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  #81  
Old 11-25-2009, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
I read all those rules and it makes me not want to shoot anymore.
Cool, you can run the line this weekend then.
I feel like shooting.

I'm working on some more targets tonight too.
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  #82  
Old 11-25-2009, 2:34 PM
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Originally Posted by wildcard View Post
You sure as hell won't get better complaining about how you can't start at the top because you don't have top notch equipment that you probably couldn't take full advantage of anyways.
Does it get any simpler than this? How many of us have started with 308's and competed against the big dog lasers? It didn't stop us from going out. And you get a great sense of satisfaction when you beat them.
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  #83  
Old 11-25-2009, 2:53 PM
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Eh guys..light bulb just came on for me.

Quite a few of us sat here all day debating this and that about classes, calibers, blah blah blah blah.

The success of NCPPRC was not classes or limitations on hardware. It is and always be the people. Building an organization that will allow the new shooter to come and compete with whatever they have and not feel left out is the key.

I am willing to bet my rifles that our newbs do not feel left out or scared to compete due to our lack of classification of skills and hardware. More people that USE to shoot with the old Sac Valley club have come back and 100% of them said it is way better now than back then.

We squad new shooters with veteran shooters with the same caliber. We have multiple days a month where a noob can come out and not even compete but just gather data and get comfortable shooting at distance.

The key to success is making sure we help flatten the learning curve for noobs...not classify them as this and that due to their skills or hardware.

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  #84  
Old 11-25-2009, 3:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
Does it get any simpler than this? How many of us have started with 308's and competed against the big dog lasers? It didn't stop us from going out. And you get a great sense of satisfaction when you beat them.


At least back in the day we could blame it on our 308s LOL. Now with all the hopped up optics, calibers, rifles, kit, and bullets. We have screwed ourselves out of excuses for ganking that shot....

Quick note to noobs:

There is nothing better than handing someone their arse with your bone stock rig with an ole loopy on top when they are shooting a 6000.00 + rig. =)
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  #85  
Old 11-25-2009, 3:09 PM
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Why shouldn't she. It's probably time that she got some excercise and started dieting a bit. Then she can be confident about the body she worked for rather than complaining about how she can't have a perfect body sitting on her arse all day.

Same with shooting. Work with what you got and develope yourself. You sure as hell won't get better complaining about how you can't start at the top because you don't have top notch equipment that you probably couldn't take full advantage of anyways.

LMAO. Now that is a signature line gem.......
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  #86  
Old 11-25-2009, 3:12 PM
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At least back in the day we could blame it on our 308s LOL.
It's even worse if you build your own rig..

You can either be a crappy shooter or a crappy "gunsmith."
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  #87  
Old 11-25-2009, 3:17 PM
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At least back in the day we could blame it on our 308s LOL. Now with all the hopped up optics, calibers, rifles, kit, and bullets. We have screwed ourselves out of excuses for ganking that shot....
I've still got an excuse.
All y'all got 1st focal plane scopes.
That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!
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  #88  
Old 11-25-2009, 3:52 PM
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From a newbie to this side of the world i'll give my take. I have taken the path that most are describing. I have crappy equipment that works half the time, i had little to zero knowledge about what it really takes to make hits. I ask questions to learn (A LOT OF QUESTIONS!!) I have attended the So Cal shoot twice already and would be attending this weekend if i weren't in Nebraska right now. I am committed to learn all i can and about the sport because its what excites me the most. I have learned a lot thanks to this forum and to Randalls efforts at putting on the shoots. I hardly call that a "cop out" or making excuses. I will be making it out to some matches soon.... class split or not! I doubt i'll ever be as hardcore into it as some of you are but i still have the desire to learn and get better.

New guys have much to learn and through all the hoopla about fancy scopes and 1/4in groups we all tend to get very intimidated. Look at all the guys in the centerfire rifle section or at the range shooting their new SPS Tactical with the "tactical" scopes you see all the time. These guys are perfect candidates to turn into shooters. Give the new guys a chance to have some fun... take the fun out of the game and you will have shooters losing interest left and right. Not everyone is going to be as in to this as us.... giving them a place to start might just keep the spark alive long enough to make them aspire to get better too!

Isn't this about attracting new shooters to help the sport grow?? Why make them walk 10 miles in the snow to school just because "You" did?
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  #89  
Old 11-25-2009, 4:36 PM
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Isn't this about attracting new shooters to help the sport grow?? Why make them walk 10 miles in the snow to school just because "You" did?
Actually it is the complete opposite. Ask the guys that have taken you out in the desert to show you things. Back in the day it was really sing or swim.

