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  #241  
Old 06-24-2013, 3:58 PM
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I dropped a 30 lb log on my thumb while splitting logs. To say it hurt like a SOB is an understatement. I can guarantee you that being shot in most areas of the body with any generally used combat round will not make you combat effective.
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  #242  
Old 06-24-2013, 4:41 PM
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I dropped a 30 lb log on my thumb while splitting logs. To say it hurt like a SOB is an understatement. I can guarantee you that being shot in most areas of the body with any generally used combat round will not make you combat effective.
So you have personally witnessed men getting hit with 5.56 or other rounds?

A log falling on your thumb does not equal getting shot.
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  #243  
Old 06-24-2013, 6:42 PM
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Every forum has an AK vs AR thread,they all read the same way.

Anyways,Im an AK guy but thats just my personal preference.I dont think anyone would do bad with either one as long as they get a quality model and practice with it,some instructor training wouldnt hurt either.
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  #244  
Old 06-24-2013, 7:57 PM
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So you have personally witnessed men getting hit with 5.56 or other rounds?

A log falling on your thumb does not equal getting shot.
I bet it hurt like a motherFer though
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  #245  
Old 06-24-2013, 9:57 PM
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  #246  
Old 06-24-2013, 10:11 PM
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Op: AK all day for the reasons mentioned. Reliability and Simplicity. Low maintenance. I'm not shooting past 300 yards and frankly all these exotic calibers that were manufactured to make up for the deficiencies of .223 /5.56 are just that exotic. Now that I've answered the question.

They are two completely different weapons that perform with different strengths in mind. Where possible, I would like an AR-15 in 5.56 as an option for targets between 300 and 500 yds. Anything further away and we are introducing more platforms into the equation. Hopefully, SHTF never comes to pass. If it does, the AR is a luxury for me. If I've got one sling than an AKM is what's it going on.

That said, I'm not going to tear down our brothers that run the AR15 exclusively. We're on the same side for Pete's sake.

That's it. There's a place for both. Hopefully we are all aiming at the Preservation of our God Given rights which are not to be manipulated by any politician for any reason.

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  #247  
Old 06-24-2013, 10:17 PM
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AK all the way for me. I don't think I can operate the AR's charging handle when I'm under duress. No, I can't operate the charging handle even at the range!

The AK is just a much simpler rifle for me to operate.
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  #248  
Old 06-24-2013, 10:53 PM
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wonder If Anyone Picking Ak47 Has Ever Been In A Firefight With Either Lol..... That Being Said Ar More Ammo Lighter More Modular Hella Easy To Maintain Unless Youre Retarded And 556 Is Much MorE available
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  #249  
Old 06-24-2013, 10:54 PM
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And Trust Me 556x45 Does Just As Good Against Humans As 762x39
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  #250  
Old 06-24-2013, 10:58 PM
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Would Post A Few Pictures But Might Get In Trouble Plus Nobody Wants To See That ****
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  #251  
Old 06-25-2013, 8:18 AM
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And Trust Me 556x45 Does Just As Good Against Humans As 762x39
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  #252  
Old 06-25-2013, 8:27 AM
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You Ever Seen It? I Have And Known People To Operate With Several 762 Rounds In Them Myself Included
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  #253  
Old 06-25-2013, 10:29 PM
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wonder If Anyone Picking Ak47 Has Ever Been In A Firefight With Either Lol..... That Being Said Ar More Ammo Lighter More Modular Hella Easy To Maintain Unless Youre Retarded And 556 Is Much MorE available
I cant get what I shot in the Marines.3rd 11th.
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  #254  
Old 06-25-2013, 10:42 PM
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These 'bug out' discussions always degenerate in to isolated gun trade-offs and preferences rather than looking at the mission.
It seem that in most scenarios in which bugging out (or bugging in or inching or whatever) is required has an extremely low likelihood of requiring the use of any weapons no less a battle rifle or carbine.
It's far more likely that the pack carrying bug-outer is out of shape, carrying more weight that he or she should and thus has to focus on minimizing weight and simplifying their carrying and movement tasks and efficiency.
I would thus recommend that any selection should be dominated by weight versus firepower with little concern about the vagaries of the reliability or 'stopping power' of said rifle and round.
In this case, I'd likely focus on a .22LR (for food not defense) but since defense is part of this thread, I'd likely focus on the lightest, stripped down AR I could create. The rounds/mags are lighter and the carbine can likely be brought down to a lower weight as well.
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  #255  
Old 06-25-2013, 11:47 PM
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10.5 Inch Sbr baby
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  #256  
Old 06-26-2013, 7:56 AM
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These 'bug out' discussions always degenerate in to isolated gun trade-offs and preferences rather than looking at the mission.
B
You got it. Anybody who gets stuck in this debate has completely taken their mind off what needs to be done.

