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  #1  
Old 03-06-2013, 8:49 AM
Whiterabbit Whiterabbit is offline
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Default Vortex Viper PST zero stop is inconsistent

Hi Guys,

Any of you notice the zero stop inconsistent on your PST? I set mine so that it stops at, say, 8 MOA adjustment on the way around, and when I re-zero, it'll stop at 10, 6, 4, etc. Wild.

This isnt normally a problem, but it does result in a lack of trust on the adjustment.

So now, I come back from the range and re-set the zero having "lost" mentally how many times I've rotated the turret. It stops at 1 MOA. So now I am left wondering, did the shims shift thick, so I need to re-set the shims to get that last MOA to re-zero? or did they settle SO much, that I've gone nearly all the way round again and need to add another shim?

Now I have to go back out to the range and fire a shot to confirm.

This is not a good way to solidify reliability!

Am I the only one who notices this? are my shims simply not installed as effectively as I could? Who else has dealt with this? Is there a solution? Is there a way I can at least have it reset within 1-2 MOA every time?

Thanks guys,

-S
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  #2  
Old 03-06-2013, 9:20 AM
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Not sure but it sounds like you don't have enough shims in there. Where they bent at all when you installed them?
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Old 03-06-2013, 9:23 AM
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No, they were/are all flat. Do you have experience with the PST zero stop? Specifically, owning a PST, installing, AND using the zero stop? Or are you making an educated brainstorm suggestion?

Thanks,

-S
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  #4  
Old 03-06-2013, 10:55 AM
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I do.
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  #5  
Old 03-06-2013, 11:02 AM
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have you ever experienced this? what kind of variance do you see on your PST?
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:16 AM
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I have not had any variances. Its not a mechanical Zero Stop so it should not change once its set correctly. Which leads me to think for some reason you dont have enough shims. But I could be wrong.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:22 AM
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From a guy who doesnt own a PST, nor do I shoot extreme ranges... Walk me through exactly what you are seeing.

Are you re-confirming your zero, or do you have to re-zero, because from what it sounds like to me you are saying your zero is shifting wildly.

When you think it should come back and stop at 8, and it goes to 10, did you confirm it was zeroed then? Or did the shim move and you were 2 off?

Either your zero is shifting or the shims are. The only way to tell which is happening is making sure you are not miscounting and also to verify if the zero has shifted. A hard stop is a hard stop...if you can click passed it...its not a hard stop...LOL

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  #8  
Old 03-06-2013, 11:36 AM
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I was reading the manual and it said going past zero is normal. The CRS is not a hard stop.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:41 AM
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His problem is not that he is going past Zero. His problem is that he goes past zero at different marks each time. Its not at the same spot every time. But this time its right at 1 MOA which causes him not know if he is low 11 MOA or High 1MOA.

Last edited by Iloveguns; 03-06-2013 at 11:48 AM..
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:48 AM
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oic....
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  #11  
Old 03-06-2013, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iloveguns View Post
I have not had any variances. Its not a mechanical Zero Stop so it should not change once its set correctly. Which leads me to think for some reason you dont have enough shims. But I could be wrong.
First time around, I thought so too. So I put an extra shim in there when it was especially low. Then the pendulum swung the other way and I couldn't index to the original zero and had to pull the shim back out.

So you haven't had any variances, does that mean in your case that you stop at the EXACT same spot every time? accurate to the 1/4 moa?
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  #12  
Old 03-06-2013, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelogic View Post
I was reading the manual and it said going past zero is normal. The CRS is not a hard stop.
+1

The shims there so you don’t overshoot by another full rotation.

Mine goes over… but I know it doesn’t go past that, and just zero it on the mark.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:48 PM
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But yours clearly is not consistent ether ExtremeX, is it.
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  #14  
Old 03-06-2013, 1:29 PM
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I mistyped earlier by how much… Ill check that later when I get home. It’s not by much… There is no way I could rotate the knob by one full turn.

The scope is functioning correctly… that’s one of the downsides with a shim stop vs the zero stop. It was part of Vortex value engineering when the scope was designed.

I have two PST scopes and both of them act the same way.

