to prove your point - that you're annoyed with the guide?
PCH was an old member that was full of chit do a search it was a riot when he was on.
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  #95  
Old 02-02-2014, 5:26 AM
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Thanx for the review
The nerve of these guys charging $$
And acting like total jerks
Make sure and post your experience on all the forums you use
don't see how these bums stay in business
with such behaviour
N
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  #96  
Old 02-02-2014, 9:30 AM
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Am I a brand new hunter? NO. That said, this was my first "paid/guided hunt". I am in the Military- so I understand being prepared. When I talked to them on the phone. I mentioned, I have a new scope, and have not been able to Zero it. Clayton said, no issues, "we have a range up to 400yards" Show early on Friday and Zero all afternoon. The Hunt will begin SAT morning. That made sense to me.

That said, as you can read above. I showed Friday and got whisked away to hunt. Even though I told the guide that I have a new scope, I need to ZERO it. Regardless he was adamant we move out. Now, I decided since the scope says "zero'd out of the box @ 150m". I gave it a try. Once again my issue was not what transpired Friday afternoon- yet overall experience- was rather lacking in customer service. Like I said above, maybe I caught them on the wrong day. Again as mentioned above- kudos on them for reaching out and trying to better their organization.
No, you were NOT prepared and you are NOT an experienced or ethical hunter. You went on a guided hunt knowing full well you hade not zero'd in your rifle's scope. This your responsibility, not the outfitter/guide. Not zeroing your scope meant that you were likely shooting everywhere except where you should have been shooting. The fact that you willingly went on this hunt "unprepared" makes me question who was really at fault, you or the guide. Now that you've made it clear to everyone that you went on this hunt with a new scope that had no range time makes me realize that you are the problem, not the outfitter guide.

I've been on more than 25 guided hunts. Never would I go out into the field with having spent considerable time at the range. On ethics alone, you should be banned from Calguns. What an idiot!
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  #97  
Old 02-02-2014, 9:51 AM
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I believe most people are missing the most important part of the OP's post. By his own admission, the OP went hunting with a new scope that had not seen any range time. How on earth can someone call themselves an experienced hunter (this has nothing to do with whether or not this is a guided or unguided hunt) going into the field having never fired his rifle with a new scope? The animal you are hunting deserves better and this is an unsafe situation. The OP states that the scope says its zero'd out to 150 yards. My guess this was a package scope/rifle that was bore sighted only. Forget blaming the guide, this "bad" experience falls directly on your shoulders.

One last thing, I've been on many guided hunts where I tagged out within the first few hours or didn't tag out at all. You, the hunter, have the responsibility to tell the oufitter upfront, before your hunt begins, of your hunt expectations. It's your hunt and your responsibility. Need I say more.
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  #98  
Old 02-02-2014, 10:07 AM
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The OP was started in April of 2013.

The last time he posted on CGN was July of 2013. Just sayin.
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  #99  
Old 02-02-2014, 10:36 AM
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And Jesus, you (bull elk) are being harsh. They said he'd have time to zero. He knew he wasn't fully prepared and made accommodations to account for it.
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  #100  
Old 02-02-2014, 10:59 AM
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Harsh? No, not harsh enough. Anyone that goes out into the field having not zero'd their scope well before the hunt shouldn't be hunting in the first place. Remember, the OP blamed the outfitter/guide. The OP took no personal responsibility for being prepared for this hunt to begin with. You do not sight your rifle in the day before or the morning of the hunt. Yes, its a good idea to check your rifle before you hunt, but not the day before or the day of. What happens if there is a problem with your scope? I guess your sol.

Lastly, while I have no affiliation with this outfitter/guide, the OP may have financially impacted the outfitter in a negative way with his post. Okay, I'll grant you that sometimes you'll come across an unfriendly guide or one who has no personality. But before you go online blasting the outfitter because of this guide or because of the poor experience, the OP had a responsibility to speak to the outfitter directly with his concerns.

