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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #121  
Old 02-14-2013, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by IPSICK View Post
The only stupid thing he did in my opinion is tell his students.

Many lawbreakers in the Civil Rights Movement too as well as Heller. Were they all stupid?
Pick your battles...and your battlegrounds. I don't think now is the best time to have a gun at school in violation of the law. And of course, to be telling the students about it.
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  #122  
Old 02-14-2013, 1:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Pick your battles...and your battlegrounds. I don't think now is the best time to have a gun at school in violation of the law. And of course, to be telling the students about it.
Truth. Without a carry license, he was breaking the law as it currently was. He chose to broke it, now he gets to play felon.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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  #123  
Old 02-14-2013, 7:02 AM
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A lot of ignorance in this thread regarding the teachers' union. I don't like it, personally. I tried to leave it but missed my chance for this year.

It doesn't fight for child molesters. It doesn't play favorites. It is not run like other unions.

If I have a legal issue regarding work, as a member of the union, I must be given a union lawyer. That's the agreement. There is no legal mechanism whereby the union can decide the facts and say, "No. This guy is a child molester. Representation denied!" That's for a court to decide. Unions don't fight for anything regarding individual teachers. They just enforce collective bargaining rights. Molesting children does not fall under that umbrella. We are never called upon to picket or demonstrate in any way for individual teachers. Ever. I've never seen that it or heard about that happening. Ever.

As regards this teacher, he has a legal dispute regarding his job. He will get a union lawyer. No way around that. As with a child molester, it probably won't cover his police woes, but it will cover his dispute over his troubles with the school.

As to how I feel about this issue as a teacher, I'm a bit torn. Last week, I found a box of ammo on the floor in the back of my truck. What if I'd taken that truck to school? Could I be in a similar situation? What if I'd forgotten my CCW in my truck?

On the other hand... Is a .380 really the choice of a man planning to defend the school? He had it in his vehicle, not on his person, right? So this wasn't a choice for concealment. If I were planning to protect my campus, I'd go with at the very least a 9mm. His choice in caliber alone makes me question things a bit. Ever see a REALLY accurate .380?


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  #124  
Old 02-14-2013, 8:29 AM
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It was supposedly in his pocket when he was in school. And all caliber disputes aside, you cannot but agree that the gun you have in hand when you need one is better than a higher caliber gun you do not have, or not having a gun at all.
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  #125  
Old 02-14-2013, 8:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kappy View Post
On the other hand... Is a .380 really the choice of a man planning to defend the school? He had it in his vehicle, not on his person, right? So this wasn't a choice for concealment. If I were planning to protect my campus, I'd go with at the very least a 9mm. His choice in caliber alone makes me question things a bit. Ever see a REALLY accurate .380?
A .380 round is 9mm in diameter.

Remember the job of someone pulling a gun in self defense is just that.Its not playing John McClaine in the school building hunting down some bad guy . That's a great way to get killed by the scumbag or the cops.

If there's an active shooter in the school, a .380 is the perfect choice to use in defending against a bad guy entering a barricaded door. Remember that most school policies regarding spree shooters is to lock down in place, so the only area you'd be defending as a teacher is the immediate classroom.

Most classrooms lose only to an elevator on the "Places You'd Never Want a Gunfight" list . The only good thing about 1 entry and exit is that the bad guy has to use it too, which makes things easier for the defender. As such the distances involved will be at maximum 21 feet, and probably far less. Most classrooms I've attended have the teachers' podium probably 6 feet from the door at the most. At that spacing a .22LR delivered right will do the job, to say nothing of larger calibers.
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  #126  
Old 02-14-2013, 8:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ll-Rafael-ll View Post
A perfectly normal, good, law abiding citizen carrying a gun to class for the protection of his students should, God forbid, a criminal try to hurt them.
Yet, the parents are demonizing the teacher as if he spawned straight from hell.
At least the kids seem to be 2nd amendment supporters, which will help this country in the future.

