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Calguns Concealed Carry County Information Forum Information on how to get a LTC in yourCounty

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  #1  
Old 10-18-2010, 2:20 PM
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Default DOJ Standard Application Form Discussion

Lots of issues in there... let's get to work!

We'd like to:

a) analyze the form for errors, redundancies and illegal requirements, and
b) create an alternative which complies with the law.

Fillable PDF here.
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Last edited by obeygiant; 10-21-2010 at 8:18 PM.. Reason: fixed the form and new link
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Old 10-18-2010, 2:27 PM
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Application in PDF Form.


Here


Is Investigators Interview Notes Question 3 a violation of the 5th Amendment?
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Old 10-18-2010, 2:27 PM
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After reviewing 12050 I do not see any statutory permission for the DOJ to specify which handguns you can carry once you are issued your CCW. Is there any such authority given to DOJ?
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Old 10-18-2010, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by putput View Post
Application in PDF Form.


Here


Is Investigators Interview Notes Question 3 a violation of the 5th Amendment?
I suspect that 2, 3, 4, and 5 could all be violations as any answer other than No, could potentially be a confession to a crime for which you were never charged and could conceivably still be charged.
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Old 10-18-2010, 3:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
After reviewing 12050 I do not see any statutory permission for the DOJ to specify which handguns you can carry once you are issued your CCW. Is there any such authority given to DOJ?
So, the problem isn't 12050, it's the exceptions to 12031 that make a 12050 license useful.

12031 says you can't carry a loaded firearm. It then lists a bunch of exceptions, including 12031(b)(6):

Quote:
The carrying of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person by persons who are authorized to carry those weapons pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4.
Now, if you review Section 12050, it says (way way down in a bunch of letters and numbers it would be a serious pain for me to parse at the moment) that you can add a particular pistol to your license:

Quote:
Add or delete authority to carry a particular pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
I think a pissy D.A. could claim the "those weapons" in the loaded section points back to the list implied (or made explicitly if I missed it) in 12050, and thus any weapon not listed with the Sheriff's department isn't exempt from 12031.
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Old 10-18-2010, 3:14 PM
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I'm a little more concerned with the "add or delete" section as one could easily be authorized to carry "those weapons" if the permit merely said, "handguns" or "all pistols and revolvers"
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Old 10-18-2010, 3:16 PM
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How about removing the number of guns on the permit (usually max of three)?

Right now the convention wisdom practiced by most issuing agencies is that you can only have three guns on your permit; that's because the application only has three lines, as does the permit. However, there is nothing in the law stating such.

As of now, if you want to add/remove a gun, it's an extra trip to the Sheriff's Office (or PD) and extra cost, because pretty much everyone requires you to qualify with each weapon (not sure if that is driven by the law or not.)

More "progressive" counties don't follow the above; they let you carry whatever number of weapons will fit on the back of the permit.
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Old 10-18-2010, 3:21 PM
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For comparison, here's what Utah uses for their form: http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/doc...ccwapp_008.pdf

.
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Old 10-18-2010, 3:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
How about removing the number of guns on the permit (usually max of three)?

Right now the convention wisdom practiced by most issuing agencies is that you can only have three guns on your permit; that's because the application only has three lines, as does the permit. However, there is nothing in the law stating such.

As of now, if you want to add/remove a gun, it's an extra trip to the Sheriff's Office (or PD) and extra cost, because pretty much everyone requires you to qualify with each weapon (not sure if that is driven by the law or not.)

More "progressive" counties don't follow the above; they let you carry whatever number of weapons will fit on the back of the permit.
well, the permit app doesn't limit you to 3, it specifically says to use an additional sheet of paper if you need to list more.

Quote:
List below the weapons you desire to carry if granted a CCW. You may carry concealed only
the weapon(s) which you list and describe herein, and only for the purpose indicated. Any
misuse will cause an automatic revocation and possible arrest. (Use additional pages if
necessary
.)
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Old 10-18-2010, 3:42 PM
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Many counties do attempt in their policy to limit the number, type or disposition of carry firearms.

