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  #1  
Old 04-07-2013, 7:23 AM
allquieton allquieton is offline
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Default What can off duty Border Patrol agents carry in CA?

Does anyone know where to find this information?

From what I understand federal agents can legally buy and own firearms banned in CA as long as they are legal under federal law.

But can they carry them off duty?

And do they need a ccw permit to carry off duty? Or are they covered under the LEO Safety Act?
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  #2  
Old 04-07-2013, 7:33 AM
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The language of the LEOSA is pretty clear about that.
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  #3  
Old 04-07-2013, 7:38 AM
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When i worked Customs (DHS) we carried (under Govt authority) our agency issued Glock 17 off duty. If we wanted to carry something other than that, we would have to get a CCW. Things may have changed since then, so your answers may vary.
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Old 04-07-2013, 7:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allquieton View Post
Does anyone know where to find this information?

From what I understand federal agents can legally buy and own firearms banned in CA as long as they are legal under federal law.

But can they carry them off duty?

And do they need a ccw permit to carry off duty? Or are they covered under the LEO Safety Act?
Why do you ask?
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  #5  
Old 04-07-2013, 12:46 PM
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J-cat: I think it's clear too. But I don't always trust my own readings of legal documents. Just wanted other opinions.

Leman: I've been told I would need a ccw to carry any non-service weapon off duty. But no has been able to tell me why. Is it Customs policy? Or an actual law? It seems to me that under LEOSA I should be able to. No?

Paul: Because I don't know, and I want to know what others think. Why do you ask?
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Old 04-07-2013, 1:00 PM
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Because I don't know why you asked.

Still don't, but that is okay.
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  #7  
Old 04-07-2013, 2:27 PM
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I would say, if you are a border patrol officer, check with the legal department of your department. They should know the answer or consult with someone from the DOJ. This probably isn't the place to be looking for legal advice that could affect your carrier. My 2’
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  #8  
Old 04-07-2013, 2:42 PM
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The legal department of a law enforcement agency does not provide legal advice to individual agents. It provides advice to the agency, aka management. Sending an agent to the legal department with such a question will land him in some hot water.
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Old 04-07-2013, 2:49 PM
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http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/leosiss.pdf
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  #10  
Old 04-07-2013, 5:09 PM
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Thanks for the info J-Cat. Very helpful.
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  #11  
Old 04-08-2013, 7:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allquieton View Post

Paul: Because I don't know, and I want to know what others think. Why do you ask?
Are you a Border Patrol Agent?
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  #12  
Old 04-08-2013, 2:04 PM
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Do you work for border patrol? if so ask someone in administration, if not why do you ask then? My Dept and other local agencies carry what they want off duty, except your duty gun obviously
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  #13  
Old 04-08-2013, 7:38 PM
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peace officer and feds. are exempt from the banned guns and hi cap mags for off duty. example, they can buy a springfield xdm,
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  #14  
Old 04-08-2013, 7:50 PM
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Per LEOSA and California's gun laws, just make sure you don't carry any handguns in California that are banned under CA's version of the AWB; I.E., Taurus Judge, etc.
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  #15  
Old 04-08-2013, 8:03 PM
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Currently
Fed employees including ICE, have a list of approved firearms, they create their list by internal testing
Currently glock sub compact 40s are not on the list, glock sub 9s are, there are some sigs and HKs on the list too, I might still have the list somewhere

They get real good training though, and have really good qualification requirements, with actual tactical reloads and such, weapon transition.

being Feds, LEOSA applies in a diff manner, I'll look again tomorrow maybe, theres something diff about it though as I recall

LEOSA is going to depend upon if you are a qualified peace officer, if your boss says you need a CCW, I'm guessing you need a CCW and are not covered under LEOSA for your particular assignment
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  #16  
Old 04-08-2013, 9:19 PM
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Not trying to de-rail this thread, however NineteenElev3n you can most certainly purchase off-roster pistols without being law enforcement. Even new. Message me for details...

