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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #121  
Old 11-18-2013, 3:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post

If the Sheriff wants to add that restriction printed on your LTC, that's within his power.
Oh I know. Just wasn't sure if that was yet another little PC change slipped in and added. If something like that flew under the radar, what other changes may have been missed...etc. Just thinking along those lines.
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  #122  
Old 01-28-2014, 6:53 PM
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I didn't see it in the OP, but isn't it illegal to carry in a polling place?
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  #123  
Old 01-29-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I didn't see it in the OP, but isn't it illegal to carry in a polling place?
Nope - there is discussion on this within the firs 15 posts or so of the thread.

I used to Open Carry to the polling place with great regularity (back when it was legal to open carry)
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  #124  
Old 01-29-2014, 10:51 AM
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See post #9 and http://law.onecle.com/california/elections/18544.html

You can conceal carry at a polling place if you are not "posted at or stationed at" a polling place. Going there to vote does not prohibit you from carrying a firearm.
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  #125  
Old 01-29-2014, 7:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harbinger007 View Post
See post #9 and http://law.onecle.com/california/elections/18544.html

You can conceal carry at a polling place if you are not "posted at or stationed at" a polling place. Going there to vote does not prohibit you from carrying a firearm.

kinda funny cause I was banned from the other gun forum for supporting this position and admitting that I did in fact carry while voting.
I was respectful in my opinion but as soon as I admitted to carrying while voting a few years ago they banned me without explaination.
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  #126  
Old 01-30-2014, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harbinger007 View Post
See post #9 and http://law.onecle.com/california/elections/18544.html

You can conceal carry at a polling place if you are not "posted at or stationed at" a polling place. Going there to vote does not prohibit you from carrying a firearm.
Thank you for that clarification. I must have read that statute 10 times, but didn't clue in on what you quoted.

I hate the way laws are written.

Sorry for bringing this up again.
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  #127  
Old 02-13-2014, 7:28 AM
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For the sake of this thread are "schools" and California State Universities, University of California and Community Colleges synonymous? Specifically for someone visiting a college campus, not a student on the campus.


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  #128  
Old 02-13-2014, 7:41 AM
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OK,, just so I completely understand, I am looking at the Park Ordnances page for the American River Parkway in Sacramento Co. and in section 9.36.060 is see this:

9.36.060 Firearms, Air Guns, and Other Weapons.
No person other than peace officers in the discharge of their duties shall use, maintain, possess, fire, or discharge any firearm, air gun, spring gun, bow and arrow, slingshot, or any other weapon potentially dangerous to wildlife or human safety, except in areas, at times, and under conditions designated by the director for such use. A violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor. (SCC 576 § 15, 1983.)

I carry all the time on the bike trail and this is looking like I am in violation of county ordnances. Comments?




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  #129  
Old 02-13-2014, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zonzin View Post
For the sake of this thread are "schools" and California State Universities, University of California and Community Colleges synonymous? Specifically for someone visiting a college campus, not a student on the campus.


.
Colleges and universities are covered in their own subsection of 626.9 [626.9(i)]; a valid LTC is a listed exemption from legal prohibition from carrying on college/university property and campuses, as well as an exemption from such prohibition for K-12.

Campus police departments are variable in how they view this. One should not be surprised to be asked to leave.
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  #130  
Old 02-13-2014, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by zonzin View Post
OK,, just so I completely understand, I am looking at the Park Ordnances page for the American River Parkway in Sacramento Co. and in section 9.36.060 is see this:

9.36.060 Firearms, Air Guns, and Other Weapons.
No person other than peace officers in the discharge of their duties shall use, maintain, possess, fire, or discharge any firearm, air gun, spring gun, bow and arrow, slingshot, or any other weapon potentially dangerous to wildlife or human safety, except in areas, at times, and under conditions designated by the director for such use. A violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor. (SCC 576 § 15, 1983.)

I carry all the time on the bike trail and this is looking like I am in violation of county ordnances. Comments?

