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#161
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My posts may contain general information related to the law, however, THEY ARE NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND I AM NOT A LAWYER. I recommend you consult a lawyer if you want legal advice. No attorney-client or confidential relationship exists or will be formed between myself and any other person on the basis of these posts. Pronouns I may use (such as "you" and "your") do NOT refer to any particular person under any circumstance. Last edited by Tincon; 08-21-2013 at 2:55 PM.. |
#162
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Dena, thanks for your input to this thread. It is nice to see that the Tannerite company is and has been following through on the legal defense promise, and that it has provided successful defenses in other states. Now I'm not intimately familiar with the case at hand. I do believe 18720 linked to in the post you quoted from another user could be argued away because of the intent clause. But if you'll notice, my prior response included 18720, and the 123xx bits I provided make no mention of intent. We can hope that future DA's are foolish and reckless enough to try to apply intent to Tannerite but I honestly don't think it's required. I still recommend the highest of caution to California residents as the authorities in this state are often very aggressive and care less about rights and morality than they do about case win ratios, pushing their own agendas, and advancing up the ladder of public dole.
Last edited by Some Velvet-Fisted Brute; 08-21-2013 at 3:16 PM.. Reason: clarification |
#163
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I'm not being cynical. I was responding to the comment that the forum should ignore everything I say because I represent Tannerite(r). I would think that the forum would be interested to hear from the company that they are talking about. Of course, it looks like that is not the case.
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#164
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__________________
My posts may contain general information related to the law, however, THEY ARE NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND I AM NOT A LAWYER. I recommend you consult a lawyer if you want legal advice. No attorney-client or confidential relationship exists or will be formed between myself and any other person on the basis of these posts. Pronouns I may use (such as "you" and "your") do NOT refer to any particular person under any circumstance. |
#165
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Keep us posted on the suit against Riverside County. I'd actually like to see a new thread started & stickied with any details you have now, and updates as they become available. I'd love for the whole "is Tannerite legal or not" situation to be settled one way or the other.
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War is when your Government tells you who the enemy is...... Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself. Last edited by jaymz; 08-21-2013 at 4:00 PM.. Reason: spelling |
#167
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Dena,
Can you please post the complaint in your case against Riverside County? Also, you didn't announce your affiliation - I did that for you, so please don't act like you came here in an attempt to work with us on this problem. I hope that is the case now but when you joined the thread you were simply doing what PR does; aligning brand messaging. Personally I feel a suit from Tannerite is the best thing possible for your position. You are at odds with your customers right now; you want them to buy more of your product but DA's are prosecuting them for doing so. To add more complexity you have generic versions of your product to contend with. Even if Tannerite is technically legal that still doesn't cut it unfortunately. As long as DA's will bring charges the average California customer is well advised to stay away from Tannerite, unless they explicitly want to be a test case at potentially great cost to themselves. Obviously this causes harm to the Tannerite brand and your ability to generate revenue in California. This is why I think Tannerite suing agencies that are overstepping their legal boundaries is a great idea. This is the only way to enjoin other agencies in caution with enforcement. It is good to see a dialogue here and I don't want to discourage you from posting. However, taking the attitude that we owe you something for your presence when your previous posts encourage Californians to do something potentially illegal is just uncalled for. Realize that your motivation is to sell more product and ours is to keep people out of jail. Obviously one is far more important than the other and neither of us should lose sight of that.
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General population: 3,817 Police officers: 108 Legal CCW: 18 |
#168
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Look, Dena's protestations aside, if I stop you for a brake light out and happen to notice some Tannerite in your back seat, I'm witnessing a felony and have to take action. You're going to jail, your car is getting towed, your guns are getting logged in to evidence as instrumentalities of the crime, etc.
