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  #1  
Old 01-18-2013, 2:31 PM
reefer_bob reefer_bob is offline
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Default Issue with an FFL, potential for being reported to the DOJ...

So, I"m having an issue with an FFL. A private party mailed a rifle to them via USPS for transfer to me.

The FFL is saying this is illegal and cannot log the rifle in to their logbook. They state they cannot transfer the rifle to me and don't believe they can transfer to an FFL local to the seller. They're not claiming it's their policy, they're claiming it's against the law.

They're threatening calling the DOJ to report the issue. I've tried every level headed avenue for resolving the issue, but it keeps dragging on. As far as I know, they have not yet contacted DOJ. The rifle has been in limbo for several days now.

Is this something I should contact CGF for?

Thanks for any input.
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  #2  
Old 01-18-2013, 4:51 PM
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What rifle are we taking about? If it is a banned rifle you have a problem.
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  #3  
Old 01-18-2013, 5:01 PM
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Not banned, nothing crazy. :-)
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  #4  
Old 01-18-2013, 5:08 PM
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Did you tell your FFL ahead of the sale that this was being shipped from an individual and not an FFL? Some FFL's will only do FFL to FFL transfers.
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Old 01-18-2013, 5:13 PM
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I did but the seller went another direction. They never said it was a policy issue they flat out said it was illegal to ship directly.
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  #6  
Old 01-18-2013, 5:27 PM
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Its not illegal. There is another thread about this. Search for it. It has the DOJ link.
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  #7  
Old 01-18-2013, 5:45 PM
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Let them report it and look stupid to the DOJ. Find another local FFL who's not an idiot.
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  #8  
Old 01-18-2013, 6:32 PM
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What FFL is this? I had the same problem with one and I am wondering if it is the same one.
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  #9  
Old 01-18-2013, 6:49 PM
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Once this is finished, I'll let you know which FFL it is, I'd rather not say at this point.

The seller and I are very comfortable knowing that the law is behind us. I've basically told the FFL, either transfer the rifle to me, send it back to the sender's ffl, or call the DOJ. I'm hoping to have resolution soon.

My concern is if they decide to call the DOJ, I'm wondering if I should touch base with CGF and get some guidance from them...

My friend and I have actually considered proactively calling the ATF and giving the details...

Very frustrating.
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  #10  
Old 01-19-2013, 1:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reefer_bob View Post
So, I"m having an issue with an FFL. A private party mailed a rifle to them via USPS for transfer to me.
Assuming a CA legal firearm ...

See also:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...4#post10218124

Quote:
The FFL is saying this is illegal and cannot log the rifle in to their logbook. They state they cannot transfer the rifle to me and don't believe they can transfer to an FFL local to the seller. They're not claiming it's their policy, they're claiming it's against the law.
http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm

Quote:
432 Mailability
432.1 General
...
d. Unloaded rifles and shotguns may be mailed if the mailer fully complies with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90618) and
18 U.S.C. 921. The mailer may be required to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not excluded from mailing because of the restrictions in 432.1b and c.
So, what exactly are the claiming is illegal? It is legal, as shown above, to ship a long guns. Handguns can not be shipped USPS by non-licensees, which is what they might be confused by.

The other issue is that even if the shipping was not legal, they received a firearm and they are required to log that they received it and there is nothing preventing them from doing the transfer even if the shipment was not legal.

Quote:
They're threatening calling the DOJ to report the issue. I've tried every level headed avenue for resolving the issue, but it keeps dragging on. As far as I know, they have not yet contacted DOJ. The rifle has been in limbo for several days now.
Tell them to call. Also mention to them that they are violating Federal law if they have not logged the firearm into their bound book by now. Tell them to also call the BATF.

Not that it will do any good, but I could talk to them. Send me a PM if desired. Print out the USPS web page and give it to them and see if that changes their opinion.
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  #11  
Old 01-19-2013, 9:57 PM
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So what do they intend to do? Are they trying to convince you that the seller has to sell the gun to the ffl and then they will sell it to you for what ever price they want?
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  #12  
Old 01-20-2013, 5:54 AM
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The law is on your side. Ask them what they plan of action is and report back.

Let them call the DOJ, they will set them straight that nothing illegal occurred. The DOJ will not do anything so there is no need to contact CGF.

Why do FFLs make life so difficult? Just sign the gun in with that dude's address and let the customer start his background check. Why all of this unnecessary drama?
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  #13  
Old 01-20-2013, 6:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reefer_bob View Post
Once this is finished, I'll let you know which FFL it is, I'd rather not say at this point.
Then what is it that you are seeking to accomplish? Why are you keeping the name of the FFL secret? Maybe someone here knows them and can help get it resolved....
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  #14  
Old 01-20-2013, 7:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Why do FFLs make life so difficult? Just sign the gun in with that dude's address and let the customer start his background check. Why all of this unnecessary drama?
I have no idea. Perhaps they don't have enough of a life and want some excitement in their life, or it could be a power/control issue.

