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  #161  
Old 10-05-2014, 8:16 AM
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Scores are up on the SDPS site now, although I hope they add the Overall and Stage Detail listings.

http://www.sdps-idpa.org/scores/2014/2014-10-04.htm
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  #162  
Old 10-05-2014, 8:36 AM
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Originally Posted by reckoner View Post
How did everyone do?
Very technical and fun match. No easy stages. My favorite was the "accelerator" stage where the knife threat comes at you and disappears within 2.5 seconds. I managed to get 4 shots off on it, down 0.

I didn't have my best match - I was down 71. I made some dumb mistakes - going to fast without calling my second shots. No penalties, but I had 5 mikes on the day.
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  #163  
Old 10-05-2014, 8:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
I hope they add the Overall and Stage Detail listings.
Ditto
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  #164  
Old 10-05-2014, 9:09 AM
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Congrats to everyone! Sounds like it was a fun match.
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  #165  
Old 10-05-2014, 9:52 AM
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The MD, Staff and Stage Designers put a lot of effort into the Match. Overall it was very well run.

The SOs were friendly, courteous and professional - except for the SOs on Stage #6 on Bay #9 (Closing Time). The SOs on this stage were professional, but not very friendly or courteous. Several of the shooters on my squad made comments about these SOs.

None of the shooters were allowed in the bay, even to video. No one was sure why, because there was plenty of room at the rear of the bay and none of the other bays had this "rule". When the range was called clear, if shooters were not immediately on their way to tape the SOs were yelling at them and making unnecessary comments. Even during taping, these SOs were making snappy comments if someone wasn't doing something exactly how they wanted it.

A shooter that had already gone first on another stage was chosen as the first shooter. We told the SOs that this shooter had already gone first once today, and asked if another shooter could go first. They snapped back that it didn't matter. All the other stages had allowed our squad to choose the shooting order.

People spend a lot of money and time to come to a state match: match fee, ammo, gas, hotel etc. Some people even flew to this match. I would expect the SOs would treat the shooters in a more friendly and courteous manner, like every other stage did.
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  #166  
Old 10-05-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDPA_Rules View Post
The MD, Staff and Stage Designers put a lot of effort into the Match. Overall it was very well run.

The SOs were friendly, courteous and professional - except for the SOs on Stage #6 on Bay #9 (Closing Time). The SOs on this stage were professional, but not very friendly or courteous. Several of the shooters on my squad made comments about these SOs.

None of the shooters were allowed in the bay, even to video. No one was sure why, because there was plenty of room at the rear of the bay and none of the other bays had this "rule". When the range was called clear, if shooters were not immediately on their way to tape the SOs were yelling at them and making unnecessary comments. Even during taping, these SOs were making snappy comments if someone wasn't doing something exactly how they wanted it.

A shooter that had already gone first on another stage was chosen as the first shooter. We told the SOs that this shooter had already gone first once today, and asked if another shooter could go first. They snapped back that it didn't matter. All the other stages had allowed our squad to choose the shooting order.

People spend a lot of money and time to come to a state match: match fee, ammo, gas, hotel etc. Some people even flew to this match. I would expect the SOs would treat the shooters in a more friendly and courteous manner, like every other stage did.
I remember that stage. I recall the SOs being firm, but not harsh. There was a lot to tape/reset, so I know those guys needed to keep things moving so that they didn't become a choke point for the match.

As for shooting order, we had no problems because we handed the ASO our score sheets as a group and in the shooting order we wanted. After 20 major matches, I've come to realize that I really prefer sorting the squad scoresheets by shooter number (with a different shooter starting each stage). First, it guarantees that the same person doesn't go first more than once. And second, it helps you know when you are coming up to shoot since you shoot after the same person in each stage (unless it is your turn to go first). Helps reduce the "I didn't realize that it was my turn to shoot."

