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  #1  
Old 11-05-2012, 8:03 PM
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Default How does ATF measure barrel length?

I am asking that question because I have an odd barrel with a inward extension of about 3 inches past the chamber into the inner of the receiver. This extension is permanently attached to the barrel. The barrel is 11.5 inches from the chamber to the tip of the barrel. However, If I add another 3inches of that extension to the barrel, it is 14.5 inches.

How long is my barrel legally?



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Old 11-05-2012, 8:06 PM
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Bolt face to the furthest permanent part of the barrel.

They will put a dowel down the barrel and mark it.

The other part of your barrel doesn't count for the length.
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Old 11-05-2012, 8:07 PM
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ATF measures from the bolt face in the in battery position to then end of the muzzle. Put your bolt in battery and put a cleaning rod down the barrel until it hits the bolt face, mark the rod at the muzzle and measure.
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Old 11-05-2012, 8:08 PM
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How does ATF measure barrel length?

From the end of the muzzle to the breech.
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Old 11-05-2012, 8:21 PM
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There goes 3.5 inches hahahaha. Thank you guys.

Side note questions. So attaching a bayonet permanently to the barrel doesnt extend its length? Or should it?
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Old 11-05-2012, 8:28 PM
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Sir, with all due respect.

Do your homework and comply with our laws.

Enough said.
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Old 11-05-2012, 8:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightwolf0215 View Post
There goes 3.5 inches hahahaha.
I'm not laughing.
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Old 11-05-2012, 8:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightwolf0215 View Post
So attaching a bayonet permanently to the barrel doesnt extend its length?
No defiantly not.

A muzzle device on the other hand does count toward barrel length. (permanently attached if under legal lengths)

What is this barrel for? Even at the 14.5 you mention it is too short for a normal legal rifle or shotgun. (16 and 18)
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Old 11-05-2012, 8:47 PM
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its a barrel from a kit so its not made yet. Im asking around so I can make sure the extension is enough for it to be legal before I build it up.

Bayonet attachment has been suggested as a form of barrel extension, which doesnt make much sense. Haven't done that. No reason to do it. Asking to know for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlonewolf View Post
Sir, with all due respect.

Do your homework and comply with our laws.

Enough said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlonewolf View Post
I'm not laughing.
I appreciate the answers, wolf. But your attitude isn't very positive. are you unhappy that I brought up the question? Isn't the whole point of this forum is to share knowledge and information? Not many people would bother asking the question if they are not going to do the compliant work... Your answer were not particularly helpful or exceptional either. Where does the breech start or end? I don't know what it is.
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Old 11-05-2012, 8:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlonewolf View Post
I'm not laughing.
Are you not laughing because you would end up with nothing if you lost 3.5 inches?
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Old 11-05-2012, 8:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightwolf0215 View Post
its a barrel from a kit so its not made yet. Im asking around so I can make sure the extension is enough for it to be legal before I build it up.

Bayonet attachment has been suggested as a form of barrel extension, which doesnt make much sense. Haven't done that. No reason to do it. Asking to know for sure.





I appreciate the answers,

You are welcome.

wolf.

But your attitude isn't very positive.


Can you please elaborate about your statement.

are you unhappy that I brought up the question?

No, I'm not.

Isn't the whole point of this forum is to share knowledge and information?

Of course.

Not many people would bother asking the question if they are not going to do the compliant work...

We are here to assist.


Your answer were not particularly helpful or exceptional either.

I'm deeply sorry about that

Where does the breech start or end? I don't know what it is.

Can you please do your homework.


For any other questions please feel free to elaborate.

Thank you Sir.
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Old 11-05-2012, 9:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightwolf0215 View Post
its a barrel from a kit so its not made yet. Im asking around so I can make sure the extension is enough for it to be legal before I build it up.

Bayonet attachment has been suggested as a form of barrel extension, which doesnt make much sense. Haven't done that. No reason to do it. Asking to know for sure.





I appreciate the answers, wolf. But your attitude isn't very positive. are you unhappy that I brought up the question? Isn't the whole point of this forum is to share knowledge and information? Not many people would bother asking the question if they are not going to do the compliant work... Your answer were not particularly helpful or exceptional either. Where does the breech start or end? I don't know what it is.
The breach is the bolt face or the breach face which is where the case head sits when the round is chambered and ready to fire. Use a rod with the bolt in the locked position and insert it all the way down the barrel till it stops on the breach face. That is your legal barrel length.

Permanently mounted bayonets have been used to attain a legal over all length but not a barrel length. Barrels have to be 16" minimum for rifles and 18" for shotguns with no exceptions unless you weapon has an NFA stamp.

