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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #161  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
Well...isn't one of the exclusions in the law that says it is OK to carry in your place of business?
.
Those very words were uttered by the defense lawyer representing the San Diego sheriff in oral arguments Dec 6th. those very words
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  #162  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Kappy View Post
I am aware of the .380s characteristics. I carry one when my 1911 is too obvious or heavy. The .380 as a caliber is not the central issue, although it has far less going for it in regards to penetration and stopping power compared to the 9mm.

My point was more about the various .380 platforms out there. Bersa, Walther, CZ, Colt, etc. the .380s available all seem to have one particular commonality: a short sight radius. A non-shoot rich environment like a school isn't some place I want to be missing shots. If I were firing at an intruder in my classroom's wing, I stand a good chance of a errant round finding its way into another classroom.

Now... We already have stipulated that a badguy is firing off enough rounds... But even one accidental shooting of a kid during that is going to be a bit ugly for us.

Still, I do think teachers should be allowed to carry if they are trained. This guy may or may not have been. Regardless, I have a CCW and will not carry on campus. And I initially got my CCW because I'd received some serious death threats over the phone in my classroom


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If you have a CCW why wouldnt you carry at a school? I read your logic on a round going off and maybe hitting a child, but that being said isent it better to have protection to protect children and yourself than lay on the floor and wait for the shooter to come in and shoot away with no resistance? I work at a school (and a CCW) and I am very familiar with lock down etc. Just my opinion. And Im glad in CA if you have a CCW staff and others can carry on campus. It makes it safer.
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  #163  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ll-Rafael-ll View Post
A perfectly normal, good, law abiding citizen carrying a gun to class for the protection of his students should, God forbid, a criminal try to hurt them.
No CCW, in violation of concealed weapons laws, gun possession in a school zone, firearms violation of school policy.

And please tell me about this "law abiding" of which you speak?

The law is the law, does not mean I agree with it or like it. Nonetheless it is the law.
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  #164  
Old 02-17-2013, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Knucklehead.
Maybe so.
He failed the "shut up" test like BWEISE said.

That doesn't make him wrong. At all.
The law is wrong. He is right.
California's Jim Crow era CCW law is wrong.
Gun Free School Zone (state and federal) are wrong.
CC/OC/transportation laws are wrong.
He isn't the crazy one.
I hope he has a CCW denial on file. I hope he fights it. I hope he wins.

He might have been stupid, but I personally can't hold it against someone exercising their rights regardless of what the law says. And flaunting that he was doing so is a first amendment issue, in my mind.

All politics, PR, and legal issues aside. I back him.
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  #165  
Old 02-17-2013, 12:24 PM
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I didn't read the entire thread, and I skimmed the article. If I missed a mention of the teacher having an LTC, please correct me, but I am assuming he didn't, since he was arrested. His actions indicate he's irresponsible. Even if he'd had a license, the risk to benefit ratio of an employee carrying at a school--absent special circumstances and the knowledge and support of administration--is unfavorable.
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  #166  
Old 02-17-2013, 12:25 PM
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Yea, bonehead all the way. His type doesn't help.
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  #167  
Old 02-17-2013, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanAnchors View Post
someone exercising their rights regardless of what the law says
The law provides an interpretation of what your rights are.
You want to dispute that?
Then do it in court and get the laws changed.

The more people play stupid cowboy stunts like this and
the quicker they will get us to a point where firearms have been regulated
to the point of total non viable to own and possess, or worse yet a
successful repeal of the 2A.

Smarten up.

The whole open carry thing just makes us look bad, (oh but I am exercising my rights! ) the illegal concealed carry that this guy did just makes gun owners look worse.
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  #168  
Old 02-17-2013, 6:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Grampz View Post
Can't do this...

California Penal Code Section 626.10

(a) (1) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (shortened) who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, knife having a blade longer than 2 1/2 inches, folding knife with a blade that locks into place, razor with an unguarded blade, taser, or stun gun, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 244.5, (shortened) upon the grounds of, or within, any public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.
Pepper spray, on the other hand, is perfectly fine.
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  #169  
Old 02-18-2013, 4:23 AM
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Originally Posted by loose_electron View Post
No CCW, in violation of concealed weapons laws, gun possession in a school zone, firearms violation of school policy.