I agree that SOs should give some level of priority to being good representatives of the match staff, but I also know that sometimes a shooter or squad may have a bad experience that doesn't truly reflect the quality of that SO group. I've run major matches before, and there wasn't an SO squad there that I wouldn't have been happy to run a stage at one of my matches.
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  #167  
Old 10-05-2014, 12:57 PM
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I have to ask - did someone really get 9 FTDRs? How did that happen?
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  #168  
Old 10-05-2014, 1:08 PM
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Originally Posted by reckoner View Post
I have to ask - did someone really get 9 FTDRs? How did that happen?
My guess is that they had an illegal gun. If they had the ability to make the gun legal (or switch to a legal backup gun), then I believe the match staff would allow them to continue shooting for score, but had to accept an FTDR on every stage in which they had already used the illegal weapon.
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  #169  
Old 10-05-2014, 1:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ES13Raven View Post
Ditto
Slightly different URL takes you to scores that include sub-categories and stage details. No overall scores, though (I believe HQ frowns on posting those at sanctioned matches, but I'm not positive about that).

http://sdps-idpa.org/2014/results/2014-10-04.htm
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  #170  
Old 10-05-2014, 1:27 PM
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Shooters gun was stolen the night before the match and was using a borrowed gun, is the way I understood it. Gun came in too heavy.
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  #171  
Old 10-05-2014, 1:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
No overall scores, though (I believe HQ frowns on posting those at sanctioned matches, but I'm not positive about that).
They included overall scores in last years results, and usually announce them for their monthly matches. Hopefully they will include them. They are not official, but nice to see.
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  #172  
Old 10-05-2014, 2:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
As for shooting order, we had no problems because we handed the ASO our score sheets as a group and in the shooting order we wanted. After 20 major matches, I've come to realize that I really prefer sorting the squad scoresheets by shooter number (with a different shooter starting each stage). First, it guarantees that the same person doesn't go first more than once. And second, it helps you know when you are coming up to shoot since you shoot after the same person in each stage (unless it is your turn to go first). Helps reduce the "I didn't realize that it was my turn to shoot."
This would be great. The SO really doesn't want to put a shooter 1st or last more than once in a match. Also having the Squad order the sheets makes it easy for the ASO to call the order.

As to time and investment. Obviously the critical match personnel and stage designers have put countless hours into the match. Many of the ASO's took at least one day off work and spent Wednesday/Thursday setting up the stage. Some of needed Vicodin after stage setting Then Friday with an SO shoot in which active target problems came to light. Then SO'd Saturday.

Everyone has a big investment.
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  #173  
Old 10-05-2014, 8:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoner View Post
I have to ask - did someone really get 9 FTDRs? How did that happen?
I was on the same squad with Corey, we had tech after 9 stages, he told me it was a stuck firing pin safety, so he got 9 FTDRs. I think he used a backup gun for the rest of the match.
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  #174  
Old 10-06-2014, 5:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ES13Raven View Post
They included overall scores in last years results, and usually announce them for their monthly matches. Hopefully they will include them. They are not official, but nice to see.
For those that wanted to see this, I copied and sorted the information for you. I couldn't attach the spreadsheet directly, so it is attached within the .zip file.

Shelton
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 2014_CA_IDPA_Championships_Overall.pdf (97.4 KB, 54 views)
File Type: zip 2014_CA_IDPA_Championships_Overall.zip (36.4 KB, 16 views)
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  #175  
Old 10-06-2014, 5:42 AM
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choo2x, Thanks, Greatly appreciated!
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  #176  
Old 10-06-2014, 7:04 AM
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Anyone know what happened to Bob Hostetter?

Scott
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  #177  
Old 10-06-2014, 7:18 AM
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Anyone willing to answer some questions about IDPA and getting my son started?
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  #178  
Old 10-06-2014, 7:21 AM
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Anyone willing to answer some questions about IDPA and getting my son started?
Feel free to PM me.
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  #179  
Old 10-06-2014, 8:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerrywho View Post
I was on the same squad with Corey, we had tech after 9 stages, he told me it was a stuck firing pin safety, so he got 9 FTDRs. I think he used a backup gun for the rest of the match.
Man, that's too bad.

BTW, congrats to you and Jerold on your match bumps!
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  #180  
Old 10-06-2014, 12:40 PM
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you know it was tough when the AVERAGE Points down was 90

(on 11 stages)

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  #181  
Old 10-06-2014, 12:42 PM
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My fpb also did not appear to be working right at tech. Sadly. If I'd had a back up gun and elected to continue I would have also receive and FTDR for every stage I had shot up to that point. And of course shoot for no score.