It took me 4 months to figure out how to use a BDL bottom metal. LOL

As a newb I purchased a GAP 300win. Guess what..scores didnt improve.

Still continued to get my arse kicked. I then went to a FN SPR 308win with 175s. Shot in the top 10 two years in a row because I must of launched a few thousand rounds down range those years.

We don't wanna make newbs suffer but new guys need to meet the veterans of the game half way and not worry so much about hardware or caliber.
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  #90  
Old 11-25-2009, 4:40 PM
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It's easy for us to say that it's a cop out, but there's a perception that new shooters have that their equipment is not good enough.......................................

There's an old saying, "Perception is reality" . The truth of the matter is many beginning shooters will never come out to a match because they feel that their equipment is not good enough or not competitive.

I've never shot a precision rifle match partially my equipment is not set up for DBMs and can't be adapted to it with off the shelf equipment. So any string longer than 3 shots would handicap me in competition. I also cannot kneel, so any COF that requires a set position like that is impossible.

I can shoot F class with it because I can single load to shoot the course if I want and I can shoot it prone. So that's what I do.
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  #91  
Old 11-25-2009, 4:40 PM
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We don't wanna make newbs suffer but new guys need to meet the veterans of the game half way and not worry so much about hardware or caliber.
Never happen, too many geardos in shooting
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  #92  
Old 11-25-2009, 5:36 PM
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Geardos? Same has nylon whores?
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  #93  
Old 11-25-2009, 5:40 PM
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There's an old saying, "Perception is reality" . The truth of the matter is many beginning shooters will never come out to a match because they feel that their equipment is not good enough or not competitive.

I've never shot a precision rifle match partially my equipment is not set up for DBMs and can't be adapted to it with off the shelf equipment. So any string longer than 3 shots would handicap me in competition. I also cannot kneel, so any COF that requires a set position like that is impossible.

I can shoot F class with it because I can single load to shoot the course if I want and I can shoot it prone. So that's what I do.

We try to make it so everyone can join us but the truth is this game is not for everyone. Our oldest regular shooter is 70+ years old. He carries his big ole 7mm RM and all his kit and walks the course with us. Any COF that he feels he can not complete safely he just skips all together.

He knows he isnt going to finish up at the top all the time but he enjoys being out there and hanging with the boys....hence our club motto.
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  #94  
Old 11-25-2009, 6:43 PM
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Well just finished reading this whole thread...

Small bullets this, laser that, blah blah blah... who gives ****... If a new shooter only goal is to come out an see there name in the top of the score sheet they need to check themselves.

Is it more satisfying winning a match with a ballistaclly inferior round? I don't know, I've never won... I do know it feels good to place high in the ranks... but know what is the best feeling... looking back on the evolution of my shooting ability and going from 26th to 9th to 3rd in three years at the same event... knowing I put 5000rd of trigger time and hours of training to get to a higher lvl.

A lot of people do not have the determination / ambition / desire to improve on something they are not good at...

You should want to come out and improve. You should want to come out and be with like minded people, that have the same interests and whatever else as you.

You do not get better shooting with people of the same caliber or lesser caliber than you, you get better by shooting with people better than you... competition breeds excellence.

Seriously, if you are sitting at home thinking well I dont want to goto the range today and shoot because there is a high probablility I might lose or shoot poorly, then stay home... For the record I would like to see tons and tons of new shooters... hell I make hour trips to get new shooters trigger time on my days off, but if their whole reason for not shooting match day is because they might look bad or lose, then stay home or locate your balls, find your man card, get them both back from the female, and come shoot.

Im big on team work and comrodery... quick side story... I was in a Tac Pistol 1/2 class week or two ago... at the end of it was a combat course of fire. Two guys showed up for day two, buddies, one Ex-Army, one retired Marine Corps... One of them got the fastest time through the course, later on I over heard one of them say to the other, glad it was one of us that won... I looked over at them and said "what you don't have any love for the rest of your team"? They just gave me a blank look...

If a shooter is only concerned with themselves then I say stay home... If you want to come out, enjoy the time you have at the range, learn, train, built a skill set very few people can do well, help others, be a part of a team ... then come on out.

A new shooter should want to shoot with the best shooters they can find... learn and improve.