If the firearms cannot be required to be registered, then why list them at all?
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Old 10-18-2010, 3:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
As of now, if you want to add/remove a gun, it's an extra trip to the Sheriff's Office (or PD) and extra cost, because pretty much everyone requires you to qualify with each weapon (not sure if that is driven by the law or not.)
'Qualification' is itself an issue - this isn't specified anywhere as a 'training' requirement.
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Old 10-18-2010, 4:02 PM
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perhaps folks with extensive collections should list EVERY concealable firearm they own. It shouldn't take long for sheriffs to start just putting down "any pistol or revolver."
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Old 10-18-2010, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
perhaps folks with extensive collections should list EVERY concealable firearm they own. It shouldn't take long for sheriffs to start just putting down "any pistol or revolver."
no it wouldn't they get paid by the hour and love OT
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Old 10-18-2010, 5:52 PM
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Alameda County:

Quote:
Page 3:
FURTHER REQUIREMENTS AND FEES: CCW license fees vary from $200 to $244, depending on the type of license (you will be notified when to remit fees). A psychological evaluation may be required; conducted by a licensed psychologist contracting with Sheriff’s Office; with a fee of $150. There is also a charge of $150 for any additional psychological testing required.
So in this part, there are 2 or more different types of CCW licenses, and this leads me to believe that one is for "the immortals", and the rest for "the peasants".

Quote:
Page 3:
You will be required to carry and provide proof of a $1 million personal liability insurance policy, pay a $50 range fee, and qualify with your weapon at the Sheriff’s range facility; and supply your own ammunition and “strong hand” shooting holster (shoulder and cross-draw holsters are not allowed on range).
Wow, $1 Million personal liability insurance. That's a high dollar arbitrary requirement that will cost them likely as much, or more.

Quote:
Page 11:
II. POLICY: The Sheriff's Office recognizes that there may be circumstances that justify the issuance of a concealed weapon license; however, it also recognizes the potential for the use of deadly force and the grave responsibility that goes with the granting of that privilege. Carrying a concealed weapon is a privilege, not a right. The issuance of a Concealed Weapon License is at the discretion of the Sheriff.
Interesting how they emphasize that the carrying of a CCW is a privilege AFTER mentioning "the grave responsibility that goes with the granting of that privilege". I feel that this latter statement was placed there because they could foretell just about everyone saying "Excuse me, it's not a privilege".

Read my letter to the Sheriff, and his reply here

Looking through for more arbitrary requirements.

EDITED:
Whoops, I didn't look carefully at the OP's post regarding the particular form. I'll delete this and post to a different forum. Emphasize, these comments above are based on Alameda County's application policy.

Erik.

Last edited by Window_Seat; 10-18-2010 at 5:58 PM..
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  #15  
Old 10-18-2010, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Window_Seat View Post
So in this part, there are 2 or more different types of CCW licenses, and this leads me to believe that one is for "the immortals", and the rest for "the peasants".
If you look at 12050(2)(A)(ii), there's a concept of a 90-day license:

Quote:
If the licensee's place of employment or business was the basis for issuance of the license pursuant to subparagraph (A) of paragraph (1), the license is valid for any period of time not to exceed 90 days from the date of the license. The license shall be valid only in the county in which the license was originally issued. The licensee shall give a copy of this license to the licensing authority of the city, county, or city and county in which he or she resides. The licensing authority that originally issued the license shall inform the licensee verbally and in writing in at least 16-point type of this obligation to give a copy of the license to the licensing authority of the city, county, or city and county of residence. Any application to renew or extend the validity of, or reissue, the license may be granted only upon the concurrence of the licensing authority that originally issued the license and the licensing authority of the city, county, or city and county in which the licensee resides.
There's also another license for LEOs, and another for judges, etc., etc.