Harsh? Absolutely not.
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  #101  
Old 02-02-2014, 12:18 PM
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op your mistake was allowing yourself to be rushed
if you wanted to zero your rifle then that's what you should have done

if some silly kid tried to rush you and bully you into goig gout..you had a choice to make there, and you made the wrong one. Understandable, you hate to get off on the wrong foot with the "guide" so you gave in and went out.....but your mistake, not his.

you take the responsibility for that decision. I don't like the steak I send it back..... I don't eat it and complain later.

I think your comments are justified, and take your word for it, however I think you have avoided your own responsibility for allowing the experience to take place the way it did.
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  #102  
Old 03-09-2014, 6:36 PM
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AS the wife of a Guide and Outfitter, you are right. It is a long day with persons who may or may not be as experienced. The intent is to offer services to those who may or may not have either the experience in the field to potentially see and connect. No hunt is ever or should be considered guaranteed, since the client may not have his rifle sited in sufficiently for the distance required to make the shot. Many get too excited and nervous and miss the shot. The wear and tear on the equipment is another thing. It is a business. A person has to pay a significant amount of money to be properly insured and assure the landowner that they are covered as well. I think for those who are looking for a cheap hunt, you may want to look at some who will give you a ride for a low ball price and you may end up having a nice ride in a 4 wheeler and never see anything. The cost of the hunt is based upon all the factors of operating a business in California and where guns are involved, then the costs increase significantly. If you could have done it alone, on your own, then great. However the fact is if you are seeking lands that have wildlife, many rancher's are realizing the potential of allowing Professional operators to access and earning the added revenue to cover costs on the property as a whole. My advice for anyone, seeking a hunt is to check references, not just one story. Look at the work if you are getting taxidermy done, after all you don't want something that has the startled look of headlights. There are Great, Good and Less than average people offering services as guides. Currently the going rates are about $800.00 for taking out a single hunter. If there are 2 hunters, the price could be less, $700.00/person. The cost of adding an additional pig may be $500.00 or as little as $300.00 based upon the size of the animal. The sad thing is, in reference to a previous outfitter in SLO County, the person complaining had every right to point out his disappointment. When anyone is paying for a hunt, the period of time is to assist you and make sure you are getting what you are paying for. IT is YOUR HUNT, it is not supposed to be a RUSH here, SHOOT IT, scenario. You are paying for that person's time. I can only assume he has not been "trained" on how to deal with the public, or treat people with the courtesy and consideration they deserve. They are the Customer, he is only there to provide Service and assistance. It is supposed to be an enjoyable time shared assisting those who don't have the land available, or the experience and skills to possibly get on game they seek without some assistance. I know the outfitter and his guide first hand and it would not necessarily be someone I would refer.
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  #103  
Old 03-09-2014, 7:31 PM
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taperxz,
i don't know where you find the patience. i see you month after month telling it like it is.
you make no effort towards hiding your passion for our sport and invariably take abuse from some city kid that watches too many U tube videos.


OP, what you paid to do wasn't "hunting". it's not something that hunters do even if some that do it like to think of themselves as hunters.

my advice is never do that again, you made a mistake. hire a fair chase guide or hunt tejon ranch as some recommended if you like but if you want to be a hunter you should know it's awful hard to do once youv'e traded your self respect for an easy kill.
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  #104  
Old 03-10-2014, 8:56 AM
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The best guided pig hunts are the ones where the guides feed the pigs from out of the pickup all week. Then with the guys from LA show up for the wild pig hunt the guide drives them out some place and slams the door of the pickup. When the pigs hear the door slam they all come running to get feed. The guide then starts screaming; "shoot, shoot they're attacking!!!" FUN STUFF!

The OP is right. His guides were very boring! Guides on this type of hunt need some training on how to make the hunt fun and enjoyable. Even if they need to goose the hunter just before the shot;-)=

If the guide makes his work seem like work then the client needs to complain. To many of these young guys guiding on these pay to hunt ranches are strong physically without much worldly experience.

Good help is hard to find. The Grants may need to put some time into cultivating their help.

