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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 05-03-2011, 4:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sreiter View Post

This case is about non-resident CCW ONLY. Thats what will be decide. How you think SHALL ISSUE to residents will be thrown in is beyond me.
Because the Colorado Attorney General claimed that under the 2nd Amendment, the 2A doesn't apply outside of the home. When the AG did they, they called into question the basic question of "bear".

Check your PM's.
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  #42  
Old 05-03-2011, 5:52 PM
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GRAY - pm sent back
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  #43  
Old 05-03-2011, 6:01 PM
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Sreiter, you have good points, I'm not disputing that. There are two sides to all of these things, that's why there has to be litigation.

As far as your comment about if they have such a robust right to bear then why can Denver do what it does? I would contend that they can't, and they will lose this case. Unfortunately that's the way our system works, the government gets to pass bogus laws that are in direct contradiction to superior laws. We don't find out that they "can't" legally do that until it gets litigated.

So how can Denver do what they're doing if they can't "legally" do it. The same way DC and Chicago had handgun bans until Heller and Mcdonald told them its not allowed. They just haven't been told they can't do that yet.
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  #44  
Old 05-03-2011, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
Because the Colorado Attorney General claimed that under the 2nd Amendment, the 2A doesn't apply outside of the home. When the AG did they, they called into question the basic question of "bear".
This seems to be the game changer that makes your case a great one to bring before SCOTUS. Would you tend to agree or am I off base here?
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  #45  
Old 05-03-2011, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
Because the Colorado Attorney General claimed that under the 2nd Amendment, the 2A doesn't apply outside of the home. When the AG did they, they called into question the basic question of "bear".

Check your PM's.
interesting...i didn't see that before....

My non-lawyerly mind is spinning.

On one hand, I can see that expanding the issue, on the other hand, the suit is still a challenge to their "non-residential" [non] issuance.

That Is the question that ultimately would be put before the court. "Does Denver have to issue non-resident ccw permits". as opposed to the question "does the 2a apply outside the home, and therefore must everyone be afforded a means to carry outside the home" That is what you're suing for, isn't it?

So while their AG is offering (what i assume is) various arguments why they don't have to issue because the 2a doesn't exist outside the home, and while I'm sure you will have excellent retorts that will be 100% correct from a con law stand point. I mean wtf was he thinking saying the 2a only exists in the home, with 100,000s if not more gun owners in Co.

I don't think the court will give a blanket ruling "the 2a exists outside so everyone must be issued some form of carry throughout the land."

Depending if, where, and how the judges address that argument, as opposed to simple equal protection arguments, in their opinion, this could open the door for future cases where the question put before the court would be "do we the people have the right to carry outside the home (limited by reasonable regulation) "

Again, they may or may not address the argument. They may aaddress it through dicta.

But at least now i can see what the end game is

thanks grey....lol - I actually asked as one of the first questions what was i missing about this case.....had you answered with your last post....it would have saved a whole lot a time....lolol


thanks....and i actually have nothing further to say....

like i said, maybe i wasnt smart enough to catch on. at least it was because i didnt have enough info....or i'm still not catching on, but i'm think i am, so i'm good with it...lolololol
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  #46  
Old 05-03-2011, 6:17 PM
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It probably doesn't help that I muddy up the water with my sophomoric views on things. lol. Gray's case is incredibly interesting though, so i can't help but be intrigued by the discussion.
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  #47  
Old 05-03-2011, 6:18 PM
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Sreiter, you have good points, I'm not disputing that. There are two sides to all of these things, that's why there has to be litigation.

As far as your comment about if they have such a robust right to bear then why can Denver do what it does? I would contend that they can't, and they will lose this case. Unfortunately that's the way our system works, the government gets to pass bogus laws that are in direct contradiction to superior laws. We don't find out that they "can't" legally do that until it gets litigated.

So how can Denver do what they're doing if they can't "legally" do it. The same way DC and Chicago had handgun bans until Heller and Mcdonald told them its not allowed. They just haven't been told they can't do that yet.
I lived in Denver for 2 years and was very involved with the gun world there. i was taking private lessons from 2 gun site range masters, one is world famous, the other is pretty famous in 3 gun, and was a lt on Denver's PD.