If a damn teacher wants to conceal carry to school, why not let the dammit? Not to mention that is hell of a lot better for two reasons.
1. It's free
2. If an insane person tries to shoot a classroom, instead of a fat-@$$ cop/guard running to the scene of the shooting after it happens, an armed teacher will be right there!
I wonder how many years the teacher was carrying. The brainwashed parents are probably arguing that he could go off the deep end just from having that gun, yet he seems to have resisted the evil spell of the firearm and never shot anyone.
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  #127  
Old 02-14-2013, 9:02 AM
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Well...isn't one of the exclusions in the law that says it is OK to carry in your place of business?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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  #128  
Old 02-14-2013, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Pick your battles...and your battlegrounds. I don't think now is the best time to have a gun at school in violation of the law. And of course, to be telling the students about it.
Why isn't this the best time?

Fear and emotion can be a double-edged sword. Do you pick a time when there is less of a perceived threat to schools and classrooms? Don't you think he would come off as more of a paranoid kook and nut in a closer to normal climate?

And everyone keeps on commenting that he should have had a CCW/LTC, but how realistic was it for him to acquire one? Is it just as difficult to get in his county as it is in mine (Alameda County)? If so what are his options other than to remain unarmed as so many of you seem to support?

I get everyones' opinions on why he shouldn't have been carrying (broke the law and school policy), but the judgmental tone reeks of an anti civil rights perspective on guns.
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  #129  
Old 02-14-2013, 11:20 AM
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I wonder how this would have played out in the following circumstance:

Shooter goes to school and opens fire. Enters this guy's classroom and the teacher draws and wastes the guy. Would he still be considered a dangerous criminal?
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  #130  
Old 02-14-2013, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
Well...isn't one of the exclusions in the law that says it is OK to carry in your place of business?
It can't be your place of business unless you're the owner. For the teacher, it's just his place of employment.
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  #131  
Old 02-14-2013, 1:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
I have heard that California teachers have a powerful union.
yes and they've been most vocal in favor of bans. it'll be interesting to see if they protect one of their own or throw him under the bus in favor of their agenda.
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  #132  
Old 02-14-2013, 1:46 PM
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Originally Posted by aliphian View Post
I wonder how this would have played out in the following circumstance:

Shooter goes to school and opens fire. Enters this guy's classroom and the teacher draws and wastes the guy. Would he still be considered a dangerous criminal?
Just a criminal, unless he didn't check his backstop, and shot a student, then it is back to dangerous.
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  #133  
Old 02-14-2013, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by motorhead View Post
yes and they've been most vocal in favor of bans. it'll be interesting to see if they protect one of their own or throw him under the bus in favor of their agenda.
I think they have to defend him but only 'wouldn't mind' throwing him under the bus.
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  #134  
Old 02-15-2013, 6:31 AM
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Originally Posted by A-J View Post
It was supposedly in his pocket when he was in school. And all caliber disputes aside, you cannot but agree that the gun you have in hand when you need one is better than a higher caliber gun you do not have, or not having a gun at all.
I did not see that it was in his pocket.


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  #135  
Old 02-15-2013, 6:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
A .380 round is 9mm in diameter.

Remember the job of someone pulling a gun in self defense is just that.Its not playing John McClaine in the school building hunting down some bad guy . That's a great way to get killed by the scumbag or the cops.

If there's an active shooter in the school, a .380 is the perfect choice to use in defending against a bad guy entering a barricaded door. Remember that most school policies regarding spree shooters is to lock down in place, so the only area you'd be defending as a teacher is the immediate classroom.

Most classrooms lose only to an elevator on the "Places You'd Never Want a Gunfight" list . The only good thing about 1 entry and exit is that the bad guy has to use it too, which makes things easier for the defender. As such the distances involved will be at maximum 21 feet, and probably far less. Most classrooms I've attended have the teachers' podium probably 6 feet from the door at the most. At that spacing a .22LR delivered right will do the job, to say nothing of larger calibers.
I am aware of the .380s characteristics. I carry one when my 1911 is too obvious or heavy. The .380 as a caliber is not the central issue, although it has far less going for it in regards to penetration and stopping power compared to the 9mm.

My point was more about the various .380 platforms out there. Bersa, Walther, CZ, Colt, etc. the .380s available all seem to have one particular commonality: a short sight radius. A non-shoot rich environment like a school isn't some place I want to be missing shots. If I were firing at an intruder in my classroom's wing, I stand a good chance of a errant round finding its way into another classroom.