Now, Alameda's up to a lot of other bogus things, but multiple license types are in the law.
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  #16  
Old 10-18-2010, 5:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Window_Seat View Post


So in this part, there are 2 or more different types of CCW licenses, and this leads me to believe that one is for "the immortals", and the rest for "the peasants"..
there are different types of CCW licenses, from the PDF you quoted from:

Quote:
ORDER: California Penal Code Section 12050 establishes four different categories for which
the Sheriff may issue a license to carry a concealed weapon.
A. TYPES OF LICENSES:
1. EMPLOYMENT. This license may be issued by the Sheriff of a county to a person
who spends a substantial period of time in his/her principal place of employment or
business in the county. This license can only be issued by the Sheriff, and is only
valid in the county of issuance for a period of time not to exceed 90 days. The
licensee must give a copy of their CCW license to the Chief of Police or Sheriff in the
city or county in which they reside. This license can only be renewed upon
concurrence of the Chief of Police or Sheriff in the city or county in which the
licensee resides.
2. STANDARD. These licenses may be issued to qualified residents who live within
Alameda County. Such CCW licenses are valid for any period of time not to exceed
two years.
3. JUDGES/COMMISSIONERS. This license may be issued to California judges and
full-time court commissioners and to federal judges and magistrates of federal courts.
Such CCW licenses may be valid for any period of time not to exceed three years.
4. RESERVE PEACE OFFICER/CUSTODIAL OFFICER. These licenses may be
issued to reserve peace officers/custodial officers appointed pursuant to Section 830.6
and 831.5 respectively of the Penal Code. Such CCW licenses are valid for any
period of time not to exceed four years, except that such license shall be invalid upon
General Order 1.04 Page 2 of 6
the conclusion of the person's appointment as a reserve police officer or custodial
officer.
since each type has a different period of validity, I could see there being a different fee for each one.
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Old 10-18-2010, 6:01 PM
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Ah ha, I stand corrected on that. At any rate, I made a bit of a boo boo, and didn't read the OPs instructions carefully enough (too much excitement), and should not have posted the Alameda County policy here, or maybe it's alright here. If necessary, I can delete it and post it elsewhere.

Erik.
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Old 10-18-2010, 6:22 PM
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Quote:
While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee
shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:
• Consume any alcoholic beverage.
Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption.
Be under the influence of any medication or drug, whether prescribed or not.
• Refuse to show the license or surrender the concealed weapon to any peace officer upon demand.
• Impede any peace officer in the performance of his/her duties.
• Present himself/herself as a peace officer to any person unless he/she is, in fact, a peace officer as defined by California law.
• Unjustifiably display a concealed weapon.
Carry a concealed weapon not listed on the permit.
• Carry a concealed weapon at times or circumstances other than those specified in the permit.
Items in bold:
  • It's not a "privilege".
  • I imagine that barroom carry could become an issue, especially with other states passing legislation that legalizes barroom carry as long as one doesn't get plastered.
  • Medications: I could be taking "Protonix" (for Acid Reflux and Esophageal Spasms). I could also have taken an Ibuprofen because I'm having an ankle flair up (from past surgeries). I realize they could be referring to Vicodin, Soma, and other legal/illegal narcotic drugs, and being "under the influence", but even then, suppose I just got released from the surgery center from my ingrown nail, and I'm going to be in pain. I go to the Pharmacy, and they give me Vicodin, and I take one. Does my carry rights end there all together? Does this make me no longer a LAC, and prohibit me because of something that was out of my control?

    I realize I chose to take the pain medication, but I am doing so legally, and taking legally prescribed pain medication is supposed to be a legally protected activity, is it not?
  • I'm starting to learn that the 3 gun limit might not be legal.
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Old 10-18-2010, 6:33 PM
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Okay,... this is the "Standard Application for License to Carry a Concealed Weapon".

Has anyone obtained the "Standard Application for License to Carrry Loaded Exposed" as has been made available in;