Don't risk your gun rights based on the assurances of a private enterprise. If you want to do Tannerite, just like if you want to use your BB-equipped rifles in non-neutered form, go to Nevada or some other state where it's legal. It's heartbreaking to see this company assert their product is not illegal when according to CA law it is illegal. This would seem to be the ideal case for Dennis Herrera to take up about consumer protection, rather than the mag rebuild kits... |
#169
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Last edited by jcwatchdog; 08-21-2013 at 3:59 PM.. |
#171
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Stores can logically sell it, because it can be used legally. Namely by those persons who have a suitable explosives license. For example, read PC 18720, and look for the clause "... without first obtaining a valid permit to make that destructive device or explosive ...". Similar clauses exist in all other parts of the codes being discussed here. How do you think Hollywood makes things go boom?
A similar example are silencers. We all know that silencers are "illegal" in California (even if an individual were able to get the NFA paperwork, their possession is banned for individuals). But I've been in stores where silencers are sold, I've seen them in the glass cabinets, and I've even been to the machine shop of a gunsmith here in California who legally manufactures silencers. How come? There is a small set of people in California who can buy them. Therefore, it is legal for stores to stock and sell them. With Tannerite and clones, stores are not even required to verify that the buyer has the suitable paperwork (unlike silencers). Now I'm quite sure that somewhere between 99% and 99.99% of all Tannerite sold in California is not used legally (namely not by people with explosives licenses). That doesn't change the fact that the mere sale of the unmixed parts is not illegal, as long as the seller has no intent to mix them and explode them. This thread has gone on for many pages. There are lots and lots of posts that just say "but it must be legal because it is sold in stores" or "it is illegal because it's fun and all fun stuff is verboten in Kommiefornia". Both statements are nonsense. If those posts hadn't been made , it would be about half or a third of its current length, and easier to read and follow. |
#172
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War is when your Government tells you who the enemy is...... Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself. |
#173
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I've purchased Tannerite in many occasions and I've not had any issues when rolled up on by Leo's.
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"Life Is Hard. It's Harder When You're Stupid"-John Wayne! "Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder"-Michael Savage! "The Object of Life Is Not To Be On The Side Of The Majority, But To Escape Finding Oneself In The Ranks Of The Insane"-Marcus Aurelius! "Dr. Thomas Sowell Is A National Treasure"-Big Jake! |
#174
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Tannerite apparently is ok to stock and sell for the store, unlocked just on the open shelves with other random things like CLP bottles and handgun grips. However you need an explosives license to buy it and use it? I doubt very strongly that any stores that stock this have any type of explosive license. If you ask them, they'd probably say "no, we don't have one, it's legal, you can buy them yourself it's right there on the shelf". |
#175
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#176
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my guess is that the terms of the explosives permit require that the explosives be transported in a particular manner. Just having some explosives on the back seat visible like that would probably not be within terms of the permit and very well could be a felony even if you had a permit
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#177
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I would also be very interested in seeing the complaint against Riverside. A search of lexis and pacer (state and federal systems) turns up nothing. That does not mean there is no case on file as there might have been an issue with the names used in the complaint or something, but I cannot locate any complaint involving Tannerite LLC (or just Tannerite) and Riverside. Ms. Woerner, please post a pdf file, a link or a case number and filing location.
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IAALBIANYL. I do not post legal advice on public forums. Anything I post is personal opinion and should not be relied upon as legal advice. Have a nice day. |
#178
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My posts may contain general information related to the law, however, THEY ARE NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND I AM NOT A LAWYER. I recommend you consult a lawyer if you want legal advice. No attorney-client or confidential relationship exists or will be formed between myself and any other person on the basis of these posts. Pronouns I may use (such as "you" and "your") do NOT refer to any particular person under any circumstance. |
#179
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I mean so common sense goes a long way here.