I elected to just watch the rest of the match.

Some bays definitely became choke points.
Was there anything other than brochures and a water bottle (that leaked) in the shooter's bags at registration?
We were not out of there until after 8pm. A 13 hour day for competitors.
One set of SO's told our squad multiple times to pick up brass so they could leave earlier at the end of the day. ( I refused)
We gave stacks of sheets to SO's saying 'this is our shooting order'' only to have them shuffle it right away randomly. This happened 3 times.
I was told a radial tear counted on a no-shoot I shot "because that's how we're calling it this match"
Everything I just wrote is my own personal opinion and is not meant to demean or be inflammatory. Nor do I want it to be seen as sour grapes since I was DQ-ed. They are just my observations from this one match on this one day.

On the plus side, the prize table was great. The trophies were some of the better I've seen this year, with the DC trophies topping even those from the Carolina Cup in my opinion.
The stages were very challenging.
Duane, John, Scott and others were professional, fair and friendly. If they really do have plans come through to shoot a two day regional I think they are the best crew in the state to do it!!
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  #182  
Old 10-06-2014, 12:56 PM
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I know that some people get upset with IDPA due to the Safety Officer's "interpretation" of the stage description, and adding their own stipulations etc.

It seemed to be this way on Stage #6. The stage description reads:
"START: Standing at P1, hands at sides, gun concealed and loaded to division capacity. STAGE PROCEDURE: On the signal, engage T1 and T2 with 3 rounds each on the move to P2. All shots must be fired on the move. At P2, perform a mandatory reload with retention or tac-load then engage T3 and T4 with 3 rounds each, and PP1-PP2 from either side of the barricade."

We were told by the Safety Officers that we need to be shooting within the first 1-2 steps or we would receive a procedural.

I didn't think that a Safety Officer could dictate when shots are fired on the move...
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  #183  
Old 10-06-2014, 1:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by not-fishing View Post
As to time and investment. Obviously the critical match personnel and stage designers have put countless hours into the match. Many of the ASO's took at least one day off work and spent Wednesday/Thursday setting up the stage. Some of needed Vicodin after stage setting Then Friday with an SO shoot in which active target problems came to light. Then SO'd Saturday.
And tear down of the stages in the dark till very late at night and some the next day. Then you have the crazy folks from NVSA who did all that then ran their USPSA match the next day.
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  #184  
Old 10-06-2014, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rmatt View Post
My fpb also did not appear to be working right at tech. Sadly. If I'd had a back up gun and elected to continue I would have also receive and FTDR for every stage I had shot up to that point. And of course shoot for no score.

I elected to just watch the rest of the match.

Some bays definitely became choke points.
Was there anything other than brochures and a water bottle (that leaked) in the shooter's bags at registration?
We were not out of there until after 8pm. A 13 hour day for competitors.
One set of SO's told our squad multiple times to pick up brass so they could leave earlier at the end of the day. ( I refused)
We gave stacks of sheets to SO's saying 'this is our shooting order'' only to have them shuffle it right away randomly. This happened 3 times.
I was told a radial tear counted on a no-shoot I shot "because that's how we're calling it this match"
Everything I just wrote is my own personal opinion and is not meant to demean or be inflammatory. Nor do I want it to be seen as sour grapes since I was DQ-ed. They are just my observations from this one match on this one day.

On the plus side, the prize table was great. The trophies were some of the better I've seen this year, with the DC trophies topping even those from the Carolina Cup in my opinion.
The stages were very challenging.
Duane, John, Scott and others were professional, fair and friendly. If they really do have plans come through to shoot a two day regional I think they are the best crew in the state to do it!!
The 2 stages per first 3 bays worked last year much better as the stages were shorter and less complicated. RMatt neglected to say that our squad started on bay 4 and as such faced the worst backup of any squad. I shot the "Standards" almost in the dark, which sucks when you have "old eyes". We finished fully 20 minutes after all the other squads. All in all a great match with awesome stages. With the exception of the backup, this match was better run than the Nationals. Tech had an issue with my gun, as the guy had never seen one like it. With the safety on, the hammer will fall if the trigger is pulled, but the gun will not fire. I almost had to have him load it and try it before he believed what I said. Several S&W's are like that including the 952 and PC 5906. I will definitely be coming back next year.