And please tell me about this "law abiding" of which you speak?

The law is the law, does not mean I agree with it or like it. Nonetheless it is the law.
The faculty at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. were law abiding.

With regard to concealed carry, the dynamics a little different regarding the law. Doctrine of Competing Harms states that breaking the law is acceptable , if in so doing grave bodily harm or death was prevented which would have occurred had the law been followed. Its one of the reasons why prosecutors drop self defense cases involving illegally acquired firearms.

That Doctrine doesn't fly when you're speeding to work and endangering the public, or when you fail to file a tax form on time. It does when violating the law on carry bans supersedes the bodily harm you can incur by obeying the law.
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  #170  
Old 02-18-2013, 7:40 AM
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In the 2010-11 school year, there were nearly 99,000 K-12 public schools operating in the US. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the number right now is within ± 5% of that figure. We'll use the low end of the range if you want, and round it off to 94,000. Let's also define a "school shooting" for our purposes here as being an incident in which the presence of an armed staff member could reasonably be assumed to have a decent chance of stopping the threat and reducing the loss of life (let's exclude drive-by and other shootings outside the school, shootings in which a suspect fled the scene immediately after a very quick assault, etc.). How many of those incidents were there in the previous 12 months? Let's estimate on the high end, just to be as fair as possible to the San Diego school ninja support crowd; say, 50? As I've defined such incidents above, that number is high, but I'll use it. Fifty incidents out of 94,000 schools (I'm leaving out private schools for convenience). 50/94,000 = 0.053% of schools in which an armed staff member might have been able to effectively intervene and save lives in the previous year.

Some of you may argue a deterrent effect. I think that's a very fuzzy area, since many or even most of these sickos who shoot up schools are suicidal. I doubt that the knowledge that there may be armed staff member/s would deter many of 'em.

Now let's look at the down side to this. First, whether you'd like to admit it or not, there are a certain percentage of LTC holders who demonstrate less than stellar judgment. Anecdotally speaking, all you have to do is read what some of 'em have posted around here in the last few years. The only thing keeping San Diego School Ninja Dude from being licensed was his county of residence; in many counties, he probably would've been able to get one. That guy's a dumb-*****. What kind of decisions would he have made in an active shooter situation? Fortunately, we won't have to find out, as far as he's concerned, anyway. Remember though, that the chances of ever encountering an active shooter situation in a K-12 school are extremely tiny. The benefit, therefore, even if we were to assume that most armed staff members would exercise sufficiently sound judgment (an extreme assumption), would be very low.

The second part of a benefit/risk assessment is the risk. Can you identify some of the risks involved? I'll hold my thoughts on that for now because I'm curious as to whether anyone else is thinking along similar lines.
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  #171  
Old 02-18-2013, 8:06 AM
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If he had been found out because he stopped a rampaging miscreant, we would be having a very different conversation. This guy's mistake was opening his mouth. Well, that, and staking lives on the performance of a .380.
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  #172  
Old 02-18-2013, 9:05 AM
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Originally Posted by safewaysecurity View Post
Seems to be a lot of anti-gun types responding to the thread.

Do you people even hear yourselves? There was at least one person who posted in this thread that this is their child's teacher and they are great. Would you rather have the teacher be unarmed if a similar case like Sandy Hook occurred? We should all be supporting this man. I doubt he had a CCW and I don't care if he did. I can say with some great level of certainty that if I am ever on a jury I will not vote guilty for someone who is not a violent criminal or evil person who decided simply to exercise their rights. We should be fighting on the side of the teacher not against him.
^THIS!

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Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
If he had a CCW, he would only have been fired. With a CCW you are exempt from PC 626.9.

