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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 07-03-2013, 9:42 AM
formerTexan formerTexan is offline
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Default 6th Circuit: ATF Exemptions for pre'81 sears and open bolt guns no good

Brief:
http://www.firearmscoalition.org/ind...ate&Itemid=144

ruling from court (PDF):
http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions...3a0528n-06.pdf

scary part:
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  #2  
Old 07-03-2013, 11:30 AM
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adamsreeftank adamsreeftank is offline
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This part caught my eye:
Quote:
Although the auto sears never had serial numbers in the first place, three of the other machineguns found by the ATF had their serial numbers removed. These were World War II-era submachine guns (colloquially known as “grease guns”), which had been sawed in half and distributed as demilitarized scrap by the U.S. Government.2 The ATF welded the two halves of one of the grease guns together, and with the addition of spare machinegun parts and 90 minutes of labor, successfully managed to restore the grease gun to full capability. Finding the guns could be “readily restored,” the district court applied the enhancement.
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  #3  
Old 07-03-2013, 11:31 AM
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Oh, but EVERYONE trusts the NON-partisan oligarchs!!!
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  #4  
Old 07-03-2013, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamsreeftank View Post
This part caught my eye:
Although the auto sears never had serial numbers in the first place, three of the other machineguns found by the ATF had their serial numbers removed. These were World War II-era submachine guns (colloquially known as “grease guns”), which had been sawed in half and distributed as demilitarized scrap by the U.S. Government.2 The ATF welded the two halves of one of the grease guns together, and with the addition of spare machinegun parts and 90 minutes of labor, successfully managed to restore the grease gun to full capability. Finding the guns could be “readily restored,” the district court applied the enhancement.

Next step - judge someone guilty of owning a machine gun when they have a CNC or own a metal shop and a hunk of metal because you can clearly "readily restore" that hunk of metal to full auto capability with the CNC. It's especially easy with the "addition of spare machinegun parts."
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  #5  
Old 07-03-2013, 12:20 PM
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wait if this is a change don't they have to open the registry for some amnesty registrations i think i have a shoelace from some 1981 vans
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  #6  
Old 07-03-2013, 12:23 PM
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Yeah, this doesn't seem all that relevant to us here in good 'ol KA
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:24 PM
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Hrmmmmmm interesting... so will they let all us open bolt owners add our guns to the registry?
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:45 PM
ddestruel ddestruel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disintelligentsia View Post
Next step - judge someone guilty of owning a machine gun when they have a CNC or own a metal shop and a hunk of metal because you can clearly "readily restore" that hunk of metal to full auto capability with the CNC. It's especially easy with the "addition of spare machinegun parts."
i think this is the dangerously attached string that needs to be challenged in this ruling.

This ruling creates more problems than it resolved. if the federal government wanted the NFA to be the mechanism for defining, tracking and registering dangerous or unusual weapons. Congress then charged the BATF with making determinations to clarify questions or issues regarding this yet the court says the BATF's determination is invalid, and since congress did away with the availability of tax stamps for the NFA in 1986 then are they not infringing on the right by granting those in possession of such constructive items that can be used no relief or option to exercising the right. Denial of the right versus careful regulation and tracking of "dangerous and unusual" seems to be a valid question at this juncture. otherwise everyone with a piece of scrap metal, dremil tool and a file could be caught up in this ruling.

heck next thing is if you have a rubber band in your house you could be guilty of attempting to "construct" a mechanism for firing more than one shot at a time
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Last edited by ddestruel; 07-03-2013 at 12:48 PM..
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  #9  
Old 07-03-2013, 1:01 PM
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How is 90 minutes of working parts "readily restorable? How long would it take to CNC machine a full auto M16 fire control pocket in an 80%? Does that make it readily restorable?
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Old 07-03-2013, 1:30 PM
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While I agree this decision sucks, I'm not ready to freak out about the readily restorable issue. I did freak out the first time I read that they actually took a destroyed receiver and welded it up.

BUT, my understanding is that "readily restorable" only applies to things that were at one point considered machineguns. It goes with the "once a machinegun, always a machinegun" stance that makes it impossible for the CMP to convert M14s to semi auto and sell them.

SO if you had a machinegun receiver that was cut in half AND all the parts to put it back together, then if its possible to simply weld the receiver back together and assemble it then you may be in trouble.

On the other hand, if you have a semi-auto AR15 receiver that has NEVER been a machinegun, and happen to use an M16 BCG that is not by itself capable of creating full-auto capability you would probably be fine. Its only if something at one point has been considered a machinegun that you have to worry about it.

It's kind of like the CA DROS system classifying something as a pistol vs Long Gun. Sure you could take a long gun or "other" receiver and make it into a pistol, but as far as CA is concerned once it is DROS's as one thing it can't be made into something else.
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Old 07-03-2013, 1:34 PM
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Also, I'm not sure this would even be an issue for anything but an M3 grease gun. It's receiver is basically a tube, so it wouldn't be hard to weld two pieces together. As opposed to an M14 receiver, where its hard even for pros to make a working gun out of a demilled receiver.

Maybe an AK, since its just a box of sheet metal. I'd be real careful with parts kits receivers, and I suspect that is why when you get a G3 or similar parts kit you only get stubs and chunks of the receiver, not the whole thing.
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Old 07-03-2013, 2:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrr View Post
Also, I'm not sure this would even be an issue for anything but an M3 grease gun. It's receiver is basically a tube, so it wouldn't be hard to weld two pieces together. As opposed to an M14 receiver, where its hard even for pros to make a working gun out of a demilled receiver.

Maybe an AK, since its just a box of sheet metal. I'd be real careful with parts kits receivers, and I suspect that is why when you get a G3 or similar parts kit you only get stubs and chunks of the receiver, not the whole thing.
ATF demil "specs" have changed over time. Even current ones, it is possible to for a 07/02 to "reweld" a current demil'ed MG. It is harder, since the torch cuts are wider, and in at least 2 places, but still doable.

Back in the 60's and 70's, the demil standards were less onerous, one simple cut is all that was needed, so buying a parts kit and doing a Form 1 was a reasonable endeavor.

@CAL.BAR
This is applicable to those who own "pre-ban" open bolt semi auto firearms in California, as well as any "vintage" parts kits which are not considered firearms at all (well, at least before this).

I can't find any news about possible appeals of this, so I hope there are discussions among the legal beagles and we may finally see an amnesty that is actually a good thing
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