Now a little self-promotion...

By the way, the gun and the trophy were both lost on the way home in a tragic automobile wreck

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  #185  
Old 10-06-2014, 9:49 PM
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The gang in Sacramento is tops. If there were a couple under-trained officials I didn't encounter them. Everyone, from registration, SO's, stat-shack, and Match officials were top-shelf. There were a couple of odd or illegal rule interpretations but that is not their fault. The RB is what it is and each stage briefing was clear and consistent from what I could tell. All in all if it was 10 degrees cooler It would have been one of my favorite majors. Duane, John, and the rest of the CSO's and SSO's including all the match staff put on an entertaining and super technical match.

What worked:
Prize table - amazing for an IDPA State match.
Match Staff - professional, and courteous.
Stage Staff - Fair and polished. SSO's worked as a team keeping cover and PE's accurately judged. Only those that I saw earn PE's got them.
Range surface - some of the best I have been on.
Match technical difficulty - It was a great balance of speed and skill, perfect for a State match.

What didn't work quite perfectly:
My shooting on stage 2. Ugh! I want a do over on that simple one.
The bathrooms could have used a mid day pumping or more.
Since the match can not start any earlier, limit the number of shooters or lessen the size or amount of stages.
Those water bottles didn't work for me. Mine leaked and it was inconvenient to get water.

Hope there will be a next year.
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  #186  
Old 10-06-2014, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ES13Raven View Post
I know that some people get upset with IDPA due to the Safety Officer's "interpretation" of the stage description, and adding their own stipulations etc.

It seemed to be this way on Stage #6. The stage description reads:
"START: Standing at P1, hands at sides, gun concealed and loaded to division capacity. STAGE PROCEDURE: On the signal, engage T1 and T2 with 3 rounds each on the move to P2. All shots must be fired on the move. At P2, perform a mandatory reload with retention or tac-load then engage T3 and T4 with 3 rounds each, and PP1-PP2 from either side of the barricade."

We were told by the Safety Officers that we need to be shooting within the first 1-2 steps or we would receive a procedural.

I didn't think that a Safety Officer could dictate when shots are fired on the move...
I tend to agree with you however it was a standard and not a scenario. As I ponder other standards I have shot I remember many of them telling me where shots must be made from or before, even on the move. In this case they were telling you to fire shot within a couple steps. The RB is quite liberal on standards and much of the IDPA logic goes out the window on a standards stage. I would have preferred them leaving it up to the shooter as it changed nothing, however this is another example of them being consistent as everyone was told the same thing from what I was told.
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  #187  
Old 10-07-2014, 7:08 AM
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I tend to agree with you however it was a standard and not a scenario. As I ponder other standards I have shot I remember many of them telling me where shots must be made from or before, even on the move. In this case they were telling you to fire shot within a couple steps. The RB is quite liberal on standards and much of the IDPA logic goes out the window on a standards stage. I would have preferred them leaving it up to the shooter as it changed nothing, however this is another example of them being consistent as everyone was told the same thing from what I was told.
Standards can use fault lines, should have used one if they wanted the first shot taken within a certain distance. If they are going to give a PE for not taking a shot soon enough, it should not be a judgment call.
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  #188  
Old 10-07-2014, 10:57 AM
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Standards can use fault lines, should have used one if they wanted the first shot taken within a certain distance. If they are going to give a PE for not taking a shot soon enough, it should not be a judgment call.
The problem with is with the classifier the fault lines are only used for not to exceed lines - not starting lines.

Quote:
String #1 - Draw and fire 2 shots each at T1 - T3 in any order while moving forward. All shots must be fired while moving straight toward T2. There is a forward fault line for this string at the 5-yard line.S
If I ever design a stage like this I'll remember to use fault lines like you stated within say 3 yards of P1. That would get my "Designer's Intent" across to shooters. But I'm a really poor and screwball stage designer
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  #189  
Old 10-07-2014, 12:12 PM
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If I ever design a stage like this I'll remember to use fault lines like you stated within say 3 yards of P1. That would get my "Designer's Intent" across to shooters. But I'm a really poor and screwball stage designer
FYI, it is always better to design an environment that forces the shooter to do what you want, rather than mandating things in the stage procedure. In this case, it would have been good to have some kind of vision barrier in place that would block the two initial targets after you've moved past a certain point rather than saying "You have to engage them within a step or two of drawing the gun."