Quote:
12050 (a)(1)(A)(ii)Where the population of the county is less than 200,000 persons according to the most recent federal decennial census, a license to carry loaded and exposed in that county a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
Or is the Standard Application for License to Carry a Concealed Weapon used, with amendments?
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Old 10-19-2010, 7:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
That form has typos in it, see my post here.
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Old 10-21-2010, 8:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyGuy View Post
That form has typos in it, see my post here.
Most likely due to being scanned and the OCR software wasn't able to correctly identify the characters. Either way, good catch. I will locate another fillable form or just create a new one and post it up.
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Old 10-21-2010, 8:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyGuy View Post
That form has typos in it, see my post here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by obeygiant View Post
Most likely due to being scanned and the OCR software wasn't able to correctly identify the characters. Either way, good catch. I will locate another fillable form or just create a new one and post it up.
Form has been fixed, you can download it here
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Old 10-22-2010, 5:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
no it wouldn't they get paid by the hour and love OT
The list of firearms would not fit conveniently on the permit.
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Old 10-22-2010, 6:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
The list of firearms would not fit conveniently on the permit.
All the more reason to get rid of a "CCW gun list" on the permit. Especially since a lot of counties now use a plastic ID card style now.
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Old 10-22-2010, 6:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
I suspect that 2, 3, 4, and 5 could all be violations as any answer other than No, could potentially be a confession to a crime for which you were never charged and could conceivably still be charged.
In all reality, if you are asnwering yes, you might one of those people that will never get a CCW as you hit the limit on those 'restricted' people alluded to in Heller. So, yes, the law can't stop you from applying, but c'mon, if you haven't read the form before you fill it out, don't understand what you are trying to apply for, and don't understand Heller, even from a plebian standpoint, you probably are headed to eventually defending yourself against those possible law violations anyhow.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:03 AM
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I suggest that this will be more productive if it skips "what would we like the form to be" ("check box if you would like one") and instead focuses on "where is the form clearly or arguably out of compliance with the law." Changing the law is the legislature's job; implementing the law fairly, correctly, etc. is the executive's job (i.e. the DOJ's job.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGOTDIRT4U View Post
All the more reason to get rid of a "CCW gun list" on the permit. Especially since a lot of counties now use a plastic ID card style now.
Roll back to post 5; the_quark addressed this. PC12050(f)(1)(a) is either meaningless (a proposition courts are inclined to reject) or it means that the issuing authority can authorize and de-authorise "particular" etc. etc. However, there is no statutory support for 3, and it's arguable that make&model would be sufficiently particular. On this scheme, the form should read something like
List below the make and model of each firearm you desire to carry if granted a CCW. You may carry concealed only the weapon(s) which you list and describe herein. (Use additional pages if necessary.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by putput
Is Investigators Interview Notes Question 3 a violation of the 5th Amendment?
Probably not (pending examination by a 5th expert) -- you are voluntarily making these statements, not being forced to testify. The fact that a truthful answer may result in denial of the permit is not relevant to the 5th, but it is a different question: can you be legally denied a permit for the reason specified in question 3? If you cannot be denied a permit for that reason, then the question is improper, and should be struck.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:25 AM
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The sheriff has no power to determine which guns can be put on the license, period. Their only discretionary power is good cause and good moral character.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IGOTDIRT4U View Post
In all reality, if you are asnwering yes, you might one of those people that will never get a CCW as you hit the limit on those 'restricted' people alluded to in Heller. So, yes, the law can't stop you from applying, but c'mon, if you haven't read the form before you fill it out, don't understand what you are trying to apply for, and don't understand Heller, even from a plebian standpoint, you probably are headed to eventually defending yourself against those possible law violations anyhow.
These are law enforcement personnel anything you say, can and will be used against you. I should have said that asking the question is not a violation of 5A but being compelled to answer them to exercise a fundamental right surely is.

If pertinent information shows up in other background investigations then it MIGHT have an impact on your ability to get approved though I suspect that soon enough it will be "good to possess, good to carry"
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:08 AM
lairdb lairdb is offline
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The sheriff has no power to determine which guns can be put on the license, period. Their only discretionary power is good cause and good moral character.
No argument. Didn't say they had discretion (although re-reading, I did sortof imply that; didn't necessarily mean to.)