Now... We already have stipulated that a badguy is firing off enough rounds... But even one accidental shooting of a kid during that is going to be a bit ugly for us.

Still, I do think teachers should be allowed to carry if they are trained. This guy may or may not have been. Regardless, I have a CCW and will not carry on campus. And I initially got my CCW because I'd received some serious death threats over the phone in my classroom


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  #136  
Old 02-15-2013, 6:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IPSICK View Post
The only stupid thing he did in my opinion is tell his students.

Many lawbreakers in the Civil Rights Movement too as well as Heller. Were they all stupid?
+1 ^

To paraphrase E.M. Forster, “If I had to choose between betraying my country's unjust laws and betraying myself, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country's unjust laws.”

That being said, I would not trumpet the choice to a room full of talkative children who are daily surrounded by my vindictive enemies.
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  #137  
Old 02-15-2013, 8:25 AM
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Originally Posted by aliphian View Post
I wonder how this would have played out in the following circumstance:

Shooter goes to school and opens fire. Enters this guy's classroom and the teacher draws and wastes the guy. Would he still be considered a dangerous criminal?
He would be charged and tried for homicide. No doubt he would be labeled as a criminal for this. Then he would be sued by some parents, the bad guys family, and the school district for violating the shooters civil rights.
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  #138  
Old 02-15-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
Go punch a cow, Tex. As someone else mentioned, if he hadn't blabbed about it, he could have done it forever.

You probably aren't aware that Texas PC §46.035 includes FAR more restrictions on legal CCW than the California codes. Perhaps you should pound sand about that as you avoid the tumbleweeds.
1) I looked up said penal code and you're incorrect, PRK is far more restrictive. Most of those laws are ignored by LEO/D.A. here anyways.

2) You have just as many tumbleweeds, and more sand.

3) He shouldn't have to worry about someone knowing about it.

4) You are losing your rights because you're afraid of the libs in your state, and worry WAAY too much about how they're going to feel about you.

5) Tex? Badge of honor.

6) Punch cows? Whatever.
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  #139  
Old 02-15-2013, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Knucklehead.
Actually this is good. A teacher is one of the GFZ proponents. Could it be they no longer have faith in their signage?
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  #140  
Old 02-15-2013, 10:42 AM
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He is an idiot only because he got caught.

Well... probably for other reasons too. But still an idiot.
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  #141  
Old 02-15-2013, 3:06 PM
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You guys are proposing a standard that is impossible to achieve. You'd damned well better be able to live up to that standard if you're going to accuse and demean others who fail it.

The standard I refer to is that of perfection. In particular, you guys are insisting that the teacher not merely aim for perfect concealment, but actually achieve it.

Has it occurred to you that the teacher may have told his students about his weapon because a student saw it? The mantra is "concealed means concealed", but nobody's perfect, and to insist that this teacher was "an idiot" or, worse, deserves what he's now getting in light of the very real possibility that his weapon somehow became exposed in sight of one or more of his students, and that he explained to his class that he has the firearm because it got exposed in that way, is to hold him to a standard of perfection that I very much doubt any of you can achieve.


Let he who is without sins cast the first stone. Many stones have been cast here, by people who are almost certainly not sinless. Look in the mirror. The person you see there could easily be the next person thrown in jail for breaking the unforgiving and unconscionable laws of this state. Those laws are the problem. This teacher is not.
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  #142  
Old 02-15-2013, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by domino View Post
He would be charged and tried for homicide. No doubt he would be labeled as a criminal for this. Then he would be sued by some parents, the bad guys family, and the school district for violating the shooters civil rights.
In California, "homicide" is an act, not a crime. There is no crime called "homicide".
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  #143  
Old 02-15-2013, 3:43 PM
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2 things, the teacher telling all of his students he has a gun is a double edged sword meaning by that damned if you do damned if you don't, if he didn't tell anyone he had it and it became known we could be seeing in the headlines "teachers plot of mass destruction foiled" and like he did tell, kids talk and word gets around. The other thing in the article one of the parents said "we don't need a teacher playing security gaurd" next thing that parent will say is we don't need good samaritans playing doctor to someone not breathing, tell that nonsensical arguement to the person who is still alive because someone with good intentions stepped in and either provided live saving first aid or stepped in and actually protected them from harm with a firearm, knife or just mere presence. We don't need gun control or gun permits we need more birth control and permits to reproduce only people with passing logic and IQ standards will be permitted...
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  #144  
Old 02-15-2013, 3:55 PM
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Originally Posted by winnre View Post
Actually this is good. A teacher is one of the GFZ proponents. Could it be they no longer have faith in their signage?
Yeah... Because all teachers think the same way.