Any teacher in CA can legally carry in school. It is only the school policy that they cannot. If they do carry and get caught, they get fired, not arrested.
^good to know!

a lot of people "pre-judging" the teacher ... they dont even know what exactly happened

bottom line GFSZ are a joke, this might be a nice big step toward debunking such myth...
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  #173  
Old 02-18-2013, 9:12 AM
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Any guy who illegally brings a gun to work and brags to students about it in order to boost his own ego is NOT likely to possess the mental attributes necessary to respond effectively to any situation more serious than some kid losing his lunch money.
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  #174  
Old 02-18-2013, 9:19 AM
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He went about it wrong, but that is a damn shame. More teachers should be allowed to Carry assuming they keep quite about it.
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  #175  
Old 02-18-2013, 9:20 AM
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Seems to be a lot of anti-gun types responding to the thread....
...We should all be supporting this man. I doubt he had a CCW and I don't care if he did.
Some of you guys crack me up; any nuanced opinion, anything short of "unlimited gun carrying for everyone" is labeled as "anti-gun." That's a pretty simplistic model. I do NOT support a teacher who (a) intentionally breaks the law by bringing a gun on campus without being licensed; and (b) brags about it to 12 year olds. Period. Spin this any way you want, but supporting idiots like Teacher Ninja Dude will do nothing at all to advance gun rights.
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  #176  
Old 02-18-2013, 9:30 AM
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Originally Posted by LooseCannon View Post
He went about it wrong, but that is a damn shame. More teachers should be allowed to Carry assuming they keep quite about it.
They can, with an LTC. District policies may or may not prohibit it, but with an LTC it's legal. I still believe that there's an unfavorable risk to benefit ratio, and in general I am not in favor of it, but neither do I favor rescinding the 626.9 exemption for LTC holders. I would simply like to see licensees exercise sound judgment. Unless you've worked in a large urban or suburban secondary school for a significant period of time, you can't grasp the complexity of the issue. In limited cases under certain conditions, with administrative approval, it may be appropriate, but in general I believe it's not.

That's all moot, however, since Teacher Ninja Dude is not licensed.
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  #177  
Old 02-18-2013, 9:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Some of you guys crack me up; any nuanced opinion, anything short of "unlimited gun carrying for everyone" is labeled as "anti-gun." That's a pretty simplistic model. I do NOT support a teacher who (a) intentionally breaks the law by bringing a gun on campus without being licensed; and (b) brags about it to 12 year olds. Period. Spin this any way you want, but supporting idiots like Teacher Ninja Dude will do nothing at all to advance gun rights.
There are many arguments and opinions about this.

Considering the police already stationed at schools and the public desire to protect our children I think allowing trained staff to carry is a far superior option to employing more police officers or hiring guards. When comparing cost, I consider a voluntarily armed teacher/administrator much more effective.

I agree that this man made a foolish choice, but I believe his motive was good, so I think your disrespectful terms are not appropriate or constructive.

LC
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  #178  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
They can, with an LTC. District policies may or may not prohibit it, but with an LTC it's legal. I still believe that there's an unfavorable risk to benefit ratio, and in general I am not in favor of it, but neither do I favor rescinding the 626.9 exemption for LTC holders. I would simply like to see licensees exercise sound judgment. Unless you've worked in a large urban or suburban secondary school for a significant period of time, you can't grasp the complexity of the issue. In limited cases under certain conditions, with administrative approval, it may be appropriate, but in general I believe it's not.

That's all moot, however, since Teacher Ninja Dude is not licensed.
This is all under the perfect assumption he could have acquired an LTC. Has anybody stated yet that the teacher's county is shall issue?
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  #179  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:28 AM
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This is all under the perfect assumption he could have acquired an LTC. Has anybody stated yet that the teacher's county is shall issue?
This was in San Diego County, and we are far from being a "Shall Issue" here.
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  #180  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by LooseCannon View Post
This was in San Diego County, and we are far from being a "Shall Issue" here.
So the people criticizing the teacher would rather he leave himself defenseless?
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  #181  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:47 AM
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So the people criticizing the teacher would rather he leave himself defenseless?
Maybe they are just showing their support for our Sheriff?
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  #182  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
In the 2010-11 school year, there were nearly 99,000 K-12 public schools operating in the US. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the number right now is within ± 5% of that figure. We'll use the low end of the range if you want, and round it off to 94,000. Let's also define a "school shooting" for our purposes here as being an incident in which the presence of an armed staff member could reasonably be assumed to have a decent chance of stopping the threat and reducing the loss of life (let's exclude drive-by and other shootings outside the school, shootings in which a suspect fled the scene immediately after a very quick assault, etc.). How many of those incidents were there in the previous 12 months? Let's estimate on the high end, just to be as fair as possible to the San Diego school ninja support crowd; say, 50? As I've defined such incidents above, that number is high, but I'll use it. Fifty incidents out of 94,000 schools (I'm leaving out private schools for convenience). 50/94,000 = 0.053% of schools in which an armed staff member might have been able to effectively intervene and save lives in the previous year.