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#180
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Last edited by stix213; 08-21-2013 at 6:05 PM.. |
#181
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A gun store that has no intent to create an explosive is, as far as I know, not breaking any law. It does not need a license, just like your local home center doesn't need a license to sell ammonium nitrate. The intent of the gun store (or its employess) is not to create an explosive, or to make it explode, but to sell the non-explosive components. The situation with a store selling dynamite is entirely different, as that material is already an explosive. I think in theory it would even be legal for a end user to buy Tannerite, if they have no intent to mix it and make it explode. For example, I might buy it because my local garden store has run out of fertilizer, and spread it on my petunias. A local cop might still arrest me, and a local DA might still charge me, but if I had really good evidence to demonstrate that it is intended for gardening (or home decoration with the metal dust or similar non-explosive uses), it seems that I would get off. The thing that many posters here repeatedly ignore is that (AFAIK) Tannerite is illegal to possess in California if the possessor has the intent to mix it into an explosive, in particular if they have the intent to make it into an exploding target, in particular if they have already shot at it and exploded it. |
#182
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#183
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But: Does the home center have intent to mix them? No. Their intent is to stock it, sell and, and make a buck. The DoJ (or ATF or local PD or ...) can not get them for possessing and explosive. They might be able to get them for conspiracy, aiding and abetting though. Pretty hard to prove though in the home center case (a lot easier in the gun store case, since Tannerite is clearly designed to be mixed and exploded, not designed to be used for gardening and crafts). |
#184
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Exploding targets are shot indicators. They are only explosives if you use them to blow up anything other than the target. All of this, of course, is up to interpretation. I am not a lawyer. I am simply showing how the way the law is written, it is left for DA's and consumers to interpret. There is not law on the books that specifically says that Tannerite(r) brand targets are illegal. So everyone should be saying "exploding targets" and not Tannerite(r). This thread started with "aka Tannerite" in the subject line. That is why I started posting. Our company has been singled out in this on this forum.
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#185
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I'm here if anyone has any questions about the product. |
#186
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#187
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#188
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#189
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ETA: I'm not even going to comment on your novel legal theory that explosive are not explosives if they only blow up "targets".
__________________
My posts may contain general information related to the law, however, THEY ARE NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND I AM NOT A LAWYER. I recommend you consult a lawyer if you want legal advice. No attorney-client or confidential relationship exists or will be formed between myself and any other person on the basis of these posts. Pronouns I may use (such as "you" and "your") do NOT refer to any particular person under any circumstance. Last edited by Tincon; 08-22-2013 at 8:42 AM.. |
#190
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Again, all binary explosives are illegal in California and you will be charged with a felony. As much as Dena attempts to differentiate among different brands, it doesn't matter to the over zealous DAs in this state. Good luck to those that fail to listen this warning, but if you are charged, please contact me and maybe we can work together on a solution to this problem. |
#191
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Throttle back, turbo. Folks with explosives permits usually have those little DOT placards on their vehicles and are all too ready to present documentation. I was presenting a hypothetical recreational user of binary targets case. Once again, some guy from the internet knows how to do my job better than me.
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#192
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#193
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War is when your Government tells you who the enemy is...... Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself. Last edited by jaymz; 08-23-2013 at 8:00 AM.. Reason: Decided that being involved in a pissing contest is a bad idea. |
#194
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#195
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#197
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So really...it's not about the alleged crime but the money to fight it. The DA makes it so expensive to defend yourself hence the 'plea deal'. Nice.
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#198
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There is also the substantial risk of going to prison if you lose...
__________________
My posts may contain general information related to the law, however, THEY ARE NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND I AM NOT A LAWYER. I recommend you consult a lawyer if you want legal advice. No attorney-client or confidential relationship exists or will be formed between myself and any other person on the basis of these posts. Pronouns I may use (such as "you" and "your") do NOT refer to any particular person under any circumstance. |
#199
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You really think someone will get prison time for using a product as listed on the container, legally sold in this state? Can anyone cite who is in prison for using Tannerite in the prescribed manner?
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#200
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There's a kid facing possible 5 years jail time for dropping dry ice into a water filled can at disneyland. Yes, in Cali it's very foreseeable that someone could go to jail especially if they don't have $50k to shell out on a defense for using "shot indicators".
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“Deadly assault weapons have no place in Massachusetts. These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense. They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people.” Mitt Romney 2012 Republican Presidential Candidate |
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