If somene thinks shooting a .243, 300winmag, 338 Lapua, 6xc, 260... is going to take home the trophy just because they are shooting that instead of a 308, then I have a big bag of disappointment for you...

So new shooters... to summerize it all up... Stop being P***y and come shoot. That is all.
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  #95  
Old 11-25-2009, 7:06 PM
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Can't say i agree with you there. Do Nascar guys just jump in a car and go fast? Do pro ball players just go right out and get put in the game? Every one has to start somewhere and if getting new shooters involved is really the goal here then why not let them start somewhere where the feel less pressure but can still be "observing much of the time, looking at what others have and what others do and how you can do what you're doing better"

Just showing up even if they do want to compete in a class with less pressure doesn't show wanting to be competitive?
I shoot essentially a bone stock FN-PBR (.308) with a brake. I know it's limitations. I've shot with Ryan and his .260, and seen the difference in performance. Knowing that I'll still shoot with him or anyone else with a "laser". Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't, but it's all fun. At the moment I do not want to make the additional commitment to a 6.5 or 6mm. If I really want to run with them, then I know that's what I'll have to eventually do. I don't consider it unfair. It's progress and it is what it is.

I don't see this sport as the Nascar analogy. I see it more like street racing... run what you brung, no excuses. Initially IPSC was one class, then as things evolved it was split into Open/Limited. I think this sport is still in the initial stage and doesn't need to be further divided.

If as prospective new precision tactical shooter, you're looking for a less competitive venue, look at the precision tactical 22LR match at APTS. It's are fantastic learning environment and great fun. Then you can attend the smaller local matches or CAPRC to sort your equipment out, etc.. If you want to be competitive right out of the gate, I think that's somewhat unrealistic. Back when I used to shoot pistols regularly (IPSC), I observed many new shooters at their first or second match with a high dollar full custom STI/SVI (Open or Limited) race gun. Their gear was competitive but they weren't. At that time (and still) I shot a bone stock Beretta 92F with real leather belt, leather Yaqui slide, leather mag carrier (all behind the centerline) and I did reasonable well. I can't recall the number of times shooters would come up and look at my gear, to see if there was something that was making the difference. The gear was nothing special, never was. Would I have done better with better gear? Maybe. Would I have had any more enjoyment? Doubtful.
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  #96  
Old 11-25-2009, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
It's easy for us to say that it's a cop out, but there's a perception that new shooters have that their equipment is not good enough.
Look at all the people posting pictures of hi-zoot rigs.
It's like a woman who's a size 6 with 32b's looking at women's magazines and basing her opinion of herself against what she sees in pictures.
Until we DRAG the new shooters out and show them that equipment does not matter that much, they don't get it.

Look how crappy my first two 308's were.
My first one I literally paid $500 for and it had 3800 rounds through it when I bought it.
It worked good for me for a year.
My 2nd one had a $35 ebay barrel on it.
That's the one I just retired after Sin City.
It worked good enough for me for another year.
Their equipment may indeed, not be good enough. But how are they going to find that out unless they "man up" and get out there to, at least, try. It's much safer to make excuses that you'd be out competing if you had that wonder-widget or that super-cluge. You end up playing constant catch-up and as a result never just get out there. Thread drift: How many of those M-4A1, SOPMOD clones do you think actually get run in 3-gun?

Competition WILL quickly sort out your and your equipment's shortcomings. That's what it does. That's how you get better.

Randall, you and I have been shooting on and off for a long time. I like to shoot and I love to compete. I don't care where I place or who has what. I got what I got and I'll run what I brung and make no excuses about it.
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  #97  
Old 11-25-2009, 7:27 PM
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Randall, you and I have been shooting on and off for a long time. I like to shoot and I love to compete. I don't care where I place or who has what. I got what I got and I'll run what I brung and make no excuses about it.
Thats the truth. There are reasons to choose a 308. Barrel life is the biggest. I originally spec'd a 260 to Randy when I wanted him to build my rifle. But I thought of how fast I would go through the barrel and I thought that a 308 would be better. I knew that I would be at a disadvantage with the 308 but I wouldn't have to change my barrel so often. Now I see that the trade-off of hitting your target far more predictably for a little barrel life is well worth it...for me...

