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  #1  
Old 02-08-2013, 3:04 PM
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Default VIDEO: My Thumb Doesn't Reach the Mag Release!

I recorded the following video in response to another forum's member's inquiry as to how to hit the mag release if your thumb doesn't reach the mag release.

Here's one way of doing it:



Thanks for watching!
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Old 02-08-2013, 8:21 PM
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The potential problem with this technique is the need to reacquire the original grip once you are done with the reload as the grip after the reload will not be the same as the original grip.
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Old 02-08-2013, 9:16 PM
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Did you used to work for American Defense Enterprises?
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Old 02-09-2013, 2:17 PM
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Like anything else it's a training issue and can be overcome with lots of repetitions. The original grip can be reestablished with practice. Thanks for your comment.

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The potential problem with this technique is the need to reacquire the original grip once you are done with the reload as the grip after the reload will not be the same as the original grip.
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Old 02-09-2013, 2:19 PM
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I left a while ago (approx. 4 years ago). Thanks for watching.

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Did you used to work for American Defense Enterprises?
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Old 02-09-2013, 2:55 PM
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Another way to keep your grip is to install the magazine release on the same side as your trigger finger. Dave Harrington had that on his Glock 17. Very effective once you get the repetitions in. I used to do that on my H&K USP 45 with the ambidextrous magazine release.
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Old 02-09-2013, 3:20 PM
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Good idea. I personally don't like to be at a disadvantage if I have to use another handgun or someone else's handgun...hence a system that always works. One of the reasons I don't like B.A.D. Levers on rifles (nothing against this ingenious device...just don't like it for reasons mentioned above). Thank you for your comment!


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Another way to keep your grip is to install the magazine release on the same side as your trigger finger. Dave Harrington had that on his Glock 17. Very effective once you get the repetitions in. I used to do that on my H&K USP 45 with the ambidextrous magazine release.
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Old 02-09-2013, 3:54 PM
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...hence a system that always works.
In practice, no system always works just like there's no one size fits all and no one way. For pistol manipulation you operate them differently based on say striker-fired, decocker or single-action safety. Kind of like how different shooters send the slide home based on their pistol type/size and practice: overhand rack, pinch rack, left thumb (right-handed shooter) and right thumb (right-handed shooter).
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Old 02-09-2013, 4:09 PM
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You look like Cheech.
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Old 02-09-2013, 4:12 PM
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I was referring to the topic in question (and installing various add ons such as BAD Levers or right handed mag releases on a right handed persons handgun which get you accustomed to running your gun completely differently than standard weapons in its class). IF my thumb does not reach the mag release, I can use the rotation method on pretty much most handguns. As far as manipulations or methods of sending the slide home (and most aspects of shooting) you are absolutely correct...I was directing my response to the issue at hand.

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In practice, no system always works just like there's no one size fits all and no one way. For pistol manipulation you operate them differently based on say striker-fired, decocker or single-action safety. Kind of like how different shooters send the slide home based on their pistol type/size and practice: overhand rack, pinch rack, left thumb (right-handed shooter) and right thumb (right-handed shooter).
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Old 02-09-2013, 4:17 PM
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Someone else mentioned that on another forum. Cheech is MUCH better looking

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You look like Cheech.
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Old 02-09-2013, 4:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixTacticalSolutions View Post
I was referring to the topic in question (and installing various add ons such as BAD Levers or right handed mag releases on a right handed persons handgun which get you accustomed to running your gun completely differently than standard weapons in its class). IF my thumb does not reach the mag release, I can use the rotation method on pretty much most handguns. As far as manipulations or methods of sending the slide home (and most aspects of shooting) you are absolutely correct...I was directing my response to the issue at hand.
True but even the original way of not using your support index hand to rotate the pistol has it uses because let's say you only have your strong hand.

I have a habit of rolling my eyes when I read or hear statements incorporating absolutisms: one way, best way, always works, only way, the way, etc.

Anyway, back to more important things: your stash definitely beats Cheech's!
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Old 02-10-2013, 7:14 AM
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I think my point was not made clearly...my fault. I was referring to the fact that most handguns have a LHS mag release. To that end, rotating will work on "most handguns". The chances of me picking up a handgun with a RHS mag release are not high...hence a system that works on "most handguns". If I happen to stumble upon a handgun with a RHS mag release...I will adapt.

Also, since I do not like to use my support hand finger to hit the mag release, for ME, this system will work on "most handguns"...for lack of other/better techniques.