If you want less travel, add another shim.
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Old 03-06-2013, 1:47 PM
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you miss my question. It's not that it passes through zero, its that it does not stop at the same point. You originally said 2-3moa past. Doesnt matter if it is 2-3 MOA past, 5-6 MOA past, or 9-10 MOA past, you are implying your variance is 1moa. My point is that on my scope it is apparently in the neighborhood of 2-10 MOA past, meaning a variance of 8+ MOA or more. That's not very good at all.

If it were 4-7 MOA past (3moa variance) then it would be no problem. Just put enough shims in there to make sure within limits its never close to one full rotation (nowhere near the zero point).

It's just that on my scope it stops at such a wide range that either I risk not being able to return to zero, or it overshoots by nearly one full rotation (sometimes). It's just not consistent.

I assume its operator error (didn't put the shims in properly?) but without positive confirmation of the root cause, I can't apply a correction. Part of finding the root cause is finding out if anyone else has the issue. If not, then what are you guys doing that I am not?

I'll bet your scope doesn't stop at the same spot exactly every time you cycle it. Iloveguns says he has no variance, I asked for a confirmation of that. He'll get back to me when he can. But since you already said before editing that you were 2-3 MOA past, I'll bet you have variance too, even if the range is not as severe as mine.

Ultimately, I'm trying to get my variance tighter also. Adding or subtracing shims has not helped variance, merely where the limits fall.
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  #16  
Old 03-06-2013, 1:53 PM
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I said MOA when I should have said 2-3 clicks… which is why I deleted it, and like I said, I will check it when I get home because I have actually confused myself.

My shims did settle after I installed them on my 1-4x… I actually cleaned the shims on my 4-16x before I installed them and the results were better. After they settle Ill fine tune it.

This is the nature of the shim style is that it’s not always going to stop in the exact same place. I knew that before I bought the scope. The entire purpose of the shims is to prevent you from getting lost in the dial, not to stop at the exact same place every time… This is normal operation for the optic.

If it bothers you that much, you should buy a higher end scope with a real zero stop… The PST is still a budget scope… but it’s a good scope.
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  #17  
Old 03-06-2013, 1:59 PM
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I get what’s happening in your scenario… unfortunately Vortex ships all the shims with the exact same thickness… 0.008”

You should call them up and see if they have others that vary in thickness to allow you to fine tune it better.

Personally I’m just happy that’s I don’t overshoot rotation into the next revolution, which is what the intent of the shim system was in the first place.
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  #18  
Old 03-06-2013, 2:19 PM
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I'm still not being clear. when I installed, the turret stopped halfway through the range. That's fine. Previously, I saw what I thought was settling and added shim. Later, it "unsettled" and didnt return to zero. So I removed the shim. Changed loads and reset everything, have learned not to add that extra shim after settling. Now it seems to have settled again because it stopped near zero. Or did it unsettle and I'm not quite making it to my original zero? I don't know. I need to shoot a round to confirm which way it went. This variance is what is bothering me.

I dont need it to stop in the exact same place, just a reduction in variance.

I AM getting lost in the dial, the shims don't seem to prevent this in my case!

But the real bottom line, is your variance is 2-3 clicks? that is FAR more repeatable than my scope. Far more. I may be asking you more questions about how you have the shims in there. maybe mine are rotating? Or maybe they are supposed to and mine arent. but what I do know is that we differ in consistency by almost 10x.
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  #19  
Old 03-07-2013, 1:09 PM
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  #20  
Old 03-07-2013, 1:17 PM
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Interesting thread as I am looking to upgrade from a Millet TRS to a PST FFP 4-16x50. I think I will tag this.


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  #21  
Old 03-07-2013, 1:30 PM
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I love how these are the differences between $1200 glass and $3000 glass. Things like that should be perfect at any price point.
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Old 03-24-2013, 2:38 PM
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Just watching, as this vortex is on my list.
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  #23  
Old 03-24-2013, 5:25 PM
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just tried mine .. it stops at the same point everytime . but im not shooting by round by round . its possible that its rotating like u said

Last edited by G38xOC; 03-24-2013 at 5:27 PM..
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  #24  
Old 03-24-2013, 6:13 PM
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I check mine too but never got back to this thread…

It’s by a couple clicks (not MOA)… but it stays where it’s supposed to.