.
That's how I would interpret that; there seems to be no exception for LTC holders.
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  #131  
Old 02-13-2014, 3:38 PM
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True. No exceptions for LTCers on American River Parkway, or in Sac County regional parks, or in Sac County buildings, or in City of Sac parks or buildings, or in Cosumnes CSD parks or buildings, or...
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  #132  
Old 02-13-2014, 6:49 PM
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So how does state preemption play into this?
Does not the state regulate the issuance as well as the time and place restrictions of concealed carry, therefor they hold the authority over this issue?
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  #133  
Old 02-13-2014, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
So how does state preemption play into this?
Does not the state regulate the issuance as well as the time and place restrictions of concealed carry, therefor they hold the authority over this issue?
State pre-emption is very narrow - see the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/St...Gun_Regulation
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  #134  
Old 02-14-2014, 5:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
True. No exceptions for LTCers on American River Parkway, or in Sac County regional parks, or in Sac County buildings, or in City of Sac parks or buildings, or in Cosumnes CSD parks or buildings, or...
Well that sucks. If ever there was a place to carry the bike trail would be it, especially when you get closer to Discovery Park.



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  #135  
Old 02-14-2014, 7:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
.....

Campus police departments are variable in how they view this. One should not be surprised to be asked to leave.
Only if they know I have it. Concealed is concealed.



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  #136  
Old 02-14-2014, 11:19 AM
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State pre-emption is very narrow - see the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/St...Gun_Regulation

A lot more narrow than I thought it would be.
I am thinking this would not hold up to judicial scrutiny.
How would these local governments explain that their parks are worthy of special consideration to violate the rights of individuals to carry a firearm for personal protect?
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  #137  
Old 02-14-2014, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
A lot more narrow than I thought it would be.
I am thinking this would not hold up to judicial scrutiny.
How would these local governments explain that their parks are worthy of special consideration to violate the rights of individuals to carry a firearm for personal protect?
The argument has been attempted vs San Mateo County, with very negative results. Too soon; we need Peruta to be affirmed before that can be tried again, I think.
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  #138  
Old 02-19-2014, 8:04 AM
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Well I wrote the Sac Co parks folks asking about CCW on the ARBT,, Here was their response.

According to our county attorneys the local ordinance supercedes the CCW, so one may not carry in the park.



Stan Lumsden

Chief Ranger

(916)875-3030

.
Sucks we can't defend ourselves in a place where violent crimes occur.

http://www.regionalparks.saccounty.n...anuary2012.pdf


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  #139  
Old 02-19-2014, 1:20 PM
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I may have missed it, but on the CCW application it says:
Quote:
While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee shall not, when carrying a
concealed weapon:
Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption.
Wouldn't this make a bar off limits? I know there isn't a "law" saying this, but it does fall under the ability of the issuing authority to add a restriction, doesn't it?

See page 5 here: http://www.sacsheriff.com/organizati...cw-doj-app.pdf
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  #140  
Old 02-19-2014, 3:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I may have missed it, but on the CCW application it says:


Wouldn't this make a bar off limits? I know there isn't a "law" saying this, but it does fall under the ability of the issuing authority to add a restriction, doesn't it?

See page 5 here: http://www.sacsheriff.com/organizati...cw-doj-app.pdf
If the issuing agency wants to add that restriction to the actual license handed to you, yes, that would be a a legal exercise of power granted to the agency.

Some people look at the app and believe things written there apply as law; since the PC says differently, I maintain that is inaccurate. But there is a criminal case in Sacramento which may clarify that.

Until such time as a court says differently, there are no restrictions in state law on LTC and alcohol. The wisdom of that combination is left to the individual.
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  #141  
Old 02-19-2014, 9:12 PM
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Ignoring what you agreed to on the application seems counter intuitive. You're just asking for trouble.
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  #142  
Old 02-20-2014, 1:02 PM
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Wait a minute we cant carry in a public park? I go out there all the time to play soccer or basketball with the kids, am i not allowed to carry? I do have a ccw from sac country
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  #143  
Old 02-20-2014, 1:34 PM
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Wait a minute we cant carry in a public park? I go out there all the time to play soccer or basketball with the kids, am i not allowed to carry? I do have a ccw from sac country
Not in Sacramento.
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  #144  
Old 02-21-2014, 6:56 AM
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Not in Sacramento.