I would assume it's some sort of liability issue allowing whatever weapon you would like to carry, which is why they might limit you to certain firearms. Therefore if you desire to carry a gun other than the department issued gun, you do it on your own time under the legalities of a CCW permit. That's my take on it.
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  #17  
Old 04-08-2013, 10:20 PM
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According to BP agents I know, they are only authorized to carry their issued H&K P2000 off duty. I believe that to be a policy. They can carry something different legally without a CCW but would violate BP policy. Thus some BP agents seek to obtain a CCW in order to carry other guns without doing so under the authority as a federal agent and would do so as Joe Citizen with a CCW.
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  #18  
Old 04-08-2013, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
The legal department of a law enforcement agency does not provide legal advice to individual agents. It provides advice to the agency, aka management. Sending an agent to the legal department with such a question will land him in some hot water.
Depends. The legal advisor for my former Department provided legal opinions for individual deputies all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MmmSti View Post
Not trying to de-rail this thread, however NineteenElev3n you can most certainly purchase off-roster pistols without being law enforcement. Even new. Message me for details...

I would assume it's some sort of liability issue allowing whatever weapon you would like to carry, which is why they might limit you to certain firearms. Therefore if you desire to carry a gun other than the department issued gun, you do it on your own time under the legalities of a CCW permit. That's my take on it.
We're not talking SSE here, as it rarely applies or is needed by LE until you retire.

OP, if you're legally allowed to carry concealed in California due to Federal LEO status, legally it doesn't matter what you carry. You may very well get in the grease with your employer, and they may not support you in a civil matter, but that's another story.

I could legally carry anything I wanted to off duty, but my Department had a list of approved firearms that we were restricted to use. If we got caught carrying something unauthorized, you could be subject to disciplinary action and the Department could wash its hands of you in a civil case. There are some that are of the opinion that LEOSA overrides Department policy, but I know of cases where guys have tried that aspect of a defense in disciplinary cases and the Department won every time. One guy was stuck with some substantial legal bills when the Department left him hung out to dry on a civil suit.

The day I retired, I could carry anything I wanted, but can no longer buy off roster firearms. Glad I anticipated that, and got what I wanted before pulling the plug.
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  #19  
Old 04-08-2013, 11:13 PM
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Off duty carry hk p2000 issued to you at the academy unless you have a CCW issued to you from Ca.
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Old 04-09-2013, 5:09 AM
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DHS policy states that you must carry authorized weapons that you haved qualified with for duty.

You can get a CCW for any other weapons that the agency does not authorize. However, why would you want to? You are just leaving yourself vulnerable to legal issues that the agency cannot assist you with.

My interpretation is that what if you decide to buy that fancy 1911 with the hair trigger, and have a ND hitting a bystander? Your agency has plausible deniability that they did not train nor authorize you to have that weapon, and cannot back you on it's use.
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  #21  
Old 04-09-2013, 5:14 PM
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Policy has always been to carry the firearm you qualify with in order to be covered in case of off-duty incident. This has been the policy even pre 9/11 before agency merger, whether you were Legacy INS or Customs.