I think I know what might be happening in your scenario… did you tighten all the screws on the turrets correctly?

Looks like there is a chance after the zero stop bottomed out the turret cap was just sliding. If you don’t tighten the cap tight enough, it would keep moving, but it won’t “click”.

You might want to confirm that, and if that’s not the case, might be about time to send the scope into Vortex because your experience does not mirror mine.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:59 PM
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nope, definitely always clicks present. That is too obvious.
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Old 03-25-2013, 1:35 AM
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RTFM (read the f...... manual) The shims do not bring it back to zero. You rotate till it stops then turn the turret back to 0. As someone mentioned it's only to prevent you from rotating another turn past your zero. It doesn't matter where it stops as long as you rotate the turret back to 0 you are zeroed.
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Old 03-25-2013, 7:28 AM
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I'm not sure you read the thread....

(I'm of course being facetious. Of course you didn't understand the thread at all if you posted that!)
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Old 03-25-2013, 8:05 AM
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I just bought a pst but haven't put shims in yet. You staggered them right? I wonder if the turret is a bit jacked up?
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  #29  
Old 03-27-2013, 2:58 PM
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I notice in mine PST the zero stop will wander if I turn it hard enough. The key word is hard enough. I have to be consistent if I want to have the same stop each and every time. Also I notice that at different temperature I will have a different zero stop as well. This may be due to and metal expanding and contracting. With the turret have very fine adjustment and little expansion or contraction on the brass shim will definitely have an effect on the zero stop.
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  #30  
Old 04-20-2013, 11:35 PM
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i know this is old'ish... i'm about to put the shims too... the instructions say put as many w/o forcing it in, right? a little space is oK and alternate the direction. (so like N, S, E, W type alteration?) .

below is the text from the instructions. so i guess it'll turn past zero but doesn't say whether it'll be variable.

Once the CRS shims are installed after sight-in, the elevation dial will
stop turning shortly past the original zero point when being returned
(turning clockwise direction) from a temporary elevation adjustment.
The shooter can then turn the elevation knob a partial turn in a
counter-clockwise direction until the zero reference and radius bar are
correctly aligned—achieving the original zero point.


also a Q for those that used shims... is it because you are reloading and know the performance already? i'm not there yet and will be using either priv partizan 168gr or black hills 168gr or 175 gr. so wondering if it makes sense to even have a zero stop for me vs. just noting where it is just like everyone else w/o a zero stop i figure.
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  #31  
Old 04-21-2013, 6:44 AM
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yes it overshoots. Tell us if it overshoots the same every time.

I need to qualify "variable". At home or between shots, the zero stop is quite sufficiently repeatable. It's under recoil (338 lapua, and I often shoot with no muzzle brake) that I notice the zero stop position significantly shifts.

So this isn't repeatable at home. Only on the firing line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by high_revs View Post
also a Q for those that used shims... is it because you are reloading and know the performance already? i'm not there yet and will be using either priv partizan 168gr or black hills 168gr or 175 gr. so wondering if it makes sense to even have a zero stop for me vs. just noting where it is just like everyone else w/o a zero stop i figure.
I reload for financial prudence, but it wouldn't matter if I reloaded or only shot factory ammo. I'm a "one load, one rifle" kind of guy and follow this even with guns I do not reload for. So when I set my 100 yard zero and a zero stop, it's not meant to change. Not until I can't buy nosler E-tips. anymore.

We do not know the performance before hand, we add the shims after sighting in.

I wanted a 100 yard zero, so I had NO shims in when I started, and zeroed at 100 yards. Then I pulled the cap THEN I added the shims. Then put the cap back on rotated to zero, all without making ANY adjustments. Then I turned away a partial rotation, then rotated down, passing my 100 yard zero, till the dial stopped. That confirmed that I didn't go 15 MOA past my 100 yard zero.

Last edited by Whiterabbit; 04-21-2013 at 6:48 AM..
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  #32  
Old 04-21-2013, 7:08 AM
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Here is what vortex told me when I called before I put in the shims. 1) zero rifle at desired range. 2) remove the elevation cap straight up. 3) install the shims, there should be a gap. Do not fill up the space, the last one should not be tight. 4) reinstall the cap so the 0 is lined up with the opening.