Some of you may argue a deterrent effect. I think that's a very fuzzy area, since many or even most of these sickos who shoot up schools are suicidal. I doubt that the knowledge that there may be armed staff member/s would deter many of 'em.

Now let's look at the down side to this. First, whether you'd like to admit it or not, there are a certain percentage of LTC holders who demonstrate less than stellar judgment. Anecdotally speaking, all you have to do is read what some of 'em have posted around here in the last few years. The only thing keeping San Diego School Ninja Dude from being licensed was his county of residence; in many counties, he probably would've been able to get one. That guy's a dumb-*****. What kind of decisions would he have made in an active shooter situation? Fortunately, we won't have to find out, as far as he's concerned, anyway. Remember though, that the chances of ever encountering an active shooter situation in a K-12 school are extremely tiny. The benefit, therefore, even if we were to assume that most armed staff members would exercise sufficiently sound judgment (an extreme assumption), would be very low.

The second part of a benefit/risk assessment is the risk. Can you identify some of the risks involved? I'll hold my thoughts on that for now because I'm curious as to whether anyone else is thinking along similar lines.
It isn't the odds, it's the stakes.

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  #183  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by LooseCannon View Post

I agree that this man made a foolish choice, but I believe his motive was good, so I think your disrespectful terms are not appropriate or constructive.

LC
I stand by my characterization of the guy. His ill-advised, STUPID act is one more pebble in the pile of rhetorical ammo for extremists like Yee, Amiano, and Skinner. In this state the only chance outside of court challenges and the outside possibility of a non-overridden veto by the governor to prevent at least some of the most odious of the currently proposed legislation is to get some Democrats to resist some of it. Every case like this makes that less and less likely. So yeah, a guy who breaks the law and brags to 12 year olds and portrays that illegal act as part of his self-appointed role as extralegal would-be hero is a fool.
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  #184  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by IPSICK View Post
So the people criticizing the teacher would rather he leave himself defenseless?
Nice false dichotomy there. Next.
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  #185  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
It isn't the odds, it's the stakes.

Seat belts save lives rarely. When they do, it is because someone put them on.
Seat belts save lives orders of magnitude more often than armed teachers.


http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811105.pdf
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  #186  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Some of you may argue a deterrent effect. I think that's a very fuzzy area, since many or even most of these sickos who shoot up schools are suicidal. I doubt that the knowledge that there may be armed staff member/s would deter many of 'em.
Why don't more of them choose to walk up in the police station to finish the deed, to the range, a shooting match, perhaps a live fire military drill? I'd guess there are specific reasons these sacks of _hi_ choose targets such as schools, whether they are totally conscious of those reasons or not. Part of the reasoning must be the fact these are sterilized areas.
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  #187  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:36 AM
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Ready,
Is that the only variable you can identify, the perceived presence or lack of armed people? The pathology of mass killers is more complex than that.

I notice no one has yet speculated on the potential negative aspects of doing the job of a teacher or other school staff member while armed.
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  #188  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:47 AM
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But anyway, this is destined for the vast repository of threads in which no consensus was ever reached. Some issues are multilayered, and this is one of 'em. The general tendency to oversimplify issues and to label any attempt to examine those layers as "anti-gun" pretty much precludes any substantive discussion.
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  #189  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Ready,
Is that the only variable you can identify, the perceived presence or lack of armed people? The pathology of mass killers is more complex than that.

I notice no one has yet speculated on the potential negative aspects of doing the job of a teacher or other school staff member while armed.
Not the only one. Notice I said "part of".
You will concede it is a major "variable" though, right?

I'm not arguing for or against LTC by staff here but your dismissal of sterilized areas being targeted is way off IMO.
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  #190  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:51 AM
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The way I see it, if an elementary teacher is showing kids his gun, what else is he showing them?

I found the school district policy manual online. It expressly prohibits employees from having firearms on school property, whether or not the employee has a permit.