Anonymous Patriot: I'll address this directly to you just so there's no doubt that I'm talking to you. " If you did actually serve then thanks for your service. "
But I don't really care about that.

Let's let's say you did operate with several 7.62x39 rounds in your system with you ( bleeding out... ) Is that something that you plan on doing for SHTF in America?

I'd really like to know that you think that BLEEDING out while simply moving around never mind being engaged in a fight is something that can be done by yourself or anyone who gets shot by any caliber with ease.

If you were not openly bleeding out then you didn't sustain a serious gunshot wound. But hey, whatever floats your boat, man. Tell you what. If you can afford it, I recommend you purchase both platforms.

Btw, There are a LOT of veterans on this site but most of us don't have to parade what we did overseas to impress the board.

I want to see some bloody pictures so send me a PM. Seriously, I want to see them. For a 3rd time, I'm not looking to critique the AR-15 here. I own both like a LOT of people on this site. What am I after is hearing what you have to say about sustaining a serious Gunshot wound (s) that causes an individual to bleed profusely yet him still being able to fight with the same effectiveness.

Okay anybody AK or AR who believes that deserves to believe that going forward.

RBA
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  #257  
Old 06-26-2013, 8:07 AM
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I find it funny how people say that the 5.56 is a weak round and they can probably keep running and gunning even with a bunch of 5.56 round stuck to them. One round of 5.56 to the leg and I am sure you're out of the fight. One to the head and you're definitely out of the fight. I'll bite and post this pic, I wonder if he thought the round was weak?:

NSFW and VERY graphic!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...0ba086e1b1.jpg
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  #258  
Old 06-26-2013, 8:26 AM
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I find it funny how people say that the 5.56 is a weak round and they can probably keep running and gunning even with a bunch of 5.56 round stuck to them. One round of 5.56 to the leg and I am sure you're out of the fight. One to the head and you're definitely out of the fight. I'll bite and post this pic, I wonder if he thought the round was weak?:

NSFW and VERY graphic!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...0ba086e1b1.jpg
I find it even funnier that people who dispute the claims that 5.56 is a weak round have no real world experience with it.

You posted a picture of a guy who got shot in the head and somehow proved your point? Nothing there said what caliber it was and from my experience that doesn't look anywhere near 5.56. I have a picture of a guy who got stitched three times across his forehead with 5.56. His entire face is still intact and just the back of his head was blown out. Even so, if you get hit in the head your chances of making it through are slim to none. The 5.56 works great if you hit them in the head or spine, just like any other round.

Countless combat vets say the round sucks from their experience. It's not that it won't do the job, it's that it takes a while to do the job. There's a reason we train to dump our mags into bodies and double tap the heads of anyone we see.

If that's not enough, one of the most decorated ODD members and Chris Kyle have both said the round is weak and not ideal for human targets.
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  #259  
Old 06-26-2013, 8:26 AM
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How about if people take whatever they have and train/practice with it?

I am much more fearful of a motivated and trained rifleman with (insert weapon here) than I am of a bunch of couch potato shtf theorists, no matter what they are armed with.
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  #260  
Old 06-26-2013, 8:36 AM
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I find it even funnier that people who dispute the claims that 5.56 is a weak round have no real world experience with it.