Well I hope at some point that is challenged. Its a shame that you get a LTC and can't use it in large sections of the county. I can see it now, they will freely issue LTC's then ban carry from all, parks, malls, buildings, etc, effectively rendering them useless. End-around on 2a that this state is quite capable of.



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  #145  
Old 02-21-2014, 5:33 PM
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I am sure this has been asked before, but please forgive me.

"Alcohol and places that sell/serve"

Soooooo, practically no where? What restaurant, grocery store, 7-11, gas stations doesn't?

Or, does it actually mean SELL AND SERVE, i.e restaurants / bars?
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  #146  
Old 02-21-2014, 5:45 PM
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I am sure this has been asked before, but please forgive me.

"Alcohol and places that sell/serve"

Soooooo, practically no where? What restaurant, grocery store, 7-11, gas stations doesn't?

Or, does it actually mean SELL AND SERVE, i.e restaurants / bars?
Whose language are you quoting there?

The app, which some feel is binding, says 'primarily' but without specifying by what measure (Gross income? Profit? Floorspace devoted to alcohol consumption and storage? Advertising for the place? Signs in the windows?) nor how a LTC holder might make that determination.
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  #147  
Old 02-21-2014, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zonzin View Post
Well I hope at some point that is challenged. Its a shame that you get a LTC and can't use it in large sections of the county. I can see it now, they will freely issue LTC's then ban carry from all, parks, malls, buildings, etc, effectively rendering them useless. End-around on 2a that this state is quite capable of.



.


I am guessing this will happen some time after Peruta has been finished being hashed out and CA is finally a 'shall issue' state.
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  #148  
Old 02-21-2014, 8:15 PM
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^^^
I just read that the San Diego Sheriff is not going to ask for a review by the entire court
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Old 02-22-2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Whose language are you quoting there?

The app, which some feel is binding, says 'primarily' but without specifying by what measure (Gross income? Profit? Floorspace devoted to alcohol consumption and storage? Advertising for the place? Signs in the windows?) nor how a LTC holder might make that determination.
"Alcohol and places that sell/serve"

Was from the original post on the first page.

I guess it just seems vague, but "primarily" serves/sells makes sense.
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Old 02-22-2014, 8:56 PM
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Understand and agree with honoring the conditions under witch your permit was issued. Having said that, when someone with a permit issued from a different county visits Sacramento how or why would they think there wasa law that apied to ccw's?
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Old 02-22-2014, 9:59 PM
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Understand and agree with honoring the conditions under witch your permit was issued. Having said that, when someone with a permit issued from a different county visits Sacramento how or why would they think there wasa law that apied to ccw's?
Restrictions are existing Penal Code and things added to the license, if any, by the issuing agency. If something isn't actually illegal, restrictions added by agency 'A' do not apply to licensees from agency 'B'.

For example, let's say Sacramento were to mark al the LTCs they issue 'not valid on school property' (they did that for a while). If you had your LTC from, say, Butte, and your license did not have that restriction on it, then that restriction does not apply to you.

OTOH, the restriction on LTC carry in Sacramento parks, as recently noted in this thread, applies to all.
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  #152  
Old 02-23-2014, 8:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Restrictions are existing Penal Code and things added to the license, if any, by the issuing agency. If something isn't actually illegal, restrictions added by agency 'A' do not apply to licensees from agency 'B'.

For example, let's say Sacramento were to mark al the LTCs they issue 'not valid on school property' (they did that for a while). If you had your LTC from, say, Butte, and your license did not have that restriction on it, then that restriction does not apply to you.

OTOH, the restriction on LTC carry in Sacramento parks, as recently noted in this thread, applies to all.