Quote:
G–1100

While on district sites, employees shall have neither on their person nor at their work locations, with or without permits, weapons such as guns, knives, or clubs. Employees with an appropriate permit may carry a chemical spray onto school sites to have available as a personal weapon before and after student contact and supervision hours. Responsibility for security or misapplication of a chemical spray lies with the employee.
Regardless of whether the DA decides to prosecute or the outcome of the trial, he'll still likely be fired by the school district for violating district policy.

He's sunk.
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  #191  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:55 AM
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All anyone needs for self defense is a phone with the numbers 1 & 9 on the keypad. Thats it!!!
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  #192  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:06 PM
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Did know about the chemical spray Kimberly pepper blaster would have been somewhat effective
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  #193  
Old 02-18-2013, 1:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Nice false dichotomy there. Next.
I've never really been a binary person, so I am open to any alternatives you may have to offer.

Seems like you only want to demean and criticize and constructive discussion is outside of your current vocabulary.
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  #194  
Old 02-18-2013, 4:19 PM
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Who says the guy was "bragging"? Maybe he had a garment malfunction and tried to diffuse the situation....
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  #195  
Old 02-18-2013, 4:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Ready,
Is that the only variable you can identify, the perceived presence or lack of armed people? The pathology of mass killers is more complex than that.

I notice no one has yet speculated on the potential negative aspects of doing the job of a teacher or other school staff member while armed.
The problem with calculating probability is that its inherently unpredictable.

The odds of actually needing a firearm to defend yourself in one lifetime is very low in America.Yet ,I've been involved in three direct threats to my life, and had to draw on two with my carry pistol.One incident happened at " gun free zone" which I had the good fortune to ignore.

The odds of a university or school suffering a spree shooting is low.Yet VT has suffered two shooting incidents.

We have to acknowledge the fact that while a violent attack is unlikely,it's a long way from impossible. NASA spends millions of dollars tracking space rocks around Earth.The odds of an asteroid impact are extremely,incongruously low compared to nearly every other hazard we humans face: yet we prioritize it enough to spend millions on object tracking .


If you went before Congress as a NASA administrator and said our policy regarding asteroids is to pass a law banning impacts,you'd be dismissed on the spot- and probably 5150'd too. Yet that is exactly the same policy in place regarding our children.Its insanity posing as a good idea,and I applaud the teacher for taking a common sense approach.
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  #196  
Old 02-18-2013, 4:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJoke View Post
Those very words were uttered by the defense lawyer representing the San Diego sheriff in oral arguments Dec 6th. those very words
But that permission only applies if you own or have a proprietary interest in the place or have permission of the owner, AND you are not in a public or semi-public area.

Neither of those conditions apply here. He is guilty under CA law.
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  #197  
Old 02-18-2013, 4:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Seat belts save lives orders of magnitude more often than armed teachers.


http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811105.pdf
You intentionally missed my point. I win.


Quote:
oversimplify issues
You figured that out after posting a half dozen times with a thousand words.

You lost.
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Last edited by paul0660; 02-18-2013 at 4:56 PM..
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  #198  
Old 02-18-2013, 6:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready_eSeVe View Post
Not the only one. Notice I said "part of".
You will concede it is a major "variable" though, right?

I'm not arguing for or against LTC by staff here but your dismissal of sterilized areas being targeted is way off IMO.
Did you read that as an outright dismissal? Why?
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  #199  
Old 02-18-2013, 6:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IPSICK View Post
I've never really been a binary person, so I am open to any alternatives you may have to offer.

Seems like you only want to demean and criticize and constructive discussion is outside of your current vocabulary.
I disagree. I have criticized the stupid actions of a guy who is now in the news. He's not a member here as far as I know. I have disagreed with people in this and other threads, but I don't hurl invective and I don't demean. If you feel otherwise, please cite what I wrote that you interpreted as demeaning.
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  #200  
Old 02-18-2013, 6:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
You intentionally missed my point. I win.




You figured that out after posting a half dozen times with a thousand words.

You lost.
If you want to feel that you won, go ahead. Wishing for something doesn't magically make it so.

Upon further review, I've decided you're right--you won. You are the champion.
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Last edited by Old_Bald_Guy; 02-18-2013 at 6:30 PM..
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