What did this mean? Well, if you were a Border Patrol Agent, you had to carry either the Beretta 96D Brigadeer or Sig 229 DAO if it was on your property card. Later the H&K USP LEM compact was allowed if you purchased under the special order H&K gave to all INS Inspectors, Border Patrol Agents, and Criminal Investigators and subsequently qualified and placed on your property card. Believe me, the Beretta was a huge PITA to carry of duty because it weighed a ton and was huge, and the Sig was only better in overall length. I never got to carry the H&K off duty because I went to another agency and had not received mine from H&K until after I returned from FLETC.
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  #22  
Old 04-20-2013, 9:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiko View Post
According to BP agents I know, they are only authorized to carry their issued H&K P2000 off duty. I believe that to be a policy. They can carry something different legally without a CCW but would violate BP policy. Thus some BP agents seek to obtain a CCW in order to carry other guns without doing so under the authority as a federal agent and would do so as Joe Citizen with a CCW.
If they use the same use of force handbook that CBP Officer's use, there is a section that states that another firearm can be carried as long as all state, local, and federal laws are followed. LEOSA is a federal law and the BPA, IMO would be in compliance with agency policy.
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Old 04-20-2013, 9:55 PM
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California is very picky when it comes to what type of CCW you have. Under the Patriot Act, as long as you are from a law enforcement agency, you are allowed to carry your weapon in CA. By this, I mean law enforcement that are recognized in the U.S.A.. HOWEVER, you also need your some sort of identification (divers license or I.D.) that goes with your law enforcement identification from your State. Southern CA law enforcement might not honor just your metal shield/badge in case you are stopped and declare you have a weapon with you. The reason is because there are so many instance of criminals impersonating law enforcement officers.
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  #24  
Old 04-20-2013, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncortez11 View Post
California is very picky when it comes to what type of CCW you have. Under the Patriot Act, as long as you are from a law enforcement agency, you are allowed to carry your weapon in CA. By this, I mean law enforcement that are recognized in the U.S.A.. HOWEVER, you also need your some sort of identification (divers license or I.D.) that goes with your law enforcement identification from your State. Southern CA law enforcement might not honor just your metal shield/badge in case you are stopped and declare you have a weapon with you. The reason is because there are so many instance of criminals impersonating law enforcement officers.
Patriot Act has nothing to do with it.

LEOs may carry nationwide under th Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, aka LEOSA.

Just a badge has never been sufficient. A department issue photo ID indicating peace officer status is necessary. Us retired guys also need proof of annual qualification as well as CCW status upon retirement.
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Old 04-21-2013, 5:42 AM
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It has not been mentioned yet and since this is a Fed involved question.....




http://www.fedsprotection.com/
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  #26  
Old 04-21-2013, 8:01 AM
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"Allquinton" are you the academy right now? Or are you already in the field.
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Old 04-21-2013, 8:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Patriot Act has nothing to do with it.

LEOs may carry nationwide under th Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, aka LEOSA.

Just a badge has never been sufficient. A department issue photo ID indicating peace officer status is necessary. Us retired guys also need proof of annual qualification as well as CCW status upon retirement.
Agreed!
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:22 AM
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I didnt know we had "on duty" boarder patrol agents....lol
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Old 04-24-2013, 9:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiko View Post
According to BP agents I know, they are only authorized to carry their issued H&K P2000 off duty. I believe that to be a policy. They can carry something different legally without a CCW but would violate BP policy. Thus some BP agents seek to obtain a CCW in order to carry other guns without doing so under the authority as a federal agent and would do so as Joe Citizen with a CCW.
+1, They are only authorized to carry their issued H&K, CBP and ICE have different policies.
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:47 AM
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I just want to update everyone on this. The anti-gun zealot Kamala Harris has recently rescinded a memo written by Attorney General Bill Lockyear back in December, 2000. That memo stated that Federal Agents were to be considered Peace Officers for the sake of purchasing and carrying a weapon. Since that memo has been rescinded, we can no longer buy any gun or magazine not available to the general public, according to DOJ. Some gun shops are still selling to us, but the word is going around and those shops are not allowing Federal Agents to make any purchases, even with letters. So to answer the OP's question, be careful what you do in California, since they do not recognize your law enforement status here.

I am currently writing letters to State Representitives, and I have contacted several lawyers. The bottom line is that if Federal Agents have no peace officer status with regards to weapons, then it's technically possible that a Federal Agent could be charged with a violation of the state gun laws. I realize that this is unlikely, but I refuse to put my career on the line by taking a chance that this nutty state won't take legal action against me.

Last edited by will0861; 07-29-2013 at 11:49 AM..
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  #31  
Old 07-29-2013, 6:25 PM
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LEOSA authorizes all qualified peace officers to carry any handgun they want off-duty, so long as they are qualified to carry a handgun on-duty. LEOSA trumps any agency policy which attempts to control off-duty concealed carry.
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Old 07-29-2013, 6:28 PM
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Myth – Only LEOs with agency permission can carry off-duty under LEOSA.