You pays your money and you takes your chances...
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Old 11-25-2009, 7:35 PM
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Thats the truth. There are reasons to choose a 308. Barrel life is the biggest. I originally spec'd a 260 to Randy when I wanted him to build my rifle. But I thought of how fast I would go through the barrel and I thought that a 308 would be better. I knew that I would be at a disadvantage with the 308 but I wouldn't have to change my barrel so often. Now I see that the trade-off of hitting your target far more predictably for a little barrel life is well worth it...for me...

You pays your money and you takes your chances...
You found your equilibrium.......
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Old 11-25-2009, 7:36 PM
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Wow.

Ok, as a certified internet junkie, one of the actual match directors for the NCPPRC monthly long range match (the guy who makes up the COFs, runs the line, signs people in, makes up the rules, settles disputes etc), and spends so much time at the Sac Valley range they let me have a key, I figure I should add my $.02.

JasonB said
Quote:
Seriously, if you are sitting at home thinking well I dont want to goto the range today and shoot because there is a high probablility I might lose or shoot poorly, then stay home...
That's pretty close. I wouldn't tell them to stay home, I would tell them to come one out because they will learn a heck of a lot more shooting in competition than shooting at the 100 yard range trying to get good enough to shoot our monthly match. And in fact I say that to people on this board probably every week or so, and with the same frequency to people at the range.

From what I read on discussion boards like this one, and what I hear people say to me at the range, what keeps newbs from coming out isn't their equipment, it's their confidence in their ability to do well.

That's one of the reasons why the NCPPRC puts on it's new shooter clinic every year. Why ALL of our practice sessions are open to ANYONE, regardless of whether they are a NCPPRC member or come shoot our matches. We want to give new shooters a chance to come see what it's all about, ask questions, get some coaching and advise, and actually shoot some rounds down range, without the pressure of being in a match. And you know what? Most of them then come give it a shot in our monthly match.

For those who think there should be some kind of "stock" class, the reality is it isn't going to happen. It takes me 45 minutes to sign in 35-45 shooters. If I'm lucky I can actually get them to completely fill out there score sheet correctly and legibly. If we had to ask for proof of "stockness" and receipts for proof of cost, I'd be starting sign in at midnight the morning of the match. Who would be the one(s) to randomly select rounds from a competitors ammo box and weigh them to make sure they are the right weight? Who would chrono them to make sure they are to FGMM spec +/- tolerance to be sure they're legal for the class?

Trust the honor system? Yeah, right. I think everyone is familiar with the word "gamers".

I and my fellow match director came up with a set of COFs for our monthly LR match that gives everyone a fair chance to compete and have FUN (which is really what it's all about isn't it?) whether they're a hard core competitor or just someone who wants to come lay on the ground and shoot out to 1000 yards to see if they can do it, and get better at it.

From shooting the LR match at Sac Valley for 10 years now, I can say that I have never heard someone say they won't be back because they don't have the equipment to win. On the contrary, they keep coming back with what they have until they feel their SKILL LEVEL is such that they want to get better equipment. Not because they need better equipment.

We will probably never see standardization of equipment or match rules in our particular sport like there is in HP/Palma/F Class because those sports grew from small beginnings and spread. Ours has sprung up all across the country in a relatively short time, on ranges that are different geographically. If we all shot on the same kind of square range it might be possible. But we don't.

As has been said on this board, quite literally hundreds of times, by those who shoot in matches to those looking to get into it, the reasons for going with a .308 are simply cost and ease of getting something that can be reasonably competitive without breaking the bank.

(they could also get a 100 year old Swedish Mauser, but that's another story )

The bottom line is we need to encourage new shooters to get out on the range, get out to matches, and "just do it". Whether it's the tactical/practical precision rifle sport, F Class, or what ever.

Edited to add this:

For those who think you need a hot rod/laser, here's something to mull over. U.S. and Canada changed their Palma rules to allow the the .223 - with 90gr bullets. That combo will shoot INSIDE the 155gr bullets at 1000 yards. Don't believe me? Jerry Tierney - a high ranked Palma shooter of decades has been doing it lately. In the Sac Valley winds no less, and it has been confirmed by Lane Buxton.

Here's a post by Jerry today on long-range.com.

Quote:
Those who do not believe the 223 will compete with the 308 at 1000 yards have not shot against a well set up 223.

Look at the wind drift numbers, 10 mph wind at 3 o'clock, 1000 yards.

Berger 90 VLD 223 MV = 2912 fps wind drift of 71.90"
Berger 155.5 308 MV = 3034 fps wind drift of 85.77"

The MVs are actual numbers from my rifles.
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  #100  
Old 11-25-2009, 9:02 PM
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Those who do not believe the 223 will compete with the 308 at 1000 yards have not shot against a well set up 223.