If I only have my strong hand, and have small hands and can't reach the mag release, rotating the handgun is one way to reach the mag release. Again, since most handguns have a LHS mag release.

If I am shooting with my support hand, there will be no need to rotate...unless I ended with a handgun with a RHS mag release (and I have small hands).

I hope Cheech doesn't frequent this forum He'll be devastated...

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True but even the original way of not using your support index hand to rotate the pistol has it uses because let's say you only have your strong hand.

I have a habit of rolling my eyes when I read or hear statements incorporating absolutisms: one way, best way, always works, only way, the way, etc.

Anyway, back to more important things: your stash definitely beats Cheech's!
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Old 02-10-2013, 8:47 AM
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Cheech will indeed be jealous of your stash...

Your original posted video is very similar to what Dave Spaulding advocated which he got from Kelly McCann. See index mark 1:59 in the video below. Only difference is that he uses the full left hand to help rotate the pistol.



Now, back to more options...

Ideally, when pressing the magazine release button, one prefers not to change one's grip for faster delivery. As far as I know, there are three ways: extended magazine release (sometimes in conjunction with reduced blackstrap), magazine release on the same side as one's trigger finger and as a right-handed shooter using left thumb to release the magazine.

My own preferred pistols these days are Glock 17 & 34. I have the same extended magazine and slide release of the G34 on my G17. I have sanded down the extended magazine release so that it's smoother / rounded as well as not stick out so far. The magazine release allows me not to break my grip.

A good trend is in pistols like the Walther PPQ with ambidextrous magazine and slide releases as well as various blackstrap sizes.

Personally, I think it's a good thing to optimize the controls of your weapon for yourself as long as reliability is not compromised.
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Old 02-10-2013, 9:45 AM
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I had not seen Spaulding's video...thanks for posting. I figured since my index finger is right under the trigger guard, it allows for accomplishing the task with the least amount of movement and change in support hand mechanics.

I like that you rounded and filed the extended mag release so it does not stick out too far. It ALL comes down to what works for YOU.

Thanks for your comments!

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Cheech will indeed be jealous of your stash...

Your original posted video is very similar to what Dave Spaulding advocated which he got from Kelly McCann. See index mark 1:59 in the video below. Only difference is that he uses the full left hand to help rotate the pistol.



Now, back to more options...

Ideally, when pressing the magazine release button, one prefers not to change one's grip for faster delivery. As far as I know, there are three ways: extended magazine release (sometimes in conjunction with reduced blackstrap), magazine release on the same side as one's trigger finger and as a right-handed shooter using left thumb to release the magazine.

My own preferred pistols these days are Glock 17 & 34. I have the same extended magazine and slide release of the G34 on my G17. I have sanded down the extended magazine release so that it's smoother / rounded as well as not stick out so far. The magazine release allows me not to break my grip.

A good trend is in pistols like the Walther PPQ with ambidextrous magazine and slide releases as well as various blackstrap sizes.

Personally, I think it's a good thing to optimize the controls of your weapon for yourself as long as reliability is not compromised.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixTacticalSolutions View Post

It ALL comes down to what works for YOU.
Indeed. Even more refined is to say what works for you most efficiently. That's why you should never eliminate a technique out of hand without an appropriate trial period.
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:00 PM
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The best thing to do is find a handgun that fits your hand. I am not a fan of extended controls on handguns for defensive use. I've seen too many issues with such controls in class. Filing the mag release is a good start.

Even if you have extended controls on your handgun, it's best to be able to effectively operate same without such controls. You may have to use someone else's or a handgun without extended controls.
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:31 PM
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The problems with extended controls are multi-fold. Firstly, shooters don't give it a proper trial run with associated adjustments. For instance, the extended slide release of the G34 on a G17. The release stands out and as a right-handed shooter if your right thumb is too close to the slide you won't get the slide lock after emptying your magazine. However, with practice of laying your right thumb on top of the left thumb you won't have this issue. All about practice and repetitions. Secondly, there are extended controls that have solved some of the issues. For instance, the Larry Vickers extended slide and magazine releases for Glocks. The extended slide and mag releases do not jut out like the ones from the G34.
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Old 02-10-2013, 1:48 PM
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By the way, here's the Walther PPQ which although not CA-approved (other than single shot exemption) it has a lot going for it including factory extended controls and adjustable backstraps. Larry Vickers also thinks very highly of it and highlights the pros and cons.