One of my best friends owned(no longer a brick and mortar store), the largest gun store in Co. for 20 years - Dave's guns

There were many challenges to denvers laws, and to my knowledge, denver woon them all. i dont know the outcome of the assualt weapon ban denver had still in pace when the rest of Co expired with the national ban. i know there was a suit, just moved before the outcome, so it didnt matter to me.
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  #48  
Old 05-03-2011, 6:22 PM
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This seems to be the game changer that makes your case a great one to bring before SCOTUS. Would you tend to agree or am I off base here?
if my most recent sophomoric analysis is correct, then i believe it is a game changer, and possible juggernaut ! i know, i know "possible juggernaut" is almost a oxymoron!
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  #49  
Old 05-03-2011, 6:26 PM
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I lived in Denver for 2 years and was very involved with the gun world there. i was taking private lessons from 2 gun site range masters, one is world famous, the other is pretty famous in 3 gun, and was a lt on Denver's PD.

One of my best friends owned(no longer a brick and mortar store), the largest gun store in Co. for 20 years - Dave's guns

There were many challenges to denvers laws, and to my knowledge, denver woon them all. i dont know the outcome of the assualt weapon ban denver had still in pace when the rest of Co expired with the national ban. i know there was a suit, just moved before the outcome, so it didnt matter to me.
Lucky you, I wish I could live there. Someday maybe. I believe there AWB was upheld, I know they also ban open carry (ccw still being shall issue), and I think they have some ammo restrictions within the city limits. So Denver is certainly more strict than the surrounding areas.

I still feel that because this case cuts to the very core of the right to bear arms for self defense that it will have to be looked at with greater scrutiny than the other laws.
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  #50  
Old 05-03-2011, 6:44 PM
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Denver is a great place. If not for the cold, I'd live there forever. Small town feel, with big city convenience. People are genuinely nice. Like mid westeners. I made MANY friends for life there. People took me in like family from the moment i met them.

Night life is great. Some excellent restaurants. Great outdoors close by. Very fitness oriented (i think they're like the 8th leanest city in america), obviously very pro gun, several large colleges, have great free festivals down town with big name bands playing for free (i saw kansas and big bad voodoo daddy play their end of summer bash) and Interestingly enough for a very bible belt, midwest values, red state, they're very progressive. Huge gay community. Their GPP is as big as LA's (i think), and they have as big a swinger community (so i'm told).

The winters i was there were cold, but the snow either didnt stick, or melted within one day. You get -10 one day, and 60 the next. If you dont like the weather, wait a hour or so the saying goes. Obviously, 1/2 hour outta town and things change. Castle Rock will get 6 feet of snow, while denver wont get any.

If you ever do move there, get on the aurora gun clubs list to join. I shot all of the ranges, and this outdoor range is the best (when its not to cold). They have like individual ranges, so, if you and a friend wanna run drills, etc, you have that range to yourself.

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  #51  
Old 05-03-2011, 8:20 PM
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Denver is a great place. If not for the cold, I'd live there forever. Small town feel, with big city convenience. People are genuinely nice. Like mid westeners. I made MANY friends for life there. People took me in like family from the moment i met them.

Night life is great. Some excellent restaurants. Great outdoors close by. Very fitness oriented (i think they're like the 8th leanest city in america), obviously very pro gun, several large colleges, have great free festivals down town with big name bands playing for free (i saw kansas and big bad voodoo daddy play their end of summer bash) and Interestingly enough for a very bible belt, midwest values, red state, they're very progressive. Huge gay community. Their GPP is as big as LA's (i think), and they have as big a swinger community (so i'm told).

The winters i was there were cold, but the snow either didnt stick, or melted within one day. You get -10 one day, and 60 the next. If you dont like the weather, wait a hour or so the saying goes. Obviously, 1/2 hour outta town and things change. Castle Rock will get 6 feet of snow, while denver wont get any.