You posted a picture of a guy who got shot in the head and somehow proved your point? Nothing there said what caliber it was and from my experience that doesn't look anywhere near 5.56. I have a picture of a guy who got stitched three times across his forehead with 5.56. His entire face is still intact and just the back of his head was blown out. Even so, if you get hit in the head your chances of making it through are slim to none. The 5.56 works great if you hit them in the head or spine, just like any other round.

Countless combat vets say the round sucks from their experience. It's not that it won't do the job, it's that it takes a while to do the job. There's a reason we train to dump our mags into bodies and double tap the heads of anyone we see.

If that's not enough, one of the most decorated ODD members and Chris Kyle have both said the round is weak and not ideal for human targets.

It was in Mexico vs a fight with the Federales (who only use ARs) and Cartels. Same thing goes for the AK round. I was watching a documentary where a group of Cartel hit men stormed into the wrong house and blasted everybody with AKs. A boy was shot 9 times and still managed to survive. Does that mean the AKs round is weak and useless? I mean 9 times and didn't die? If it was ARs they had used I bet you'd say "that's the reason 5.56 are weak". I don't think so, I believe it all has to do with where you place your shots. Tons of people have been killed by the 5.56, if it was so useless the Russians would still be using the 7.62x39 but only 3rd world countries do because it's cheap.

And I don't need real world experience to come to the conclusion that getting shot with a 5.56 will NOT be like getting hit with a BB gun regardless of where it hits you.
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  #261  
Old 06-26-2013, 8:51 AM
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Originally Posted by The Right to Bear Arms View Post
You got it. Anybody who gets stuck in this debate has completely taken their mind off what needs to be done.

Anonymous Patriot: I'll address this directly to you just so there's no doubt that I'm talking to you. " If you did actually serve then thanks for your service. "
But I don't really care about that.

Let's let's say you did operate with several 7.62x39 rounds in your system with you ( bleeding out... ) Is that something that you plan on doing for SHTF in America?

I'd really like to know that you think that BLEEDING out while simply moving around never mind being engaged in a fight is something that can be done by yourself or anyone who gets shot by any caliber with ease.

If you were not openly bleeding out then you didn't sustain a serious gunshot wound. But hey, whatever floats your boat, man. Tell you what. If you can afford it, I recommend you purchase both platforms.

Btw, There are a LOT of veterans on this site but most of us don't have to parade what we did overseas to impress the board.

I want to see some bloody pictures so send me a PM. Seriously, I want to see them. For a 3rd time, I'm not looking to critique the AR-15 here. I own both like a LOT of people on this site. What am I after is hearing what you have to say about sustaining a serious Gunshot wound (s) that causes an individual to bleed profusely yet him still being able to fight with the same effectiveness.

Okay anybody AK or AR who believes that deserves to believe that going forward.

RBA
was only trying to show a point not brag or parade about most of the time I do not bring up service and no I etsed in January I am past that time of my life and do not ever plan or hope to even be aimed at again also its not easy by any aspect of the word but adrenaline can make you do some pretty amazing **** as for the pictures I have quite a few on my old droid x I'm sure I could put on the computer and as for shtf in the united states depending on circumstances I would be leaving the country with my family but I would choose an AR with a 10.5 inch SBR upper very light and I can carry quite a bit of ammunition without worrying about weighing me down not to mention very easily concealed if its not a wrol situation among other reasons
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  #262  
Old 06-26-2013, 9:04 AM
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It was in Mexico vs a fight with the Federales (who only use ARs) and Cartels. Same thing goes for the AK round. I was watching a documentary where a group of Cartel hit men stormed into the wrong house and blasted everybody with AKs. A boy was shot 9 times and still managed to survive. Does that mean the AKs round is weak and useless? I mean 9 times and didn't die? If it was ARs they had used I bet you'd say "that's the reason 5.56 are weak". I don't think so, I believe it all has to do with where you place your shots. Tons of people have been killed by the 5.56, if it was so useless the Russians would still be using the 7.62x39 but only 3rd world countries do because it's cheap.