• September 2007: Federal corrections officer prosecuted on disciplinary charges by the Bureau of Prisons for carrying a handgun off-duty without permission and for misusing his agency identification. Administrative Judge dismissed both charges. Court found that the officer did not need agency approval to carry under LEOSA. It also found that the officer only used the identification, but not to secure privileges unavailable to the general public. (Davis v. Dept of Justice, 2007 Merit System Protection Board Lexis 5609, 2007)

• Representative Scott proposed a provision that LEOSA shall not be construed to supersede or limit the rules, regulations, policies, or practices of any State or local law enforcement agency. This amendment was defeated by a vote of 11 yeas to 21 nays. (H.R. Rep. No. 560, 108th Cong, 2nd Sess. 2004 p. 7)

• An officer trained only to use a firearm in a correctional setting but not trained to carry one on-duty, and not allowed to carry off-duty, is still covered by LEOSA if they meet all requirements of LEOSA. (H.R. Rep. No. 560, 108th Cong., 2nd Sess. 2004 p. 53-62)

• “The protection provided by LEOSA is simply not reduced or eliminated because an otherwise qualified officer fails to obtain permission from his department to use the weapon" (People v. Drew Peterson)

• CA DOJ says, “On-duty restrictions placed by the department appear to be permissible. Off-duty restrictions appear to be superceded by this Act.” http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/leosiss.pdf

• FOP says: “If you are a qualified active law enforcement officer, you are legally able to carry a firearm under 18 USC 926B. There may be agencies which enforce or adopt policies, rules, regulations, or employment conditions which discourage or punish officers which choose to carry while off-duty, but such actions do not mean that the officer cannot carry lawfully under the provisions of this statute. Your agency, however, can prohibit you from carrying your agency-issued weapon, which is the property of the governmental entity. http://www.fop.net/legislative/issue...8/hr218faq.pdf
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Last edited by CalCop; 07-29-2013 at 6:33 PM..
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Old 07-29-2013, 7:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalCop View Post
Myth – Only LEOs with agency permission can carry off-duty under LEOSA.

• September 2007: Federal corrections officer prosecuted on disciplinary charges by the Bureau of Prisons for carrying a handgun off-duty without permission and for misusing his agency identification. Administrative Judge dismissed both charges. Court found that the officer did not need agency approval to carry under LEOSA. It also found that the officer only used the identification, but not to secure privileges unavailable to the general public. (Davis v. Dept of Justice, 2007 Merit System Protection Board Lexis 5609, 2007)

• Representative Scott proposed a provision that LEOSA shall not be construed to supersede or limit the rules, regulations, policies, or practices of any State or local law enforcement agency. This amendment was defeated by a vote of 11 yeas to 21 nays. (H.R. Rep. No. 560, 108th Cong, 2nd Sess. 2004 p. 7)

• An officer trained only to use a firearm in a correctional setting but not trained to carry one on-duty, and not allowed to carry off-duty, is still covered by LEOSA if they meet all requirements of LEOSA. (H.R. Rep. No. 560, 108th Cong., 2nd Sess. 2004 p. 53-62)

• “The protection provided by LEOSA is simply not reduced or eliminated because an otherwise qualified officer fails to obtain permission from his department to use the weapon" (People v. Drew Peterson)

• CA DOJ says, “On-duty restrictions placed by the department appear to be permissible. Off-duty restrictions appear to be superceded by this Act.” http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/leosiss.pdf

• FOP says: “If you are a qualified active law enforcement officer, you are legally able to carry a firearm under 18 USC 926B. There may be agencies which enforce or adopt policies, rules, regulations, or employment conditions which discourage or punish officers which choose to carry while off-duty, but such actions do not mean that the officer cannot carry lawfully under the provisions of this statute. Your agency, however, can prohibit you from carrying your agency-issued weapon, which is the property of the governmental entity. http://www.fop.net/legislative/issue...8/hr218faq.pdf
Have an off duty incident. Your legal bills will be extensive, even should you be 100% perfect on the shoot. Add the potential suspension days, reduced rank or even termination. Are you willing to make that gamble?