If you ever do move there, get on the aurora gun clubs list to join. I shot all of the ranges, and this outdoor range is the best (when its not to cold). They have like individual ranges, so, if you and a friend wanna run drills, etc, you have that range to yourself.
I lived there for 4 years, so I know what you're talking about. Unfortunately, living in California now, I can't visit my old state without disarming myself first. I actually liked the winter, because people tend to dress better in the winter with their coats and scarves.

Didn't mean to go too off-topic--I better stop talking about Colorado because it's making me miss it

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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
Because the Colorado Attorney General claimed that under the 2nd Amendment, the 2A doesn't apply outside of the home. When the AG did they, they called into question the basic question of "bear".

Check your PM's.
I never had a CCW from Colorado when I lived there, but I have friends who did, so apparently it's permissive. That's why I'm wondering why AG Suthers is saying that the 2A only refers to inside the home, while the issuing policy is very relaxed.
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  #52  
Old 05-03-2011, 8:38 PM
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I never had a CCW from Colorado when I lived there, but I have friends who did, so apparently it's permissive. That's why I'm wondering why AG Suthers is saying that the 2A only refers to inside the home, while the issuing policy is very relaxed.
Especially with the Colorado Concealed Carry Act having been passed to protect CCW holders within his very own state that argument seems a bit silly.
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  #53  
Old 05-06-2011, 11:05 AM
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interesting...i didn't see that before....

My non-lawyerly mind is spinning.

...snip......
So while their AG is offering (what i assume is) various arguments why they don't have to issue because the 2a doesn't exist outside the home, and while I'm sure you will have excellent retorts that will be 100% correct from a con law stand point. I mean wtf was he thinking saying the 2a only exists in the home, with 100,000s if not more gun owners in Co.
..snip..

But at least now i can see what the end game is

thanks grey....lol - I actually asked as one of the first questions what was i missing about this case.....had you answered with your last post....it would have saved a whole lot a time....lolol


thanks....and i actually have nothing further to say....

like i said, maybe i wasnt smart enough to catch on. at least it was because i didnt have enough info....or i'm still not catching on, but i'm think i am, so i'm good with it...lolololol
WTF he was thinking was Heller was a 'keep and bear' in the home, that was the question SCOTUS was asked. Co's AG was playing the cards he had.
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  #54  
Old 05-06-2011, 1:33 PM
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Heller didn't incorp 2a...McD did
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  #55  
Old 05-27-2011, 11:41 PM
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Ghost post prevention bump to say I'm still as excited about this case, as I am the others, esp. filed in the past week. So having said that, anything new on Peterson?

I also noticed that the Wiki page hasn't been updated to reflect the new title.

No worries though.

Erik.
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Old 05-28-2011, 5:59 AM
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That's nice that Denver is a very liberal shall-issue carry policy. They don't issue to out of state residents (nor does any county in the state). That's the problem.

Residents are not effected by this lawsuit, except violations of their civil rights in the future would now be addressable in federal court rather than just purely state court, especially if we win in the 10th Circuit.
My interest in this appeal is how it would affect states like CA that neither honor any other states' permits nor allow non-residents to apply for a CA permit. CO does recognize my FL resident permit. Sorry if this sounds selfish, but there are a lot of CA residents with CA permits on this board complaining about CO's policy of not recognizing CA permits while not seeing the irony in CA not recognizing any other states' permits resident or not. Maybe we're all a little selfish?
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Old 05-28-2011, 8:03 AM
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My interest in this appeal is how it would affect states like CA that neither honor any other states' permits nor allow non-residents to apply for a CA permit. CO does recognize my FL resident permit. Sorry if this sounds selfish, but there are a lot of CA residents with CA permits on this board complaining about CO's policy of not recognizing CA permits while not seeing the irony in CA not recognizing any other states' permits resident or not. Maybe we're all a little selfish?
I believe the rationale is that Californians have no way of carrying in Denver, as open carry is banned. Since we can't CCW there either, we're left with no way to bear arms. However, anybody can UOC when they come to California. (Well, maybe not for long).
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Old 05-28-2011, 9:00 AM
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thanks for the response.