And I don't need real world experience to come to the conclusion that getting shot with a 5.56 will NOT be like getting hit with a BB gun regardless of where it hits you.
I don't know a lot about Mexican Federales, but I have seen videos of them using much more than M16s (pretty sure they don't use ARs). I just did a Google search and found several different weapons they use, to include M60s. The picture still doesn't prove anything, including it was a 5.56 that did that. Even so, showing someone getting shot in the head doesn't prove a round is powerful or weak or whatever. A shot to the head will be game over the majority of the time, regardless of caliber.

I never said the 5.56 is useless and that 7.62x39 is the best round and will drop in one hit. You can be taken down with one round with 5.56 if placed well and survive several hits of 7.62x39. I said getting hit with 7.62x39 will usually put you out of action where as you can usually score several hits with 5.56 and not really have immediate effect. These are generalizations, but of course exceptions exist.

A lot of people have died from 5.56 yes, but if the US military and other Western countries equipped their militaries with another round we could say the same about that one. The 7.62x39 round has many weaknesses, but lack of power is not one of them. It's not very accurate outside of 300 meters by most shooters.

No one has said getting hit with 5.56 will be like getting hit with a BB gun, I don't know where you got that from. I own several ARs and love the platform but it is not a powerful round.
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  #263  
Old 06-26-2013, 9:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano View Post
How about if people take whatever they have and train/practice with it?

I am much more fearful of a motivated and trained rifleman with (insert weapon here) than I am of a bunch of couch potato shtf theorists, no matter what they are armed with.
And we are all in danger ( Vet, Leo, Civ ) of becoming the couch potato theorist without practice. It doesn't matter what the " resume " says...
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  #264  
Old 06-26-2013, 9:29 AM
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What an original topic!!
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  #265  
Old 06-26-2013, 10:21 AM
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I don't know a lot about Mexican Federales, but I have seen videos of them using much more than M16s (pretty sure they don't use ARs). I just did a Google search and found several different weapons they use, to include M60s. The picture still doesn't prove anything, including it was a 5.56 that did that. Even so, showing someone getting shot in the head doesn't prove a round is powerful or weak or whatever. A shot to the head will be game over the majority of the time, regardless of caliber.

I never said the 5.56 is useless and that 7.62x39 is the best round and will drop in one hit. You can be taken down with one round with 5.56 if placed well and survive several hits of 7.62x39. I said getting hit with 7.62x39 will usually put you out of action where as you can usually score several hits with 5.56 and not really have immediate effect. These are generalizations, but of course exceptions exist.

A lot of people have died from 5.56 yes, but if the US military and other Western countries equipped their militaries with another round we could say the same about that one. The 7.62x39 round has many weaknesses, but lack of power is not one of them. It's not very accurate outside of 300 meters by most shooters.

No one has said getting hit with 5.56 will be like getting hit with a BB gun, I don't know where you got that from. I own several ARs and love the platform but it is not a powerful round.
Ok, yes they use other weapons but that particular firefight you can see all the Federales ONLY strapped with ARs. I don't know the exact location but there was more pictures where you can see the Federales and all were carrying ARs. They don't use M16s, they are a police force. Here on average, police don't use M16s either, they use semi auto ARs. And you can see a small entry wound on his left arm as well and that entry wound looks rather small.

The picture was just meant to show you the damage the 5.56 does to human flesh. I mean a regular .22 would not burst open a mans face. You can clearly see a very small entry wound at the back of his head and then the tumbling effect of the 5.56. I am sure this is why the Russians went ahead and dropped the 7.62x39 for the 5.45.

Yes, the 5.56 won't break bricks in half like the x39, but again it was never intended for that. It was intended for human flesh. Although I have never shot at anybody with a 5.56, I am sure if I did they would be on the ground rolling in pain. We are human beings, we are so fragile. I mean you can easily slip and break an arm or leg.