Personally, if I was employed as a BP Agent I would pursue a state CCW, if for no other reason than should the need arise, having the ability to carry a small handgun (IE: my BUG) off duty.
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Old 07-29-2013, 7:23 PM
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One question I would have for the BP folks: If the HK2000 is the primary on/off duty weapon, how are back-up guns (BUG) handled? Is there an authorized list + qualifications? If so, I would argue to the legal eagles upstairs that the BUG qualification should carry over to off duty too.
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Old 07-29-2013, 7:33 PM
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The issue I was explaining isn't wether or not Feds can carry. My point is that California isn't acknowledging Feds in any of the current laws, so without clear language from the state, you may get in some hot water until you hire a good lawyer. Just as an FYI....CALDOJ has no idea what FLEOSA is, so just be careful out there.
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Old 07-29-2013, 7:55 PM
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CA DOJ information regarding LEOSA:
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/leosanew
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/leosiss.pdf
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Old 07-29-2013, 8:01 PM
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DHS memo indicates Border Patrol is included:
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/f...safety_act.pdf

Sheepdog Academy list of qualified agencies includes Border Patrol:
http://www.hr218leosa.com/docs/Table...uthorities.pdf

PoliceOne's endorsement of Sheepdog Academy:
http://www.policeone.com/off-duty/ti...SA-legal-info/
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Last edited by CalCop; 07-29-2013 at 8:09 PM..
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Old 07-29-2013, 8:23 PM
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Thanks for the info. I would print those out and keep them handy. But for fun you should call CalDoj and ask them. I promise you they won't have the faintest idea what your talking about.

But my original statement is still correct. CalDoj is telling gun shops that we have no authority to carry or purchase hi cap mags or off roster pistols. So, like I said, we are in the middle. California doesn't give two ****s about us, and most federal agencies would rather we not carry anyway, so we're getting it from both sides. Which if you carry your duty weapon, off duty, Califronia does not feel you have the authority to do so, otherwise we could purchase regular magazines and off roster pistols.

I'm not trying to get in an argument, but I want everyone to understand how F'd up CALDOJ and the Attorney General are.
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  #39  
Old 07-29-2013, 8:30 PM
CalCop CalCop is offline
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I will not argue with you that CA DOJ is biased against most guns and gun owners. I guess that could include cops. But not in my experience. I know some of their agents and have dealt with local investigations regarding off-duty cops, where DOJ DAGs got involved. They actually gave the cops the benefit of the doubt in each instance possible, and the cops were not prosecuted. The DOJ agents I know are as familiar with LEOSA as officers in my agency (which ain't sayin' much). I will admit I have not had experience with the Border Patrol...since I live really far from the border. I think if you carried the print-outs, as you suggest, you will be fine. CA DOJ doesn't run around trying to enforce laws on Federal Agents. They normally have enough to do, dealing with non-cops. Besides, you're only gonna really run into local cops. I've never seen a DOJ agent when I'm off-duty...and only scarcely in my official capacity...what kind of scenario are you worried about?
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Last edited by CalCop; 07-29-2013 at 8:33 PM..
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  #40  
Old 07-29-2013, 9:11 PM
will0861 will0861 is offline
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You've had much better luck than I have. I called CALDOJ and I was told things that I knew were false. Such as I should get a CCW for my duty weapon. I was also told that even though I can no longer buy off roster guns I can still waive the 10 day wait and can still buy regular magazines. Which both are incorrect.

Bottom line is, the Federal Government says I can board a plane armed, and California says I can't buy an off roster gun because its unsafe? I'm fighting this to the end just on principal.

So, any chance you can talk to your friends at CALDOJ and figure out how we get this nonsense fixed? There was a policy in place for the last 13 years that worked fine. And that idiot Kamala Harris had to stick her stupid nose in and mess things up for everyone.
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