2 small points..... here you say "First is that this isn't a "future civil right""...however, if you look at my post. i quote you say this is about some future civil right. ....

2nd - heller said nothing of "bear", only keep, in the home.

I hope you prevail, and i'm behind you 100%. I donate to the CGF.

IANAL, my personal view is your case is too broad in scope. I think we need bear in the state you live before we go after reciprocity, especially for non-residents, as i feel it would be to easy to argue "you dont have the right to carry in the state you live". I think that argument is a very compelling one when talking about PoI, or anything to do with citizens of one state being treated as equals of another. Co is affording you the exact same rights as you would find in Ca.

i guess my thinking is more in line with HR822


I hope you're right right and I'm wrong.

best of luck
See emphasis on your post above. That's a huge Maggies Drawers there. Read the NRA amicus in Peruta. They throughly debunk the assertion that Heller only guaranteed the RKBA in the home.
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:31 AM
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I believe the rationale is that Californians have no way of carrying in Denver, as open carry is banned. Since we can't CCW there either, we're left with no way to bear arms. However, anybody can UOC when they come to California. (Well, maybe not for long).
I don't support AB 144, but I don't see much point in UOC. When CA has a way for non-residents to legally CC like my home state of FL does then I'll believe there's real progress in CA gun laws. It would happen a lot faster if Californians didn't elect so many anti 2A people into office. Doing it through the courts takes a really long time. That's not how shall issue happened here in FL.
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Old 05-28-2011, 2:25 PM
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disregard
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Old 07-31-2011, 7:26 PM
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BTT...

Attachment 108590 (from 07/18/2011)

Erik.

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Old 07-31-2011, 7:47 PM
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BTT...

Attachment 108590 (from 07/18/2011)

Erik.
All I can say is Wow, talk about selectively presenting snippets of case law out of context in a not very well disguised attempt to mask what was really stated in those cases and support their own agenda. Just Wow. It's like they really believe if they pull out a couple partial sentances from the Heller decision, wrap them in their own verbal BS, that they can re-engineer what those decisions said in their own words.
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Old 07-31-2011, 8:05 PM
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BTT...

Attachment 108590 (from 07/18/2011)

Erik.
I tried... I just don't have the stomach for that this evening. I'm starting to get nauseated by the intellectually dishonest argument that Heller and McDonald don't implicate 2A rights outside the home. I really hope the Supreme Court decides to clarify this in Masciandaro.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:53 PM
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If I were a judge, I'd probably be more than a bit upset if an amicus brief like that one was given to me. Its almost insulting to expect that one would be fooled by such obvious use of quotes entirely out of context.
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Old 08-01-2011, 2:35 PM
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More of the same from the Bradys-using 19th century law prohibiting CCW, while ignoring open carry. And of course, blood in the streets talk.
Is CO going to fight this battle for Denver, or can they just tell the court,"Yea,we think they should be LOC, just like the rest of the state."?
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Old 08-01-2011, 2:49 PM
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More of the same from the Bradys-using 19th century law prohibiting CCW, while ignoring open carry. And of course, blood in the streets talk.
Is CO going to fight this battle for Denver, or can they just tell the court,"Yea,we think they should be LOC, just like the rest of the state."?
You are not alone seeing that pattern.

The anti-rights crowd, in some attempt to create a record that presupposes gun control at our nation's foundation, have all of a sudden reached back over the pond to English Common Law at that same time.

This is making its way into the defense position nationwide. Obviously they talk.

Heller opened the door by citing English Law to lend credence to the idea that this was a fundamental issue. Apparently the other side sees this as a chance to literally use the King's gun control measures to bolster their argument. It's a stretch. Heller also noted that the violation of some of those original Common Law understandings resulted in a little thing called the American Revolution.