So, let's say it differently: PC12050(f)(1)(a) specifies a ministerial responsibility of the issuing authority, which they are required to exercise without discretion. (The only other interpretation I can come up with is that the clause is meaningless and therefore void, which goes against everything I understand of statutory interpretation.) One could, therefore, argue that it doesn't belong on the application -- but it does seem a convenient place for it.
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Old 10-22-2010, 1:53 PM
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Probably not (pending examination by a 5th expert) -- you are voluntarily making these statements, not being forced to testify. The fact that a truthful answer may result in denial of the permit is not relevant to the 5th, but it is a different question: can you be legally denied a permit for the reason specified in question 3? If you cannot be denied a permit for that reason, then the question is improper, and should be struck.
The Investigator's Interview Note #3 is:

"3. Are you now, or have you ever been, addicted to a controlled substance or alcohol, or have you ever utilized an illegal controlled substance, or have you ever reported to a detoxification or drug treatment program? No_____Yes_____ (If yes, explain):"

I couldn't find anywhere on this form where it specifies that answering "Yes" to any of these things would necessarily result in denial of a permit. I suppose just about anything could be used to evaluate "moral character", good or otherwise.

One thing it does do is provide the interviewer an opportunity to check the applicant's background in the event of a "No" answer. If the Investigator subsequently finds that the applicant had been in, say, a drug treatment program, that would be grounds not only for immediate denial of permit, but for arrest for a felony (from page 8 of the application):

"Penal Code Section 12051 – Applications for CCW Licenses; False Statements
(b) Any person who files an application required by subdivision (a) knowing that statements contained therein
are false is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(c) Any person who knowingly makes a false statement on the application regarding any of the following shall be
guilty of a felony:
(1) The denial or revocation of a license, or the denial of an amendment to a license, issued pursuant to
Section 12050.
(2) A criminal conviction.
(3) A finding of not guilty by reason of insanity.
(4) The use of a controlled substance.
(5) A dishonorable discharge from military service.
(6) A commitment to a mental institution.
(7) A renunciation of United States citizenship."

All of the questions in the Investigator's Interview Notes section go well beyond the elements that would disqualify a person from gun ownership. I particularly like #4:

"4. Have you ever been involved in an incident involving firearms?
No_____Yes_____ (If yes, explain):"

What's that supposed to mean? Or how about #2?:

"2. Have you ever been in a mental institution, treated for mental illness, or been found not-guilty by reason of insanity ? No_____Yes_____ (If yes, explain):"

Well, that clause between the commas covers a lot of ground. #6 is interesting as well:

"6. List any arrests or formal charges, with or without disposition, for any criminal
offenses with the U.S. or any other country (civilian or military)."

"with or without disposition"??? Again, the ambiguous clause cleverly sandwiched in the middle. Who writes this stuff?

Finally, my favorite, from the Applicant Clearance Questions:

"10. Have you witheld any fact that might affect the decision to approve this license?"

Anything you say can and will be held against you.
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Old 10-24-2010, 7:48 AM
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Thanks RipVanWinkle. I was wondering about the could be compelled part and a conflict with two constitutional rights. If it’s on the form and you won’t answer or answer “Yes” and are denied then I don’t think it can legally be on the form. I know there’s bigger issues to address now but, I’m thinking down the line.


IGotDirt4U, I just thought it was interesting that the last three guys with their finger on the trigger of the world’s largest and most deadly arsenal would have to answer yes on that question. Clinton for Pot, Bush for Cocaine, and Obama for pot again. I do think that maybe Clinton could still say No since not inhaling would not be utilization?
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Old 10-25-2010, 1:10 PM
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Ripvanwinkle:

Some of those questions give me heartburn.

Not really sure how to answer #3. I'm not entirely sure what they mean by "reporting". I've literally never even experimented with an illegal drug. Never drunk a drop of an alcoholic beverage, but I've been to AA as an observer, been to multiple drug treatment facilities as part of my work/training. Technically, I may still have to answer "yes" - because I "reported" for duty.

To your #4: I've got a combat badge from Afghanistan? So obviously I get flagged on that one as well. . . And no, as I was medical I never had to shoot at anyone, but I did have to brandish.

#2: Duh, I've been in multiple mental institutions - but never as a patient or to be treated. But I'd have to say, "yes". Heck, one of the places was also technically a jail.