Last edited by Reba; 03-10-2014 at 9:00 AM..
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  #105  
Old 03-10-2014, 9:03 AM
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Welcome to guided hunt's, you got what you paid for, someone to point out your animals for you and then say take one.
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  #106  
Old 03-10-2014, 1:46 PM
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The best guided pig hunts are the ones where the guides feed the pigs from out of the pickup all week. Then with the guys from LA show up for the wild pig hunt the guide drives them out some place and slams the door of the pickup. When the pigs hear the door slam they all come running to get feed. The guide then starts screaming; "shoot, shoot they're attacking!!!" FUN STUFF!
That's what I want this way I can get close shoot one in the head with an ar-15. Then brag about my ninja hunting skills and how great a 223 is as a hog round with my 64 gr hog slammers !!!
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  #107  
Old 03-10-2014, 5:23 PM
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Bull elk, your position is ridiculous. OP did not show up at the hunt unprepared, he showed up for an afternoon of range time that was agreed on. The guide denied him this, and would have to be considered every bit as unethical as you say OP was.
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  #108  
Old 10-19-2014, 11:19 PM
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Bull Elk, I unequivocally disagree. I was supposed have all of FRIDAY AFTERNOON to zero my rifle. All I needed was an hour about about 18 rounds to get a good zero. Time was built in to make that happen.

Again read my original post.. it says it all.
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  #109  
Old 10-20-2014, 10:37 AM
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Bull Elk, I unequivocally disagree. I was supposed have all of FRIDAY AFTERNOON to zero my rifle. All I needed was an hour about about 18 rounds to get a good zero. Time was built in to make that happen.

Again read my original post.. it says it all.
This is why I disagree with you and others who seem to support your position. You have missed my point....You don't zero in your rifle the day before your hunt. Eighteen rounds to sight your scope? Why so many? Did you just pluck a number off the top of your head? It should take less than 5 rounds if your scope was bore sighted prior to your range time.

If I'm hunting with a newer rifle/scope that hasn't been fired at the range, I'll probably go through a minimum of 100 rounds before that rifle is taken into the field to hunt. I will fire from the prone position, standing (with or without a rest), 100 to 300 yards, etc. I'll try many different types of ammo to find the one that my rifle shoots best. The bottom line, I want to know exactly how my rifle will perform in the field. Eighteen rounds? How do you even come up with a number like that. Obviously you've never sighted in a rifle before.

Once I've got my rifle shooting exactly where I want it to shoot, I continue shooting it to ensure that I'm extremely comfortable and confident with it. I own a good number of hunting rifles, some that I've had for 10-20 years. Even though I know they are still zero'd in from many days spent at the range, I'll still shoot a minimum of 20+ rounds again prior to taking them out to hunt.

So, let me ask you a couple of questions. What if you had the "one day and one hour" to fire your 18 rounds the day before the hunt and you still found that your rifle wasn't shooting accurately? Would you hunt with it any way knowing that you could miss or even worse wound the animal? Did you bring a back up rifle with you? What happens if you've unfortunately purchased a bad scope (it happens more frequently than you may think). What would you do? You cannot go and buy another and get it mounted, bore sighted and zero'd before your hunt starts the next day. What happens if you found out the scope wasn't mounted properly? Did you bring the proper tools with you to fix the problem?

Obviously you've not hunted much in your life. I'm 57 years old and have hunted deer since I was 12 and elk since I was in my early 30's. I've hunted in 7-8 states and take great pride in being prepared for my hunts. I'm not a target shooter, but have sighted in 40-50 rifles at the range and fired many thousands of rounds in preparation for my hunts. To have a hunter get angry at the guide because he (you) waited until the very last moment to get your equipment ready is totally unfair and unreasonable. You should have spent many days in advance of your hunt at the range shooting from many different positions and trying many different types of ammo to ensure that you were 100% confident in how your rifle would perform. Confidence is a major part of any successful hunt. The last thing one wants to worry about is how their rifle will perform. Confidence comes from practice....LOTS OF PRACTICE. Eighteen rounds does not result in lots of practice.

While I think its a good thing to fire a couple rounds just prior to you hunt (to "recheck your zero"....not to sight in your rifle for the first time) especially if you've traveled by plane or if you were aware of your rifle being tossed or banged around while traveling to your hunt, it is not acceptable to take a rifle and shoot it for the first time 24 hours or less before you actually use it. If someone showed up to my hunting camp and did what you did, I'd send him home.