Are you kidding? There are at least 5 teachers on this site who are probably, to a man, against GFZs.


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  #145  
Old 02-15-2013, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AmmoBox View Post
We don't need gun control or gun permits we need more birth control and permits to reproduce only people with passing logic and IQ standards will be permitted...
^This^ Exactly...
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  #146  
Old 02-15-2013, 4:14 PM
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1) I looked up said penal code and you're incorrect, PRK is far more restrictive. Most of those laws are ignored by LEO/D.A. here anyways.
You looked where?

51% alcohol law.....not in Cali
30-06 signs............not in Cali
sporting event........not in Cali
hospitals................not in Cali
amusement parks...not in Cali
churches................not in Cali
.gov meetings........not in Cali

Ignored? Maybe, but you would have had to be arrested for any of them to know for sure..........got pics?
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  #147  
Old 02-15-2013, 4:19 PM
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Commifornia rather arrest teachers then protect our kids.. Only in USSA.
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  #148  
Old 02-15-2013, 4:21 PM
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...Those laws are the problem. This teacher is not.
Yup
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  #149  
Old 02-15-2013, 5:25 PM
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everything Hitler did in Germany was "legal".

Are we so H3LL bent on the holy grail of shall issue LTC/CCW, sorry I don't believe it is constitutional to charge a poll tax to vote and last I checked neither does the SCOTUS. So why should I have to pay a poll tax in the guise of an "Administrative Fee" or even ask the nanny state for a mother may I slip to exercise I right that per-exists the State!?

It does not matter if he carries concealed, open or wears it as a hat, he has a right to keep and bear arms and has the right to life liberty and property as well as the right to defend them. We don't need anyone's permission to do these things if we are required to get permission IT IS NOT A RIGHT.

As for Jury nullification, it is part of the process, does it suck sometimes, yeah, if you think the people that received it should not have, however it is a vital part of the system because the people can use it to nullify laws that are unconstitutional even though some learned judge with a magic decoder ring says the law is constitutional. I read English rather well and believe I posses reasonable common sense. Governments and juries are supposed to seek justice and defend the rights of people not the law over the rights.

Someone please please explain to me how much of my right to self defense and the manner in which I exercise that right does the State have authority over and why?
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  #150  
Old 02-15-2013, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
You looked where?

51% alcohol law.....not in Cali
30-06 signs............not in Cali
sporting event........not in Cali
hospitals................not in Cali
amusement parks...not in Cali
churches................not in Cali
.gov meetings........not in Cali

Ignored? Maybe, but you would have had to be arrested for any of them to know for sure..........got pics?
See what happens in the PRK, if you get pulled over and have a loaded, chambered and concealed handgun between your seat and your console. YOU GO TO JAIL! Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. LEGAL in Texas, WITHOUT a CCW.
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  #151  
Old 02-16-2013, 10:06 AM
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How many of you would support him if there was a shooting at the school and this teacher successfully defended himself and his students with the gun he was carrying illegally? Self defense trumps any and every law. The Constitution (which I swore an oath to uphold and defend when I joined the military) trumps all other laws contrary to it. If I was on his jury I would not vote to convict. In fact, I would not convict anybody for ever violating any gun control laws. They're all illegal laws.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
I have heard that California teachers have a powerful union.
CTA will provide a "defense" for him. Do not expect it to be a strong and experienced attorney. CTA, and I am a 39 year member and at one time very involved member, tends to be just a little left of Sen. Feinstein.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:33 AM
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IANAL, but I believe teachers have no legal authority or requirement to defend students from attackers. So why should he be authorized to carry on campus? If there was an assault on the school, he could (and probably should) run like a mofo in the opposite direction.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dragunov View Post
See what happens in the PRK, if you get pulled over and have a loaded, chambered and concealed handgun between your seat and your console. YOU GO TO JAIL! Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. LEGAL in Texas, WITHOUT a CCW.
So you concede your point. tyvm.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Teacher failed the Big IQ test.