Is this prominently posted at ALL entrances to these parks so that a LTCer from another county would be aware of this restriction?

I understand that you are not from Sac county but maybe someone else would know.
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Originally Posted by EM2
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Old 02-23-2014, 9:48 AM
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Huh?

Answer is simple. Know the applicable Penal Code sections. Know the restrictions that your own IA printed on your license. Assume in most urban or semi-urban counties, there will also be local ordinances against carrying in parks and city and county buildings, with NO exemption for LTC. And...
...use common sense. It's a stupid idea to hang out in a bar while carrying, even if your IA does not restrict it.
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Old 02-23-2014, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Huh?

Answer is simple. Know the applicable Penal Code sections. Know the restrictions that your own IA printed on your license. Assume in most urban or semi-urban counties, there will also be local ordinances against carrying in parks and city and county buildings, with NO exemption for LTC. And...
...use common sense. It's a stupid idea to hang out in a bar while carrying, even if your IA does not restrict it.

Yeah cause I'm gonna study up on all the POS local ordnances of the various local governments in CA.
And I do not like to *****-u-me anything.
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"The 'Spray and Pray' system advances triumphantly in law enforcement. In a recent case in a southwestern city...a police officer, when threatened with a handgun, emptied his 15 shot pistol at his would-be assailant, achieving two peripheral hits. The citizen was charged with brandishing a firearm, but the cop was not charged with anything, lousy shooting not being a diciplinary offense."
--- Jeff Cooper, June 1990

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Originally Posted by EM2
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Old 02-24-2014, 5:40 PM
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Default Definitive "Where can I carry in CA?" list (Legalities)

Alrighty then. Good luck with that. As I've said when we've gone round and round before on this topic, feel free to be a test case.
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Old 02-24-2014, 5:42 PM
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Don't research, but don't assume...what's that leave? Ignore?
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Old 02-24-2014, 5:45 PM
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Default Definitive "Where can I carry in CA?" list (Legalities)

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Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
Is this prominently posted at ALL entrances to these parks so that a LTCer from another county would be aware of this restriction?



I understand that you are not from Sac county but maybe someone else would know.

These are not uniformly posted at all possible entrances, no. It's possibly more standardized at county regional parks and City of Sacramento parks (I haven't checked recently), but there are also numerous smaller park districts and just about all of 'em have the same law.

The lack of a sign at every entrance won't make one bit of difference if they want to make an arrest. The only thing that may prevent that ) yeah, yeah, concealed is concealed, but I'm talking about a situation in which your carry status has become known) is the discretion of the officer/s involved, and there are too many unknowns to make that a safe bet.
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Old 02-24-2014, 7:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Don't research, but don't assume...what's that leave? Ignore?

No, not ignore.
We have reached a point where we all must make that decision the best we can and determine if we are going to live a free life.
I am not advocating criminal activity but that we all need to determine what it means to us.

On Being An Outlaw
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Quote:
"The 'Spray and Pray' system advances triumphantly in law enforcement. In a recent case in a southwestern city...a police officer, when threatened with a handgun, emptied his 15 shot pistol at his would-be assailant, achieving two peripheral hits. The citizen was charged with brandishing a firearm, but the cop was not charged with anything, lousy shooting not being a diciplinary offense."
--- Jeff Cooper, June 1990

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Originally Posted by EM2
Put you link where your opinion is.
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  #159  
Old 02-26-2014, 8:39 AM
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Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
If only you were kidding. Instructors are not reliable sources for the law, and are not given to taking criticism.
^^ Agree! ^^ Mine was all of the place and wrong in many instances.
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Old 02-26-2014, 9:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Restrictions are existing Penal Code and things added to the license, if any, by the issuing agency. If something isn't actually illegal, restrictions added by agency 'A' do not apply to licensees from agency 'B'.
Exactly. Any restriction that is put on your LTC is not law. You can not be arrested for it. However, they are all things that your IA can REVOKE your LTC for.
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