Just so you are aware, I showed your post to 3 of my hunting buddies; all of whom have as much if not more hunting experience than me. I also sent your post to several guides I hunt with on a regular basis, including a pig guide in CA. All of them said that it was in poor form and unacceptable to show up with a rifle that hasn't been fire or sighted in a day before your hunt. The pig guide (who is well know and respected in Nor. Cal) said he would have given you your money back and sent you home.

Don't blame your guide...........look in the mirror if you want someone to blame. You may only get one opportunity to fill your tag on a hunt. It all comes down to preparation and confidence. Sighting a rifle in for the first time the day before a hunt represents neither.............
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:39 AM
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Bull elk, your position is ridiculous. OP did not show up at the hunt unprepared, he showed up for an afternoon of range time that was agreed on. The guide denied him this, and would have to be considered every bit as unethical as you say OP was.
You're not a hunter....that's for sure. Shooting a rifle for the first time the day before does not result in the preparation one needs prior to a hunt and definitely does not result in the CONFIDENCE one needs to have to hopefully have a successful hunt.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:53 AM
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You're not a hunter....that's for sure. Shooting a rifle for the first time the day before does not result in the preparation one needs prior to a hunt and definitely does not result in the CONFIDENCE one needs to have to hopefully have a successful hunt.
meh...I don't know....I usually pull out my rifle prior to a hunt shoot it 3 or 4 times and case it.

I just bought a new slug gun and I won another slug gun at a D.U. dinner. Shotgun only in Illinois. I will take two boxes of shells probably shoot each gun 3-5 times. Case it and hunt them. Ones a Savage 12 gauge bolt rifled slug gun...the other is an H&R single 20 rifled slug gun.

Unless I'm going on a trip where I know ranges will be 300+ I don't screw around with anything. Just shoot OTC bullets and call it a day.

Now..Honestly I wouldn't show up on a guided trip without zeroing but if I just bought a shiny new rifle and I didn't have anywhere to shoot it...(probably this guys case)....than I would have planned with the guide ahead of time. It sounds like he did.

I can't tell you how many times I've borrowed a rifle or shotgun from a friend shot it once and went hunting. Same scenario really.
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Old 10-20-2014, 1:00 PM
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I've got to add this as well....

I've never been a huge fan of guiding....but I think it's just one of those necessary evils that we have now. I think it allows more folks to get involved and have success which is great. But it really hurts the everyday hunters. Leases have just gotten out of control.

I wish more states would adopt the North Dakota mindset. Zero liability for farmers and no hunting leases. not posted go hunt. They really have some great rules...if you are a guide they are extremely strict.

Now that I'm off that soap box.....the guide is really the professional and will be dealing with folks who can't make it happen on their own for the most part. A guide should do everything in their power to make the client happy.

Here's my biggest issue with this incident and why I don't fault the Op right away. He made the guide aware of not being zeroed and the guide took him anyway. Right then and there I would of said HELL NO!! I would never take a gun in the field that I have no clue where it is hitting. It's simply unsafe. The guide should have never allowed it and the Op should have said no.

There's fault on both sides but for the most part I blame the guide......even if my rifle was zeroed I always like to take a shot or two when I arrive at a hunting location. I just like the confidence boost. I don't blame guides ever for not seeing game but they need to ensure safety and make sure everythings on the up and up...I didn't see that happen here.
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Old 10-20-2014, 3:07 PM
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Let me say this. Why 18rounds? OK first if all not a dead set number. Here is my point. Typically 9 rounds and I'm zero'd. Something like this.. Its a big event..u shoot ur 9. Get up..take 5. Then come come back shoot another 6 to 9,rounds and are confirm your zero. So between 15 to 18 rounds. That's kinda my process for a new scope..before a hunt.

If you have a problem with that, I don't really care.
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Old 10-20-2014, 3:09 PM
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@jmonte35. Sure I see ur point. Just keep n mind that's what Friday was for. They have a nice 400m range and I brought plenty of ammo.
But I get it. I should have said.. "Sorry not zero d...gotta zero..then we can Hunt"
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Old 10-20-2014, 3:17 PM
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A lot of the stuff BE said makes perfect sense. I think the thing we are all missing to some degree is that the OP had a ****ty first hand experience that got him frustrated/annoyed/etc. especially considering he probably dropped around $700 for the hunt plus all the stuff makes it a $1,000 weekend. Thus we didn't live your bad hunt personally. To be fair you probably had some romantic notion about your guided hunt and in reality it's not typically like that. When given a shot opportunity the guide REALLY wants you to connect especially given the fact that unless this is a guaranteed hunt you may not see another animal and then go home disappointed with no meat.