TECHNICAL SPECS
  • Model: PPQ™ 9 mm Black Finish
  • Caliber: 9 mm
  • Action: Striker-Fire
  • Barrel Length: 4" / 102 mm
  • Capacity: 15 Rounds
  • Overall Length: 7.1" / 180 mm
  • Height: 5.3" / 135 mm
  • Width: 1.3" / 33 mm
  • Sight Radius: 6.1" / 156 mm
  • Weight (no/mag): 24.5 oz. / 695 g

FEATURES
  • QDT- Quick Defense Trigger
  • Short, Audible Reset
  • 100% Pre-Cocked Striker
  • Smooth Action and Short Trigger Reset
  • New, Cross-Directional Textured Tactical Grip™
  • Front and Rear Slide Serrations
  • Extended, Ambidextrous Slide Stop
  • Ambidextrous Mag Release
  • Small & Large Backstraps Included
  • Picatinny-Style Accessory Rail
  • 17-Round Optional Magazine Available
  • Adjustable Rear and Front Sights
  • Loaded Chamber Indicator
  • Firing Pin Block
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Old 02-10-2013, 2:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Another way to keep your grip is to install the magazine release on the same side as your trigger finger. Dave Harrington had that on his Glock 17.
Interesting. Manipulating the mag release with the dominant hand would be awkward though, no?

I picked up Dave Spaulding's technique but find that my hands don't reset to the starting grip and I have to re-grip one more time to get original grip back which times some time.

P.S. The new PPQ M2 has the traditional mag release button.

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Old 02-10-2013, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gesundheit View Post
Interesting. Manipulating the mag release with the dominant hand would be awkward though, no?

I picked up Dave Spaulding's technique but find that my hands don't reset to the starting grip and I have to re-grip one more time to get original grip back which times some time.

P.S. The new PPQ M2 has the traditional mag release button.

A lot of methods seem awkward at the beginning until you get the reps in. Using the trigger finger to release the magazine on the same side is used by some (Dave Harrington on his G17 & G19) as well as like me on H&K USP.

On my ARs and 1911s I have ambidextrous safety. On my ARs, I now set the weapon on safe using my trigger finger and go off safe using the right thumb (I'm right-handed).

I don't like to break my grip either and that's why I have an extended mag release. The problem with some extended controls is that people don't give them enough reps or mechanically they're in their way or just going with the old familiar.

Quote:
The PPQ M1 had European-style magazine release paddles near the trigger guard, whereas the M2 meets the demand the company had been seeing in the American marketplace for the more traditional, changeable, ambidextrous push-button design at the front of the grip.
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Old 02-11-2013, 5:39 AM
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I suppose this isnt even an issue for those of us who shoot competition. Its what is necessary and what PTS showed is exactly how the majority would do a mag change. Nothing wrong with breaking your grip and none of us have an issue doing it that way. I suppose the idea of "breaking your grip" can be obsessed causing another method to be born but why?

We have a GM at our match who uses his support hand index finger to mag release and also uses support hand index finger over the trigger guard while shooting. It doesnt matter because obviously he can shoot.


Just shoot!

FYI I would never use my trigger finger for anything other then the trigger. To me its a safety concern more then anything else. Just like those POS serpa holsters that prep your trigger finger while drawing.

Last edited by Brian1979; 02-11-2013 at 5:45 AM..
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Old 02-11-2013, 7:12 AM
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Thanks Ramzar. I will have to not miss Dave Harrington's class next time he is in town.

Brian, I guess I will try to dry practice this a little more to see if it improves my grip re-acquisition. At the moment it is very irritating not having the correct grip at first.
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Old 02-11-2013, 9:39 AM
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Thanks for your comment Brian!

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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
I suppose this isnt even an issue for those of us who shoot competition. Its what is necessary and what PTS showed is exactly how the majority would do a mag change. Nothing wrong with breaking your grip and none of us have an issue doing it that way. I suppose the idea of "breaking your grip" can be obsessed causing another method to be born but why?

We have a GM at our match who uses his support hand index finger to mag release and also uses support hand index finger over the trigger guard while shooting. It doesnt matter because obviously he can shoot.


Just shoot!

FYI I would never use my trigger finger for anything other then the trigger. To me its a safety concern more then anything else. Just like those POS serpa holsters that prep your trigger finger while drawing.
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Old 02-11-2013, 9:54 AM
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Right after you eject the spent mag, quickly readjust your grip as you're reaching for the fresh mag. This gives you a little more time to obtain a true grip than adjusting once the mag is seated (or while you are inserting fresh mag).