My note to the gun control historians: don't stop at 1775. Add one year and open the history books. See how that turned out for the Empire. We didn't exactly follow their rules.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:12 AM
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Garcia says no brief, saying that Colorado CRS §18-12-213 is completely silent as to the administration and implementation of the statute, and they (among other reasons) are not filing a brief for that (in addition to one other) reason.

It's 4 pages, so an easy read.

Erik.

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Old 08-04-2011, 10:32 AM
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Basically: "It's the state's fault. Don't blame us. We're outta here."

Go Gray.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:52 AM
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Is there case law in this, or other CA courts that says "you can't point blame to some other Government Entity for causing you to be and use it to not file a (reply) brief for this type of reason"?

Erik.

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Old 08-04-2011, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Notice of non-filing
5. The two statutes at issue in this lawsuit are state statutes and the City and
County of Denver has no legal obligation to defend the constitutionality of state
statutes.
From a logical view, that kinda makes sense to me. In the legal sense (not always the same as logical) I never thought it quite worked that way. This will be an interesting one.
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Old 08-04-2011, 2:10 PM
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Is there case law in this, or other CA courts that says "you can't point blame to some other Government Entity for causing you to be and use it to not file a (reply) brief for this type of reason"?

Erik.
I'd like to see what caselaw is made of this. Does the court tell the entity being sued(Denver sheriff) that the OC ban is unenforceable, or tell the state to alter its CCW practices? Seems unlikely Denver(or CO) would win a case in which neither wants to do anything, but heck who knows.
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Old 10-28-2011, 3:37 PM
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Any news in this case?
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Old 10-28-2011, 4:02 PM
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Any news in this case?
Oral arguments are set to happen 11/17 at 08:30. Not sure whether there will be audio cast, or maybe televised? Gray?

Erik.
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  #74  
Old 10-28-2011, 4:23 PM
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Oral arguments are set to happen 11/17 at 08:30. Not sure whether there will be audio cast, or maybe televised? Gray?

Erik.
I think I remember Gray saying he isn't going to be present for the arguments. Maybe we could track down somebody from rocky mountain gun owners to see if they will have anyone in attendance.

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Old 10-29-2011, 2:19 AM
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Oral arguments are set to happen 11/17 at 08:30. Not sure whether there will be audio cast, or maybe televised? Gray?

Erik.
The 10th circuit website says 30$ for audio recordings. I don't know if Gray will get it for free since it's his case. Then we'll have to see if it can be posted.
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Old 10-29-2011, 5:26 AM
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I think I remember Gray saying he isn't going to be present for the arguments. Maybe we could track down somebody from rocky mountain gun owners to see if they will have anyone in attendance.

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I wouldn't involve Rocky Mountain Gun Owners in this. Dudley and I have had some major issues and I wouldn't trust anything he had to say about my case, given what he's said about HR822. He would likely claim that I'm trying to enshrine licensing as a constitutional standard or some other BS (which isn't actually true).
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Old 10-29-2011, 6:55 AM
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The 10th circuit website says 30$ for audio recordings. I don't know if Gray will get it for free since it's his case. Then we'll have to see if it can be posted.
All things being equal, plaintiffs do not get free audio. I already messaged the court clerk and asked, we'll see what they say, and we'll make arrangements from there.

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Old 10-29-2011, 6:30 PM
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Looking at the original documents, there's a huge parallel between this case and Mishaga v Monken even though it's CCW v FOID. It's all about a state not issuing a permit to a non-resident, and the non-resident wanting a permit in order to comply with the laws of the State.

Amiright?
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Old 10-29-2011, 7:40 PM
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Looking at the original documents, there's a huge parallel between this case and Mishaga v Monken even though it's CCW v FOID. It's all about a state not issuing a permit to a non-resident, and the non-resident wanting a permit in order to comply with the laws of the State.

Amiright?
Basically, yes. Even absent a fundamental incorporated 2A, the non issuance to non residents was probably unconstitutional under the right to travel.

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Old 10-29-2011, 8:42 PM
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All things being equal, plaintiffs do not get free audio. I already messaged the court clerk and asked, we'll see what they say, and we'll make arrangements from there.

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