When returning to zero, you will go past. Turn the knob back until it stops and then rotate forward until 0 is lined up. Zero stop is inconsistent where it stops, but will always be on the original rotation (i.e. the next 0 forward will be your 0). The stop is not meant to be the end, it is meant to stop you from rotating past the revolution where your 0 was set. Metal shims expand and contract with temp changes, they are not meant to provide a consistent stop at the same exact number, they provide a consistent stop at the same revolution of the turret.
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  #33  
Old 04-21-2013, 7:38 PM
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Without reading anything written here... I will explain simply...

Because it's NOT a REAL ZERO STOP.

Using shims to create a zero stop by tension does not equal a zero stop. Only close to it.

Real Zero Stops start at around the $1500 mark for riflescopes.
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Old 04-21-2013, 9:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HK Dave View Post
Without reading anything written here... I will explain simply...

Because it's NOT a REAL ZERO STOP.

Using shims to create a zero stop by tension does not equal a zero stop. Only close to it.

Real Zero Stops start at around the $1500 mark for riflescopes.
you didn't even read the OP.
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Old 04-22-2013, 6:47 AM
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Just read the OP and the posts that followed. My response is the same. It's not a real zero stop or rather a hard stop. It uses a tension system derived from shims that change consistency depending oh how it rotates or where one shim is relative to another.

It will always be inconsistent.

Real zero stops start at $1500.

From what I remember of my PST, it wasn't THAT inconsistent though. I remember it being off by 1 click or 2. Call Vortex, bet they'll take good care of you.
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Last edited by HK Dave; 04-22-2013 at 7:20 AM..
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Old 04-22-2013, 7:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bete Noire View Post
I love how these are the differences between $1200 glass and $3000 glass. Things like that should be perfect at any price point.
Hmm I don't think this is really a fair statement. Vortex went to a different level, trying to stuff everything people wanted into a sub $1K scope. They had to make compromises to make it happen.

At under $1K it "can't" be perfect when its chock full of so many cool options simply because Vortex would lose money on each scope. :P

Now at $3K-4K, it damn well better be perfect out the box without me having to send it back because you're paying for all the top end components.

Case in point, bought a S&B PMII 5-25x56mm... ships to my house and the elevation turret clicks are mushy when compared to the windage and def mushy when compared to my Premiers.

Now I have to ship the POS to the factory to get the detent properly set or repaired... shipping will cost something like $100+ because of insurance.

I love Vortex because if that had happened... even with a sub $1K scope, they'd send me a UPS label to have the scope shipped on their dime.

Gotta love that.

But back to the point... if a Vortex Viper had some inconsistencies, i'd be happy about it and live with it.... although the OPs situation doesn't sound normal if it's inconsistent by more than a few clicks.
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  #37  
Old 05-04-2013, 4:15 PM
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Shims go forward backward forward backward. havent had any problem on mine.

http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/...t-14st-12a.pdf
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Old 05-06-2013, 8:52 PM
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yep did that.

Just checked it tonight. It's accurate to within a couple clicks. Then under simulated recoil, the new stop point can shift a lot. From the 1moa mark to passing the zero and hitting the 9 moa mark that much farther.

Try it. back the dial off one full rotation, simulate recoil (or shoot a round at the range) and see where it returns.

Without that recoil event it stops within a click or two to the same spot every time. With it, who knows where it stops!
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Old 05-06-2013, 9:50 PM
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So why does it go all the way back to the 1 MOA mark? If you zeroed your knobs then to have it go back 8 MOA means there should be enough room for at least one more shim.
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Old 05-07-2013, 7:27 AM
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Because if I put one more shim in there, after it "readjusts" its sero pointunder recoil, I cant get it even back to the original zero.

Remember, the zero stop on my scope shifts absolute stopping point by SEVERAL MOA every time the rifle is fired, if the adjustment is not on the zero (as in, long range shooting). So if I put one more shim in there and it stops, say, 5 MOA past zero, the next time I shoot, the zero stop might not return to 5 MOA past zero but rather stop 2 MOA BEFORE reaching zero.

That's the problem.
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