Perhaps you should report the FFL to the police and the BATF for theft of a firearm by the FFL.
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  #15  
Old 01-20-2013, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives_In_Fresno View Post
Then what is it that you are seeking to accomplish? Why are you keeping the name of the FFL secret? Maybe someone here knows them and can help get it resolved....
some people are afraid of negative repercussions if they out the FFL while the FFL still has their property. So, they wait until they get the situation taken care of before outing the FFL.
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  #16  
Old 01-20-2013, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
Let them report it and look stupid to the DOJ. Find another local FFL who's not an idiot.
This.
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  #17  
Old 01-21-2013, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Why do FFLs make life so difficult? Just sign the gun in with that dude's address and let the customer start his background check. Why all of this unnecessary drama?
This is assuming we have the whole story from the op. what if he thought he was getting an FFL transfer at a PPT price? There are a lot if confused people out there.

We need more details before pointing fingers.



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  #18  
Old 01-21-2013, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
This is assuming we have the whole story from the op. what if he thought he was getting an FFL transfer at a PPT price? There are a lot if confused people out there.
Sorry man, but I am not sure where you came up with this what if. The scenario is pretty straight forward. He said an individual shipped the gun to the dealer. The dealer said that is illegal to do and is now sitting on his gun. Not sure where you came up with the possibility that it was a non-PPT that they thought was a PPT.

This scenario is straight forward and we know dealers do what he is complaining about. My question still stands, "Why???"
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  #19  
Old 01-22-2013, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Sorry man, but I am not sure where you came up with this what if. The scenario is pretty straight forward. He said an individual shipped the gun to the dealer. The dealer said that is illegal to do and is now sitting on his gun. Not sure where you came up with the possibility that it was a non-PPT that they thought was a PPT.

This scenario is straight forward and we know dealers do what he is complaining about. My question still stands, "Why???"
I was only pointing out that we may not have the whole story and we might be hasty in blaming the FFL.

Maybe the OP can chime in with more info.

Cheers!


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  #20  
Old 01-22-2013, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
I was only pointing out that we may not have the whole story and we might be hasty in blaming the FFL.
While we might not have the whole story, making things up which were not in the OP does not help anything, it only makes things confusing.

The OP said that a long gun was shipped USPS from a non-FFL. Any claims that the person thought that it was PPT or had anything to do with fees is just bizarre, or is it that you are the FFL involved?
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  #21  
Old 01-23-2013, 8:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
While we might not have the whole story, making things up which were not in the OP does not help anything, it only makes things confusing.

The OP said that a long gun was shipped USPS from a non-FFL. Any claims that the person thought that it was PPT or had anything to do with fees is just bizarre, or is it that you are the FFL involved?
Not me.




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  #22  
Old 01-23-2013, 9:42 PM
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Update:

My local FFL has contacted the DOJ. I'm waiting on the DOJ to get back to my FFL to give them guidance.

Sigh.
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  #23  
Old 01-24-2013, 10:29 AM
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The issue is not with the CA DOJ, it would be more with the USPS. I doubt that the BATF would care.

Did you print out the USPS firearm mailability and give it to them?
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  #24  
Old 01-24-2013, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Let them report it and look stupid to the DOJ.
I have talked to people at DOJ who seem to parrot whatever the caller desires (without offering written acknowledgment of course). They shouldn't, but they do.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:38 AM
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So what's the issue? Is it that the OPs ffl won't transfer because the rifle is illegal or because the seller didn't send it from an ffl?

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Old 01-24-2013, 10:59 AM
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So what's the issue? Is it that the OPs ffl won't transfer because the rifle is illegal or because the seller didn't send it from an ffl?

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Or that they used USPS?
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:03 AM
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What I read was that the FFL had an issue because a non-FFL shipped a long gun USPS (which is perfectly legal) and the FFL thinks that is illegal, so the FFL is refusing to transfer it.

It is not a CA DOJ issue, nor a BATF issue, and if it was an illegal USPS shipment, then it would be a USPS issue, but based on what was said, it is only a FFL issue who needs to be educated. This is subject to change if the OP is not saying all of what is really going on or is not accurate.
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  #28  
Old 01-24-2013, 11:13 AM
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you can ship rifles USPS, You cannot ship Pistols....they must go Fedex,UPS overnight with tracking number. CMP used to ship me Garands all the time via USPS.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:15 AM
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And I do beleive a NON Dealer can ship a Long arm direct to FFL as long as it is not of some prohibited nature...AW for example.
but alot of folks do FFL to FFL anyway....
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehummerguy View Post
you can ship rifles USPS, You cannot ship Pistols....they must go Fedex,UPS overnight with tracking number. CMP used to ship me Garands all the time via USPS.
FFLs can ship handguns USPS, but non-FFL can not. Anyone can ship a long gun USPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehummerguy View Post
And I do beleive a NON Dealer can ship a Long arm direct to FFL as long as it is not of some prohibited nature...AW for example.
but alot of folks do FFL to FFL anyway....
Yes, there is no law which prohibits a non-FFL from shipping to a FFL in most places, but some FFLs have their own policy which could prevent it as some FFLs only receive firearms from other FFLs.