Last edited by shooter556; 06-26-2013 at 10:24 AM..
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  #266  
Old 06-26-2013, 10:47 AM
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AK
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  #267  
Old 06-26-2013, 11:23 AM
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OK, moving on to the next topic:

What is your favorite color?
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:15 PM
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Ok, yes they use other weapons but that particular firefight you can see all the Federales ONLY strapped with ARs. I don't know the exact location but there was more pictures where you can see the Federales and all were carrying ARs. They don't use M16s, they are a police force. Here on average, police don't use M16s either, they use semi auto ARs. And you can see a small entry wound on his left arm as well and that entry wound looks rather small.

The picture was just meant to show you the damage the 5.56 does to human flesh. I mean a regular .22 would not burst open a mans face. You can clearly see a very small entry wound at the back of his head and then the tumbling effect of the 5.56. I am sure this is why the Russians went ahead and dropped the 7.62x39 for the 5.45.

Yes, the 5.56 won't break bricks in half like the x39, but again it was never intended for that. It was intended for human flesh. Although I have never shot at anybody with a 5.56, I am sure if I did they would be on the ground rolling in pain. We are human beings, we are so fragile. I mean you can easily slip and break an arm or leg.
The wound on his arm is characteristic from nearly all 5.56 wounds I have seen. If you agree that is 5.56 why is half his head gone? I already told you I have several pictures of guys hit with 5.56, including one who was stitched across the forehead three times and it looks nothing like the one in that photo. That looks much worse than what 7.62x39 does as well and why I said it looks like 7.62x51 or larger. Just because you only saw ARs in the picture doesn't mean someone with a larger caliber rifle wasn't present and made the shot.

Your entire argument is invalid since you admit to never having experience with the 5.56 and human targets. Don't take my word for it, I'm just an idiot with a keyboard. Take the word of countless combat vets and several high profile SOF operators, including ODD members Howe, Gordan, Shughart and others. Take America's deadliest sniper, Chris Kyle's (RIP) word for it than the round is weak and does not do a good job.

The "tumbling" effect simply doesn't happen. The round moves too fast and makes a very neat and clean hole in someone. Take your index finger and thumb and pinch your shirt. Pull it away from you and let go. That's what it looks like when someone gets hit with one. Think of how small the round is. It is moving too fast to tumble or create an extensive wound cavity. If you're shooting at 500 pound sumo wrestlers, I'm sure the round would start to tumble inside of them, but your average person (especially since the wars we have fought since the introduction of the round are against skinny people) simply doesn't have enough mass to get the round to do what it's intended for.
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  #269  
Old 06-26-2013, 12:51 PM
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OP, These types of threads are very entertaining for me. Thanks for this one!

Back on topic: To choose one gun will be difficult for most because they own too many different platforms. Additionally, the choice will be driven by the type of 'SHTF', the person's geographical location and what purpose the gun is needed for.

For example, I live in a city and don't foresee any shot past 50 yards under any circumstances, so an AR would be more than plenty. In fact, there would probably not be any lengthy gun battles either. So I'd probably take a shotgun even though it's not on your list.
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  #270  
Old 06-27-2013, 4:51 PM
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I have kinda been thinking about this lately. My thought as of lately is concealment and getting out of the city is biggest concern. AR is just kinda too long(yes I have one). Something that folds is better IMO. AK? Well I figure scrounging 5.56 would be more plentiful. So my thought is a Saiga 5.56 or a Galil. Both fold or can be made to fold(and can fire that way), both battle proven and both fire 5.56.

If I was out of the city and out in the sticks already I would probably choose a .22

Last edited by Norcalkid; 06-27-2013 at 5:01 PM..
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  #271  
Old 06-27-2013, 5:36 PM
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I choose the AK47.

Biggest downside is how heavy your loadout can get. On the upside I am a big guy and it really is a none issue for me.

The people saying that they will be able to get parts and ammo for AR15s need to turn off The Walking Dead and wake up.

In a SHTF scenario the store is not open. You get ammo by trading or taking it from dead bodies. Since I plan to avoid getting in a fire fight I choose to just plan ahead and have ammo and guns at multiple locations so that I do not have to kill for such items.