The questions suck.
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Old 10-25-2010, 1:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by putput View Post
.
.
.
Clinton for Pot, Bush for Cocaine, and Obama for pot again.
I don't know of any good evidence that Bush used cocaine. Some reason to believe Clinton did (but not at all certain), but Obama did use cocaine and pot (admitted to it).

Bush had a problem with alcohol. Not sure he used pot but it certainly would not surprise me. There's a book trumpeting an arrest of a George Bush from Midland, TX for cocaine use - but that guy was never elected to the presidency (different DOB). Maybe Bush did use cocaine (no flat denial that I know of) but there's no good evidence of it that I know of.
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Old 10-25-2010, 2:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Window_Seat View Post
Items in bold:
  • It's not a "privilege".
  • I imagine that barroom carry could become an issue, especially with other states passing legislation that legalizes barroom carry as long as one doesn't get plastered.
  • Medications: I could be taking "Protonix" (for Acid Reflux and Esophageal Spasms). I could also have taken an Ibuprofen because I'm having an ankle flair up (from past surgeries). I realize they could be referring to Vicodin, Soma, and other legal/illegal narcotic drugs, and being "under the influence", but even then, suppose I just got released from the surgery center from my ingrown nail, and I'm going to be in pain. I go to the Pharmacy, and they give me Vicodin, and I take one. Does my carry rights end there all together? Does this make me no longer a LAC, and prohibit me because of something that was out of my control?

    I realize I chose to take the pain medication, but I am doing so legally, and taking legally prescribed pain medication is supposed to be a legally protected activity, is it not?
  • I'm starting to learn that the 3 gun limit might not be legal.
You can't legally operate a vehicle while under the influence of legally prescribed Vicoden either. So you could go to the pharmacy and get your perscription, but just dont take one till you get home.
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Old 11-02-2010, 8:50 AM
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Bump! Has someone actually started editing/revising the form yet?
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Old 11-22-2010, 3:39 AM
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All of section 7 is titled "Investigator's Interview Notes"

If it is the Investigator's notes then why are we filling it out? Shouldn't the investigator fill it out? If the Investigator is filling it out then for questions 2-6 then you can just answer the questions as vaguely as possible and let them put down what they want.

For example: The interviewer asks me question #3. I then answer I am not addicted to any controlled substance and do not attend a drug treatment program.

I very well may have been addicted at one time and in a program but I only answered that I am currently not addicted or in a program. If the interviewer does not pick up on that and marks no then it is their fault not mine.
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Old 11-23-2010, 5:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chewy352 View Post
All of section 7 is titled "Investigator's Interview Notes"

If it is the Investigator's notes then why are we filling it out? Shouldn't the investigator fill it out? If the Investigator is filling it out then for questions 2-6 then you can just answer the questions as vaguely as possible and let them put down what they want.

For example: The interviewer asks me question #3. I then answer I am not addicted to any controlled substance and do not attend a drug treatment program.

I very well may have been addicted at one time and in a program but I only answered that I am currently not addicted or in a program. If the interviewer does not pick up on that and marks no then it is their fault not mine.
The problem I'm having with this, is that, in any event, the applicant is being asked to answer questions the answer to which could be protected under the 5th Amendment. This would be true whether the applicant fills out the questionnaire in advance, or he/she is aked the questions during the interview. I'd hate to think how the interview would go if one started to respectfully refuse to answer on 5th Amendment grounds.
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Old 12-09-2010, 3:49 PM
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The fillable PDF does not allow you to save your changes to a local copy, at least not with a Reader. Could somebody who has a full version of Acrobat create a copy of this PDF for us to use that allows us to save copies with our form entries? (Like the Oregon PDF does.) That way we can all have our forms filled out and ready to go when it's time to flood our particular county with apps!
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Old 12-09-2010, 7:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
The fillable PDF does not allow you to save your changes to a local copy, at least not with a Reader. Could somebody who has a full version of Acrobat create a copy of this PDF for us to use that allows us to save copies with our form entries? (Like the Oregon PDF does.) That way we can all have our forms filled out and ready to go when it's time to flood our particular county with apps!

I will work on that tonight.
Try this version Here
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Old 12-10-2010, 7:52 AM
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Try this version Here
That works. Thanks!
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