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Thanks Ramzar. I will have to not miss Dave Harrington's class next time he is in town.

Brian, I guess I will try to dry practice this a little more to see if it improves my grip re-acquisition. At the moment it is very irritating not having the correct grip at first.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:55 AM
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Glock 21sf lots mag changes. Break my grip just fine and reaqquire it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmw3TAfTNBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxqj43fM_ig







If breaking grip is and issue for you and you cant acquire it again then more practice is needed. Its always going to be about grabing you gun from holster or night stand and instantly making a perfect grip. You arent going to have time assesing these details when the time comes. Perhaps it's the gun but unless you have little hands and its a fat g21 then I don't see how this should matter.

I prefer changing my grip a little to eject mags. The competition guys have huge buttons extended toward thumb as to not break grip. It's real funny to watch them accidentally eject a mag during course of fire. Not so funny on a SD gun.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:36 AM
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I think most people do shift their gun to hit the mag release. You can look at videos of Rob Leatham, Todd Jarrett, Travis Tomasie, and the list goes on, they all break their grip to hit the mag release.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:05 PM
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Well said and nice shooting. An analogy would be that of stance...a perfect stance is great but when you're moving or startled you have to take the stance that the moment gives you. Nothing is perfect...

I've seen mag dumps while shooting with extended mag releases as well as mag dumps coming out of holsters. Sometimes it's a gear (holster) issue. Even with lots of training to get used to extended mag releases, the possibility of an inadvertent mag dump is daunting. If you run an extended mag release, make sure you rest your gun on its RHS on your night stand (even with stock mag releases).

I think most everyone does a bit of adjusting to eject magazines...in the heat of the moment the adjustment is sometimes not noticed.

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Glock 21sf lots mag changes. Break my grip just fine and reaqquire it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmw3TAfTNBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxqj43fM_ig







If breaking grip is and issue for you and you cant acquire it again then more practice is needed. Its always going to be about grabing you gun from holster or night stand and instantly making a perfect grip. You arent going to have time assesing these details when the time comes. Perhaps it's the gun but unless you have little hands and its a fat g21 then I don't see how this should matter.

I prefer changing my grip a little to eject mags. The competition guys have huge buttons extended toward thumb as to not break grip. It's real funny to watch them accidentally eject a mag during course of fire. Not so funny on a SD gun.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:06 PM
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Exactly. Thanks for your comment.

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I think most people do shift their gun to hit the mag release. You can look at videos of Rob Leatham, Todd Jarrett, Travis Tomasie, and the list goes on, they all break their grip to hit the mag release.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
A lot of methods seem awkward at the beginning until you get the reps in. Using the trigger finger to release the magazine on the same side is used by some (Dave Harrington on his G17 & G19) as well as like me on H&K USP.

I don't like to break my grip either and that's why I have an extended mag release.
I agree with Ram. It was awkward to release the mags on my HKs initially but it has become second nature. Although I use my middle finger to release the mag on my HKs as it's easier for me to do than use my trigger finger.

I have small hands so I've installed an extended mag release on my Glock which works just fine allowing me to eject the mag without changing my grip.

Among my handguns, I much prefer the HK style ambi mag release.
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Old 02-11-2013, 1:01 PM
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ramzar ramzar is offline
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As a right-handed shooter using your trigger finger to press the magazine release button is not such an alien concept nor in practice. We all do it with an AR. It's true that some of these extended magazine releases protrude too far out and exposes the shooter to inadvertent mag releases. You have to find the right fit and test it out. Sometimes it needs the mag release to be filed down for both size and smooth edges.

Personally, I prefer and use extended ambidextrous controls where I can. Even with the Walther PPQ I would definitely get the M1 version with the extended ambidextrous magazine release over the M2 version with a traditional magazine release on one side (although it can be switched). The M2 is mostly to cater to the big U.S. LE market where departments don't want to go through "retraining".
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Old 02-11-2013, 1:17 PM
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With an HK I do agree something out of the ordinary is needed. I have a usp45 compact and took it off my CCW for a few reasons but I did use both my thumb and index finger to press the mag release down. If it works for you then fine no matter what method it is. It just matters that you can keep things straight in the moment and that comes from practice.

Last edited by Brian1979; 02-12-2013 at 5:07 AM..
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