Its the real world. You don't just walk along the street and find ammo and parts. If you kill for it you better be quick cause all that noise you just made attracts others looking to take what you just got.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:51 PM
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Whichever one happens to have a barrel shroud shoulder thing that folds down.
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
OP, These types of threads are very entertaining for me. Thanks for this one!

Back on topic: To choose one gun will be difficult for most because they own too many different platforms. Additionally, the choice will be driven by the type of 'SHTF', the person's geographical location and what purpose the gun is needed for.

For example, I live in a city and don't foresee any shot past 50 yards under any circumstances, so an AR would be more than plenty. In fact, there would probably not be any lengthy gun battles either. So I'd probably take a shotgun even though it's not on your list.
Squidwards right, the topic did say "1 gun" and a shotgun is very versatile.
A shotgun with bandoleers
Imagine 3 bandoleers that hold 50 rds. 1 with Bird, 1 with 00Buck and 1 with slugs! You will be the fan.
You can break away from the city and hunt if needed.
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  #274  
Old 06-28-2013, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcalkid View Post
I have kinda been thinking about this lately. My thought as of lately is concealment and getting out of the city is biggest concern. AR is just kinda too long(yes I have one). Something that folds is better IMO. AK? Well I figure scrounging 5.56 would be more plentiful. So my thought is a Saiga 5.56 or a Galil. Both fold or can be made to fold(and can fire that way), both battle proven and both fire 5.56.

If I was out of the city and out in the sticks already I would probably choose a .22
How handy would this be for you? The Ruger-10-22 Takedown. ( I'm probably going to get one for myself )

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Old 07-08-2013, 4:11 PM
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As far as being in the land of .223/5.56, how about a .223 Saiga, modded for AR/M16 mag ? is that doeble? Wouldn't that be kind of best of both world's vs Piston based AR?
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  #276  
Old 07-08-2013, 7:26 PM
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AR-15 because that's what I shoot; having a scope and Aimpoint help a lot. Hypothetically, if the SHTF, the AR pistol finds a lower with a stock, and becomes the CQC weapon. My goal would be not to ever be in spray and pray range.
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  #277  
Old 07-12-2013, 10:46 AM
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By and far, my AK. It's proven to be more reliable than my current Colt.

If I was comparing it to any of my old M&P's (which were %100 reliable), then I'd choose the AR due to weight.
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  #278  
Old 07-12-2013, 11:49 AM
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AK. All day.
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  #279  
Old 07-12-2013, 1:59 PM
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I would take my 9mm XD9 and my Remington 870 and here is why.

I'd leave my ARs at home. Why because according to experts above the round is underpowered and useless.

I'd leave my AK at home. Why because the zombies would just stand 301 yrds away and make funny faces at me since AKs only shoot 300yrds.

I'd sell my AK ammo to the guys above who think AK is better than AR
I'd sell my AR ammo to the guys above who think AR is better than AK

I'd take that money and by me some more 9mm and 12GA.

I would repeat this cycle over and over and over again until the aliens land and tell us once and for all . . . which is better AK vs AR.

These threads are too much fun . . .

"Yeah my buddy knows a dude who saw a video of a Mexican Cop shoot a bad guy 48 times with an AK and the guy walked away"

"Yeah well I got shot 17 times with an AR and thought is was just bee stings and shot back with my AK and killed 9 dudes with a single shot"
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  #280  
Old 07-12-2013, 7:39 PM
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Since I made this post ive shot my ak and ar alot . And I have to say my ak even though its heavier the energy it has when it connects is Pretty powerful. I can shoot it accurately at 350 yards never had any more room then that to shoot so I couldn't say if its accurate at farther ranges.the ar is extremely precision on the other hand and the bullet travels so fast it doesn't do much damage to the target as to were the ak is devastating in my experience.im a .45 over 9mm kinda guy so the ak would be my go to
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Last edited by glock_monster; 07-12-2013 at 7:56 PM..
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