There is no shame in a guided hunt imo and in fact having friends who are guides have benefited me quite a bit in that I've gotten to tag along on some fun stuff.

TGM - have you hunted since then? I don't recall seeing you post in the hunting forum except for this unfortunate experience. Hopefully you can stick around and learn a lot from those who have quality knowledge and are willing to share.


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  #116  
Old 10-20-2014, 3:27 PM
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When I travelled to Alaska the first thing we did was re zero our rifles to make sure nothing changed in transit.

It was no big deal, and took 10 minutes.
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Old 10-20-2014, 3:33 PM
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meh...I don't know....I usually pull out my rifle prior to a hunt shoot it 3 or 4 times and case it.

I just bought a new slug gun and I won another slug gun at a D.U. dinner. Shotgun only in Illinois. I will take two boxes of shells probably shoot each gun 3-5 times. Case it and hunt them. Ones a Savage 12 gauge bolt rifled slug gun...the other is an H&R single 20 rifled slug gun.

Unless I'm going on a trip where I know ranges will be 300+ I don't screw around with anything. Just shoot OTC bullets and call it a day.

Now..Honestly I wouldn't show up on a guided trip without zeroing but if I just bought a shiny new rifle and I didn't have anywhere to shoot it...(probably this guys case)....than I would have planned with the guide ahead of time. It sounds like he did.

I can't tell you how many times I've borrowed a rifle or shotgun from a friend shot it once and went hunting. Same scenario really.
Actually, I agree with you......only if it was a rifle you've fired before and are comfortable and confident in how it shoots. In that situation, shooting 3-4 rounds will probably tell you all you need to know about how it shoots. In my case, I like to shoot my rifles (rather than just check them to make sure they shoot accurately). I just enjoy shooting. However, in reading the OP's post, it appears that this was a rifle that he had never fired before or that he had a new scope on it, as he needed to "sight it in", not check the rifles zero. If I had to borrow a rifle, I'd still want to shoot it if I could; however, I never have had to borrow one, as I always have a back up rifle with me for those unanticipated situations that often occur.
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Old 10-20-2014, 3:35 PM
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@lewdogg21.. "Some romantic notion" I did have a bit of that. Lol

I haven't hunted since..overseas at the moment. Coming home soon..so will get back into it in a couple months.
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Old 10-20-2014, 3:39 PM
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@bullelk. Like I said 15 to 18 rounds for a new scope before the hunt. And yes, I did bring a backup rifle just n case.
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Old 10-20-2014, 3:45 PM
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In re-reading my posts, I probably have come on a bit to strong. I apologize to TGM in doing so. Your right, some people can zero their scopes in just a few rounds. Others need several boxes and still can't figure out why it isn't shooting right. The two fella's shooting next to me last Saturday at the range were two good examples. One was shooting a .338 and complained all day long that the rifle was hurting his shoulder. After getting his rifle to within 6" of where he wanted it, he said "it's good enough". That's not fair to the mule deer (yes, mule deer) that he was headed out to Colorado to hunt. His buddy *****ed for two hours because he was shooting all over the map. He asked if I would check his gun out because "it was a problem". Easy enough. Two windage screws were loose...very loose.

I wished the OP had had a great hunt. I know I can only speak for myself, but I know that I will enjoy my hunt more knowing that I am confident in how my rifle shoots. I cannot get that confidence sighting it in the day before.

Again, I apologize to the OP. I could have responded differently and still got my point across. Trust me, if you spend quality time at the range, your confidence in the field will magnify many times over.

As for guides, I think they can be a great benefit for newer hunters. There is much that can be learned from someone who does for a living what you do in a day or two. When I reference "guides" mostly its with outfitters who are more friends than guides and often don't "guide" me, but are there to support me when it comes time to pack out an elk from a ravine.
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