So-called a-salt weapons is a different issue since CA law prevents anyone other than a so-called a-salt weapons dealer from shipping a so-called a-salt weapon, including FFLs who do not have the permit.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:34 AM
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wait a minute......FUD?....FROM A GUN STORE?!?!?!?!?......my God, the Mayan Apocalypse must have caused a rift in the time-space continuum because this has never happened before!!!!






ok, ok, ok.........seriously, you have the law on your side. let us know what the FFL says after talking with the DOJ. Then out the store so we can avoid PPT's with them.

Good Luck!!!
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Old 01-28-2013, 5:56 PM
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Provided everything is legal by law, if the long gun shipped from a private seller with ID or address was not acceptable under the transferring shops store policy, the FFL shop dealer should have "returned it to sender." If they logged it into their books, then why, if they knew they had a policy that prevented the transfer!

On the other hand, if the private seller shipped the long gun to your transferring FFL without first requesting a signed copy of that FFL be faxed or emailed to the seller, (I number each FFL copy, who it was emailed to, and what item it is for), then the gun was shipped against store policy, and/or illegally (without an FFL copy).

Either way, the FFL is holding the firearm in limbo. He won't want to hold on to that red herring if he wants to stay in business with licenses and a decent reputation.

PM me if you want more help.


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Old 01-29-2013, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
Provided everything is legal by law, if the long gun shipped from a private seller with ID or address was not acceptable under the transferring shops store policy, the FFL shop dealer should have "returned it to sender." If they logged it into their books, then why, if they knew they had a policy that prevented the transfer!
It does not matter if the firearm was illegally shipped, since the FFL received it and needs to log it in. In this case, based on what was said, it was not illegally shipped. It can not be legally returned to the sender if the sender does not have a FFL.

Quote:
On the other hand, if the private seller shipped the long gun to your transferring FFL without first requesting a signed copy of that FFL be faxed or emailed to the seller, (I number each FFL copy, who it was emailed to, and what item it is for), then the gun was shipped against store policy, and/or illegally (without an FFL copy).
There is NO requirement that a non-licensee get a copy of the FFL and the BATF says it is not to give it out (not illegal, just a bad idea).

It does not matter if it violated their policy since they received the firearm and because of that they need to log it in. If they did not log it in and there is documentation to show that, they could have a problem with the BATF.


Quote:
Either way, the FFL is holding the firearm in limbo. He won't want to hold on to that red herring if he wants to stay in business with licenses and a decent reputation.
Quite true.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehummerguy View Post
you can ship rifles USPS, You cannot ship Pistols....they must go Fedex,UPS overnight with tracking number. CMP used to ship me Garands all the time via USPS.
Good information, thanks.
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Old 03-22-2013, 5:54 PM
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So what was the outcome?
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Old 03-22-2013, 9:22 PM
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Well, in short, I have the rifle. The DOJ was called and never responded. After some deliberation, and basically lack of any other options, they transfered the rifle to me.

w00t.
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  #37  
Old 03-22-2013, 9:46 PM
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DavidR310 DavidR310 is offline
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Well, in short, I have the rifle. The DOJ was called and never responded. After some deliberation, and basically lack of any other options, they transfered the rifle to me.

w00t.
Lmao, all this supposed "illegal" stuff and they transfer it. Wow.

Glad this turned out well. DOJ probably got the message and said "I ain't got time for this b.s."
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by reefer_bob View Post
Well, in short, I have the rifle. The DOJ was called and never responded. After some deliberation, and basically lack of any other options, they transfered the rifle to me.

w00t.
all this and not on pic of thissuper duper illegal rifle ?? thats just not right
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Old 03-23-2013, 1:58 PM
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So, I"m having an issue with an FFL. A private party mailed a rifle to them via USPS for transfer to me.

The FFL is saying this is illegal and cannot log the rifle in to their logbook. They state they cannot transfer the rifle to me and don't believe they can transfer to an FFL local to the seller. They're not claiming it's their policy, they're claiming it's against the law.

They're threatening calling the DOJ to report the issue. I've tried every level headed avenue for resolving the issue, but it keeps dragging on. As far as I know, they have not yet contacted DOJ. The rifle has been in limbo for several days now.

Is this something I should contact CGF for?

Thanks for any input.
The FFL is wrong. The action described is legal and happens every day. They need to log it and get the item out.

have them call DOJ, it's not an issue. Even ATF will say it's not an issue.
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Old 03-23-2013, 2:20 PM
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The FFL is wrong. The action described is legal and happens every day. They need to log it and get the item out.

have them call DOJ, it's not an issue. Even ATF will say it's not an issue.
FFL did call DOJ and DOJ didn't even bother to return the call since it was such a non-issue. OP has his super duper evil illegal rifle in hand.
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