Look at the wind drift numbers, 10 mph wind at 3 o'clock, 1000 yards.

Berger 90 VLD 223 MV = 2912 fps wind drift of 71.90"
Berger 155.5 308 MV = 3034 fps wind drift of 85.77"

The MVs are actual numbers from my rifles.
Holy cow, 2912fps with 90gr bullets in a 223!
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  #101  
Old 11-25-2009, 9:18 PM
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Holy cow, 2912fps with 90gr bullets in a 223!
Just thinking that myself.
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  #102  
Old 11-25-2009, 10:45 PM
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I have a couple magic bullets, jenna jamison touched them at my last shin dig..... I will start bidding at 1k per bullet. I promise they will win, 20cal too! So there tiny and fast

Who cares about the rifle, if the shooter sucks or rifles a POS and doesnt work reliably (Ask me about reliable lol) you wont be able to be competitive. Its like rock crawling and putting 42" tires on my trucks. Its just something you enjoy, its not about winning. Its about having a good time, meeting new people, getting outside and seeing new places.
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  #103  
Old 11-26-2009, 5:46 AM
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From a newbie to this side of the world i'll give my take. I have taken the path that most are describing. I have crappy equipment that works half the time, i had little to zero knowledge about what it really takes to make hits. I ask questions to learn (A LOT OF QUESTIONS!!) I have attended the So Cal shoot twice already and would be attending this weekend if i weren't in Nebraska right now. I am committed to learn all i can and about the sport because its what excites me the most. I have learned a lot thanks to this forum and to Randalls efforts at putting on the shoots. I hardly call that a "cop out" or making excuses. I will be making it out to some matches soon.... class split or not! I doubt i'll ever be as hardcore into it as some of you are but i still have the desire to learn and get better.

New guys have much to learn and through all the hoopla about fancy scopes and 1/4in groups we all tend to get very intimidated. Look at all the guys in the centerfire rifle section or at the range shooting their new SPS Tactical with the "tactical" scopes you see all the time. These guys are perfect candidates to turn into shooters. Give the new guys a chance to have some fun... take the fun out of the game and you will have shooters losing interest left and right. Not everyone is going to be as in to this as us.... giving them a place to start might just keep the spark alive long enough to make them aspire to get better too!

Isn't this about attracting new shooters to help the sport grow?? Why make them walk 10 miles in the snow to school just because "You" did?
I'm trying to understand this. Is it less fun to compete directly against guys with lasers? Give those same guys 308's and they'll still win. Is it less fun to compete against guys that are better than you? Isn't that competition? Don't be intimidated by 1/4" groups posted. None of us can hold that under match conditions. Even with classes, you'd be eliminated from a couple matches right off the bat because you shoot a semi. Some are bolt rifle only. You may find that after getting a solid 308 bolt gun, and half minute groups consistently, you might not be at the disadvantage you think you are. Then you throw in a match like the TPRC that had all kinds of positional work inside 650 yards and the lasers advantages are gone.

You are one of the only ones who did that hold over stage at the end of the last shoot...with a broken scope no less. You saw and experienced more than others just by doing it. Its unrealistic to expect to come out on day one and finish top 3. Many of us have chosen 308s to start out with in order to (in my case) have a rifle with a long enough barrel life such that I could shoot the hell out of it, develop my skills, and not have it on its way back to the smith in 6 months. I realized that my skills were the problem, not the caliber. After a couple thousand rounds through it in 5 months or so, and a hell of a lot of dry firing, I started to finish well. I think ol "laserguy 260 Vu" only beat me once while I had my 308. (Maybe I should shoot my 308 again...nah.) Long story short, a laser only improves the hit percentage of someone who has some serious skills behind a rifle to begin with.

Don't be discouraged. Come on out and I'll let you shoot my 308 and 260 side by side. You'll probably find the boltgun in general is more forgiving than the semi. But if you can't drive the rifle, caliber really isn't going to matter.
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  #104  
Old 11-26-2009, 8:28 AM
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Dang bro..had to rub it in eh? LOL
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  #105  
Old 11-26-2009, 8:51 AM
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I think ol "laserguy 260 Vu" only beat me once while I had my 308.
You know, other than at Sac Valley club matches, I don't think Vu has beat me since he's been shooting that 260 so I guess my $35 barreled 308 IS good enough to beat lasers...
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  #106  
Old 11-26-2009, 8:58 AM
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What would be so hard in having a "Production" division?