Concealed means concealed.

And he should STFU about such stuff.

Like we say, most people talk themselves into jail [or outta a job...]
This, plus the fact that he apparently had no LTC

He could easily be the next nutcase gone wild.

I'm all for teachers and CCW

But there is a right and a wrong way to go about it
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Old 02-16-2013, 6:07 PM
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It sickens me to know, that if the state made it law, that all individuals must immediately exit their vehicle during any traffic stop, get on their hands & knees & bark like a dog untill ordered to lay down & shut up, that a large majority of people would comply, including people here.... God help us...
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Old 02-17-2013, 3:35 AM
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It should be noted that San Diego Unified School District is the only public school district openly endorsing Feinstein's Gun Ban. I have wondered about the legality of this, as they are publicly funded.

A LTC holder can carry on campus with the permission of the school administration. It is unlikely that many districts in this state would grant such permission, however. Where I work, there are some employees with LTC that have stated they would carry if the district would allow it. Others have said they would obtain a LTC if they could carry at work. I don't know if anyone has ever actually asked the administration about it.

School employees may also possess knives if they are necessary for the performance of their jobs. Custodians, maintenance staff, kitchen crews, etc. I carry a knife because I deal with a lot of boxes and packaging. I don't know how that would work out in the case of an English teacher, but there are exceptions to the law.

A teacher in another district near here was arrested a few years ago after the principal saw a sheathed hunting knife in the teacher's truck in the parking lot. Apparently, there was some history of animosity of the principal toward the teacher and the charges were dropped.

I have had firearms in locked containers in my locked vehicle at work, but no ammo, which satisfies both state and federal GFSZ requirements. Unfortunately these days, I am unlikely going to find any ammo at Wal-Mart on my way to the range if I decide to go shooting after work.
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Old 02-17-2013, 8:31 AM
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if he did it right,nobody would know he was carring!
damn, thought teachers were smarter then that.........no not really....be he was bragging and showing it off in teachers lounge and 1 of the antis tattled on him....
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:32 AM
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How many murderers got off in the south during the early parts of the civil rights movement because of jury nullifcation? The KKK actually COUNTED on it. You need to research and think a bit about Medgar Evers. I know EXACTLY what jury nullifcation leads to. As much as it can be used for good, it can be used for evil. The matter of fact is simply as a juror your job is to judge if some one broke the law, if you agree with it or not.

I *think* (and I admit this I do have to research), in that most states, jury nullification is intentionally left out of instructions because of studies that have shown nullification leads to hyper injustice (guilty people going free because they are sympathetic) or innocent people being found guilty because they are not "liked" by the jury.

Also, in California, where this issue took place, I know for sure that jurors are instructed to inform the judge if they believe some one is trying to decide a case based on if they agree or not with a law. This is an attempt to stop jury nullification from happening.

I cannot think of the Supreme Court ever taking up the issue in my lifetime.

P.S. I will add I don't think the teacher should be prosecuted. It serves no public good what so ever.
You've got the shoe on the wrong historical foot. In this country, we believe (or should) that it's better to let 10 guilty men go free than to convict one unjustly. Unfortunately, "unjustly" doesn't mean what it once did. Today, in every state, a juror is promptly thrown off a jury if he says he will vote his conscience rather than according to the law as explained by the judge. For the first half of our history, though, Supreme Court justices routinely stated that the juror was the conscience of the community, given the power to vote against the law. That is, the jury was a safeguard not just against an unjust trial but also against unjust laws. The juror still has that power; but will only be allowed to use it covertly...
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by FireControlman View Post
He did not show the students his weapon.

This is my child's teacher and he taught my eldest too previously. This guy is a hero. He screwed up saying too much, but, did not say "I carry a gun..or I have one here..".

For f*cks sake, this guy was ready to defend my child with this life. Waiting for 911 to respond to an active shooter has cost how many childrens lives? Colombine, Sandy Hook, he decided my child would not be counted among them if they were attacked. I am literally torn apart that my favorite teacher is in this situation.
I completely agree with you on this. I would also support a teach being armed for my childrens protection to prevent/stop another Sandy Hook or Colombine event.
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