It's bad stage design to say, "Yah, we know you can see the targets, but you're only allowed to shoot them the way we say" (this is a huge problem with the average local IDPA match). Beyond this stage and the one with the dumpster where you weren't allowed to re-engage the paper from behind cover (yet you could re-engage the steel next to the paper), Sac did an excellent job of making the environment force the shooter to engage in the manner the designer intended.
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  #190  
Old 10-07-2014, 12:21 PM
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FYI, it is always better to design an environment that forces the shooter to do what you want, rather than mandating things in the stage procedure. In this case, it would have been good to have some kind of vision barrier in place that would block the two initial targets after you've moved past a certain point rather than saying "You have to engage them within a step or two of drawing the gun."

It's bad stage design to say, "Yah, we know you can see the targets, but you're only allowed to shoot them the way we say" (this is a huge problem with the average local IDPA match). Beyond this stage and the one with the dumpster where you weren't allowed to re-engage the paper from behind cover (yet you could re-engage the steel next to the paper), Sac did an excellent job of making the environment force the shooter to engage in the manner the designer intended.
Amen to that, this has been my favorite match the past two years including the Nationals. Another issue with the dumpster stage is that it became partially shots limited for revolver shooters on the two targets that you could not re-engage. Not sure that was legal. I was going to change to revolver for the match, but I am kinda glad that they did not let me...
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  #191  
Old 10-07-2014, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
FYI, it is always better to design an environment that forces the shooter to do what you want, rather than mandating things in the stage procedure. In this case, it would have been good to have some kind of vision barrier in place that would block the two initial targets after you've moved past a certain point rather than saying "You have to engage them within a step or two of drawing the gun."

It's bad stage design to say, "Yah, we know you can see the targets, but you're only allowed to shoot them the way we say" (this is a huge problem with the average local IDPA match). Beyond this stage and the one with the dumpster where you weren't allowed to re-engage the paper from behind cover (yet you could re-engage the steel next to the paper), Sac did an excellent job of making the environment force the shooter to engage in the manner the designer intended.
Well said
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  #192  
Old 10-07-2014, 12:31 PM
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Just curious... anyone know what gun they used to chrono the 9mm?

I chrono'd my loads a week before the match when it was 63* and my 10 shot average was 899 fps.

When I got my chrono results - they were at 865 fps and too close for comfort at a sanctioned match.
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  #193  
Old 10-07-2014, 1:23 PM
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9mm 1911, 5 in barrel. We put more rounds through that gun than I did in the match. Most people were shooting 9mm. If you have a polygonal barrel, your velocity would be higher. We didn't have any re-chrono with the 9mm.

We did have to re-chrono quite a few with the 1911 45ACP. Most ended up like 100 fps higher.
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  #194  
Old 10-07-2014, 1:44 PM
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9mm 1911, 5 in barrel. We put more rounds through that gun than I did in the match. Most people were shooting 9mm. If you have a polygonal barrel, your velocity would be higher. We didn't have any re-chrono with the 9mm.
Thanks. I have a 5.3" polygonal barrel, so I guess that explains it.
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  #195  
Old 10-08-2014, 1:46 PM
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I am not really sure what the hang up is or was on stage 6, Far out standards. The COF read as follows.. "On the signal, engage T1 and T2 with 3 rounds each on the move to P2". This was a Standard exercise.. It does not say, on the signal move to P2 and engage the targets anytime prior to getting to P2.... We had the SO's give further verbal instructions to clarify. Every squad got the same instructions and had to shoot it the same way. Just like stage 2 of the IDPA classifier in which there are two fault lines, we gave the shooter a virtual fault line, if you will. You can what if, should have, would have all day, but in the end the instructions were clear and consistent. The instructions were further given to prevent people from gaming it. If the shooter was allowed to shoot at any point, we would be getting people running right up to cover and firing 6 fast shots in their last few steps. The stage was meant to be a challenge with partial targets, shooting on the move, followed by long range targets.