All you have to do at sign ups is to ask the shooter what they are shooting. If their equipment qualifies... put them in that division.

When it's time to enter scores you just group them and tally them together.

That's it. Nothing to it.
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  #107  
Old 11-26-2009, 9:15 AM
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What would be so hard in having a "Production" division?

All you have to do at sign ups is to ask the shooter what they are shooting. If their equipment qualifies... put them in that division.

When it's time to enter scores you just group them and tally them together.

That's it. Nothing to it.
I think the difficulty would be defining exactly what is "Production".

Straight out of the box M700SPS Tactical = Straight out of the box AIAW?

Then how do you police the inevitable equipment drift/tweaking?
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  #108  
Old 11-26-2009, 9:27 AM
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For a start look at Randall's outline.

You need to define what this "Production" division is for and tailor the criteria to meet the goal.

Is a AIAW in the spirit of the division? If it isn't, then tailor the criteria of the division to exclude it.
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  #109  
Old 11-26-2009, 9:52 AM
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I am willing to bet that less than 10% of the shooters that go to big matches are running bone stock rigs.

No point in doing this until the shooter base is big enough where it is required.

Vu
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Old 11-26-2009, 9:53 AM
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You know, other than at Sac Valley club matches, I don't think Vu has beat me since he's been shooting that 260 so I guess my $35 barreled 308 IS good enough to beat lasers...


Some guys are SHORT strokers...I just happen to be a long stroker.

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  #111  
Old 11-26-2009, 10:12 AM
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I would go so far as to say that 0% of the shooters at big matches are shooting 100% production rigs.

A Production division would initially be for the local matches to help attract new shooters.

If you went recruiting for new shooters what do you think would be more appealing to most of them? What we have now where the sky's the limit?

Or would we be able to attract more shooters if there was a "Production" division?

If there was a Production division at your club you could honestly say to a prospect that they wouldn't be limited by having a relatively stock $600-$1200 rifle... because everybody else in that division is also shooting a relatively stock $600-$1200 rifle.

Lower the cost of entry and you will be able to recruit more shooters.
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  #112  
Old 11-26-2009, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Religious Shooter View Post
For a start look at Randall's outline.

You need to define what this "Production" division is for and tailor the criteria to meet the goal.

Is a AIAW in the spirit of the division? If it isn't, then tailor the criteria of the division to exclude it.
I have read that outline and I think your premise is a little naive. Your premise depends too much on the "spirit".

Pretty much the only thing that you can effectively police in that outline is the rifle is chambered in .308Win/7.62x51mm and individual clubs keeping track of the number of wins. Everything else will be very difficult to keep level, especially in matches where there is a prize table.

Even if you declare that it must be a factory barreled action, there WILL be competitors that setback/re-cut match chambers, surface grind factory recoil lugs, borescope barrels, re-cut crowns, etc.. How do you check?

Ammunition will be difficult to police, since you would have to pull bullets to check weights, chrono loads, etc..

Rifle configurations and costs, how do you calculate this? New price, Used price, street price, horse trading price. Is the rifle professionally bedded, reinforced, factory DBM systems. Would factory FN-SPR's or Steyr SSG's be allowed? If not, why not?

Haven't even gone into optics.

My perspective comes from IPSC, Steel Challenge Pistol comps. I've seen competitors buy five identical 8-shot 627's and send them to a smith. That smith will take a part those five revolvers to measure and pick the best parts. He will then take those best parts and rework them to make a sublime revolver. That revolver will look like any stock gun and technically it's still "stock" since stock parts are still used, but it is WORLD's a part. The competitor will also develop special loads, sometimes using .38Colt brass instead of .38Spl to get that little extra edge (still legal since the rules don't ban it).

Unless you make the "Production" class extremely limited by declaring exactly what rifles, factory ammo, optics are acceptable, it's going to be a nightmare to police. But by doing that, I think it may keep shooters out, which is opposite to the intent.
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  #113  
Old 11-26-2009, 10:19 AM
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My perspective also comes from IPSC and three gun.

I haven't found any "cheaters" in IPSC. If you have found "cheaters" at the local USPSA circles... who are they?
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  #114  
Old 11-26-2009, 10:22 AM
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Lower the cost of entry and you will be able to recruit more shooters.
Anyone can bring their "scoped hunting rifle w/ bipod/knapsack" to any local match to try it out. That's about as low a cost as you get.