You barrel length can be made up of any combination of actual barrel and permanently mounted muzzle device that adds up to 16"
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Old 11-05-2012, 9:15 PM
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If you weren't being negative, great! If you had an assumption that I was on my way to doing something silly, thanks for the advice. I would never risk breaking any laws. Doing it right is the only way for me.

Hey Kerry, thanks for your answer. Elaborated as usual. Can't wait to see what you have for me in the mail haha. When you got time, check out those new drawings I sent ya. If you want to take on any of those, just let me know.
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Last edited by nightwolf0215; 11-05-2012 at 9:23 PM..
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  #14  
Old 11-05-2012, 9:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightwolf0215 View Post
If you weren't being negative, great! If you had an assumption that I was on my way to doing something silly, thanks for the advice. I would never risk breaking any laws. Doing it right is the only way for me.

Thanks for the answers. Guess I need a longer barrel extension than I thought.
..
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Old 11-06-2012, 7:48 AM
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I have heard of people welding the bayonet to get the OAL 30 inches for CA but never for barrel length. Doubt it can be done that way since it is not actually the barrel... you can always get a shoulder thingy that goes up.
Kevin
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Old 11-06-2012, 7:57 AM
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I have heard of people welding the bayonet to get the OAL 30 inches for CA but never for barrel length. Doubt it can be done that way since it is not actually the barrel... you can always get a shoulder thingy that goes up.
Kevin
It doesn't have to be the barrel. Permanent muzzle devices count towards the overall BARREL length. Even the Tactical Solutions SBX meets the requirements and that is just a very large tube with cutouts.

Maybe the ATF has the interpretation that any permanent extension must encircle the barrel axis. Anyone have have any idea of this.

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Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
I was on a ride-along, and the officer i was with saw a parked car with occupants. He was going up to ask them to move their car and as soon as he gets to the window the passenger says "I have meth under my seat."

I've never understood the self-confessors....

Last edited by XDshooter; 11-06-2012 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 11-06-2012, 9:14 AM
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Over all length is just that OVER ALL LENGTH, regardless of barrel length.

Barrel length is just the length of the barrel and any permanently attached muzzle devices combined length.

There are letters and FAQ pages on how a barrel is measured under ATF regs, There is also a definition of the 30" Over all length for CA.

You can not confuse one with the other.

You can not, at anytime have a barrel mounted to a weapon that is capable of readily accepting a butt stock that is shorter then 16" including the muzzle device outside of a Federal tax stamped SBR. There are also Constructive possession laws that apply here as well that I'm not going to get into as it will derail the topic from it's original question.

Again over all length and barrel length are two different regulations that have to be met under different definitions of the law.
But to cut to the chase your rifle has to be 26" overall length in it's shortest configuration and have a barrel 16" or longer to meet Federal regulation.

In California any semi automatic rifle must also be 30" minimum length in its shortest configuration to not be defined as an assault weapon regardless of features.

Example
If you sawed off an M1 Garand to 29 3/4" it would be an illegal assault weapon yet it has no pistol grip, and no detachable magazine. It is only defined by it's semi auto nature and it's length.
If you welded a bayonet to it to increase the length you are good to go so long as your barrel is also 16" minimum.
I'm only using the Garand here as an example.

So please be very carful in how you configure your weapons, Use the flow charts that this site has put together to stay legal.

Please don't go off on me for details i may have left out. I'm trying to stay on topic and not turn this into a all encompassing review of Federal and state law.
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
Barrel length is just the length of the barrel and any permanently attached muzzle devices combined length.
What constitutes a "muzzle device" though?

Advertised as one?
Completely encircles the bore axis?

This is the issue I am referring too..
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Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
I was on a ride-along, and the officer i was with saw a parked car with occupants. He was going up to ask them to move their car and as soon as he gets to the window the passenger says "I have meth under my seat."

I've never understood the self-confessors....
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by XDshooter View Post
What constitutes a "muzzle device" though?

Advertised as one?
Completely encircles the bore axis?

This is the issue I am referring too..
That's a good question, can you thread a bayonet to match a threaded barrel and have that count as a "muzzle device"?
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Old 11-06-2012, 3:10 PM
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The term Muzzle device is a generic term used to describe either a muzzle brake or a flash hider.

Here is the paragraph from the ATF

"The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured."

The AK 47 slant break is not fully encompassing the barrel but it is on th eOD of the barrel.

Where specific definitions do not exist you must fall back on the spirit of the law and not necessarily the letter of the law.

What I'm getting at is if you welded anything other then a traditionally recognized muzzle device to the side of your barrel to attain the minimum length.

Well you may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride. And I actually doubt you will beat the rap.

I have a question though. Why would you want to push your luck??? All it would take is getting pulled over and your car getting searched to end up in jail on a very poor foundation.
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Dick.
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