I am not sure why people show up to a major match and B4 even shooting it are trying to challenge the COF or legality. Glad you all enjoyed the match.

Last edited by John M; 10-08-2014 at 1:56 PM..
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  #196  
Old 10-08-2014, 4:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John M View Post
I am not really sure what the hang up is or was on stage 6, Far out standards. The COF read as follows.. "On the signal, engage T1 and T2 with 3 rounds each on the move to P2". This was a Standard exercise.. It does not say, on the signal move to P2 and engage the targets anytime prior to getting to P2.... We had the SO's give further verbal instructions to clarify. Every squad got the same instructions and had to shoot it the same way. Just like stage 2 of the IDPA classifier in which there are two fault lines, we gave the shooter a virtual fault line, if you will. You can what if, should have, would have all day, but in the end the instructions were clear and consistent. The instructions were further given to prevent people from gaming it. If the shooter was allowed to shoot at any point, we would be getting people running right up to cover and firing 6 fast shots in their last few steps. The stage was meant to be a challenge with partial targets, shooting on the move, followed by long range targets.
The issue is that the SOs provided instructions that were not only not in the printed CoF procedure, they were arbitrary and subjective. "You must begin shooting within a step or two" leaves a lot of leeway since a 6'4" shooter can cover more distance in two steps than a 5'0" shooter. Additionally, it leaves the penalty decision up to people who have no specific metric for what constitutes "a step or two."

Your statement that you wanted "to prevent people from gaming it" is part of the issue that many people have with IDPA. It's a game. Using all leeway made available to you by the environment and stated procedure for a competitive advantage is part of playing the game effectively. Someone could have still gamed the stage by taking two monster leaps forward before shooting, or fired one shot immediately and then fired the final five once they were on top of the targets. That's just part of the sport, and despite HQ's wishes otherwise, creative thinking should not be punished.

I am confused when you say that you gave shooters a "virtual fault line," though. We were given a verbal fault line, but that is not the same thing provided to the shooter in the Classifier. Wouldn't have been better to have dropped a couple of cones on the ground and stated that you must begin shooting before you pass the cones? That would have removed all subjectivity and arbitrariness from the mandated procedure, and given a metric for penalties that is equal for both shooter and SO.

As I said, I rolled my eyes when the instructions were given because I don't like verbal stage procedure caveats. But I figured it was a non-issue since the environment pretty much mandated that my shooting needed to happen sooner rather than later anyway.

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If the shooter was allowed to shoot at any point, we would be getting people running right up to cover and firing 6 fast shots in their last few steps. The stage was meant to be a challenge with partial targets, shooting on the move, followed by long range targets.
I understand. But I think it's a problem in IDPA that designers so often mandate actions rather than creating an environment that forces the competitor to engage in the desired way. On the stage in question, foot faults would have worked. Even better would be a vision barrier that eclipsed the initial targets after a certain point. Or non-threats that eclipse more of the threat target the farther downrange the competitor moved. All of those would remove the subjectivity of the verbal instruction we were given.

And as I said previously, this was a very minor issue in an overall superbly done match. This discussion is just nitpicking more for the sake of theory than any real criticism of the match.
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  #197  
Old 10-08-2014, 5:01 PM
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All good comments.... thanks
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Old 10-08-2014, 10:57 PM
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After a good bit of lurking I better register and post this:

SPDS IDPA imgur gallery - my gallery of all participants I had the privilege of taking photos of. I'm currently working on getting everything posted by the end of the week but after 515 photos of 85 competitors my eyes need a little break.

I got almost everyone on both Friday and Saturday........ except for the group with team Calguns I'm afraid.
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Old 10-08-2014, 11:57 PM
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I got almost everyone on both Friday and Saturday........ except for the group with team Calguns I'm afraid.


I didn't recall seeing a photographer around, so that makes sense.
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Old 10-09-2014, 9:26 AM
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After a good bit of lurking I better register and post this:

SPDS IDPA imgur gallery - my gallery of all participants I had the privilege of taking photos of. I'm currently working on getting everything posted by the end of the week but after 515 photos of 85 competitors my eyes need a little break.

I got almost everyone on both Friday and Saturday........ except for the group with team Calguns I'm afraid.


Scott
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