When I first started competing with pistols, I brought my 92F, mags, ammo and holster. There were guys there that set me up with a proper belt and other gear.

If shooters are not coming out to matches, I don't believe it's because of a lack of equipment but due to a desire to not look bad. I'm bad all the time, so I'm used to it.
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  #115  
Old 11-26-2009, 10:25 AM
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My perspective also comes from IPSC and three gun.

I haven't found any "cheaters" in IPSC. If you have found "cheaters" at the local USPSA circles... who are they?
Where did I say "cheaters"? That's your word, not mine.

Competitors will however push the rule envelope. It's not cheating, it's maximizing under the rules. (In motorsports, competitors blueprint/balance components, match components, port heads, polish runners, etc.. Is that cheating?)
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  #116  
Old 11-26-2009, 10:31 AM
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Holy cow, 2912fps with 90gr bullets in a 223!

Hodgdon has one load with the 223 that will break 2500 fps with the 90 grain bullet out of the 223

Using that same ratio you should be able to push a 155.5 at 3600 fps out of 308 which means that you would only have 57.3" of drift at 1,000 yards!



Randall,

Run Quickload on that 2900+ load and tell us what pressure that is running.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:33 AM
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I would go so far as to say that 0% of the shooters at big matches are shooting 100% production rigs.

A Production division would initially be for the local matches to help attract new shooters.

If you went recruiting for new shooters what do you think would be more appealing to most of them? What we have now where the sky's the limit?

Or would we be able to attract more shooters if there was a "Production" division?

I dunno...we are pushing 40 + shooters with next month having the threat of filling all 25 lanes. You tell me if we have a problem attracting new shooters.

If there was a Production division at your club you could honestly say to a prospect that they wouldn't be limited by having a relatively stock $600-$1200 rifle... because everybody else in that division is also shooting a relatively stock $600-$1200 rifle.

Lower the cost of entry and you will be able to recruit more shooters.

Reality is this sport is not cheap. I would say 1500 to 2000 is the minimum for a decent comp rig.

We have been bringing new shooters into this game for the past several years. Not one of them have blinked at spending the money they need to do it RIGHT. Why tell a shooter they can compete with a SPS with 168gn ammo and then have them fail at 800 to 1000 yards.
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  #118  
Old 11-26-2009, 10:36 AM
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As a MD I can say for myself it would be virtually impossible and certainly not practical to try and set up a production class - maybe have a few matches for .308 only. As for the excuse that you can't compete against "lazers" for the record I shoot a .308 and regularly compete at 1000 yards with it. I share the line with 260s, 6.5-284s and even had my arse handed to me by a 6BR in gail force winds. At the end of the day if I blow a shot - I blew it - not my rifle or cartridge. If you throw enough rounds down range you'll soon realize its the indian and not the arrow that makes the difference.
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  #119  
Old 11-26-2009, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Religious Shooter View Post
For a start look at Randall's outline.

You need to define what this "Production" division is for and tailor the criteria to meet the goal.

Is a AIAW in the spirit of the division? If it isn't, then tailor the criteria of the division to exclude it.

One of the biggest problem IS the "PRIZE TABLE" way of prize allocation..... in IDPA state matches.... if you WIN, you won yourself a trophy.... so, if you sandbag or whatsoever, all you get is another trophy.... and all the prizes (they are sponsored anyways) get "raffled" out... that is a much better way... (if you want to start to say that this will make the "big shooters" not want to come out to shoot... then you just made the point that all they want are the "pay back" rather than just "shoot for fun"....)

Now, big "precision rifle" matches has "prize table", and you get to pick up "better" stuff that you can sell (most top prizes are sold on SH in the few days after the matches)...... now people will get stinchy about your gear....
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  #120  
Old 11-26-2009, 11:03 AM
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Problem with IDPA and IPSC are the gamers. The system is designed so that gamers can strive.

Raffle? Nah. I considered that for a while but people should get what they have earned. The guy that invested his time, efforts, and energy to come out on top should get the top prize.

Prize tables are not the problem. It's the people that try to game it that ruin it and force MDs to put in all these rules, classes and crap to help regulate them. All that is really need to be done is black book a guy for being a gamer and be done with it. We have had very minor issues with gaming because people realize we do not tolerate it...period.
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