Training Method

[HK35]

Originally Posted by JRV

LOL comparing tachypsychia to fight or flight response. Two completely different things. Thanks for your input.

Uh oh! I respectfully suggest you do some reading on tachypsychia as it appears that you do not have a basic understanding of physiological responses in the brain during stressfull situations.




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[FireSnake77]

Thanks for the response.

Thank you sir for a productive discussion.

There is certainly value in offlines as you draw and engage, and continuing to offline, especially as you reload. Dancing around is just gimmicky, IMO.

Are you referring to the concept of lateral movement, or the way that the students were moving? I teach 'em to move naturally whether that's a lateral sprint to simulate moving to cover/concealment, or quickly lateral step. It's usually the pre-trained people that ended up shuffling.

Multiple shots until the target is down is necessary. Pepper poppers are great, but once the popper is down, then what? Move to the next target?

Assess and if there is another target, move laterally and engage.

The range I use has turning targets, and exercise I do with my officers is to start with one shot per facing in 3 seconds at 5 yards, and when the target faces they offline left and right (this is from the holster). I start increasing the shot count and reducing the time. Somewhere into the second mag, I instruct them to engage the target as long as it's faced. At that point I vary the facing time from 1 to 5 seconds. They may be just getting back into the holster, or in the middle of a reload, when I face the target.

So if I understand correctly, the first mag is a warm up using a predetermined number of shots coupled with increasing time constraints, then by the 2nd mag the targets turn away randomly to vary the string of fire, and appear randomly to vary when a threat is recognized? Can the targets turn up at random locations as well? (ie, lane 3,4, and 7 turn to face the shooter) I think this would add the variable of where to shoot. I think we are in the same path in that the unpredictability is a key variable in training defensive firearms.

A variation of this drill is where I incorporate a 180 degree pivot. In addition to the target (Transtar II) I have taped 1-3 pictures of a gun, cell phone, caulk gun, coke bottle, police badge, phaser, hair dryer. When they hear the target face, they pivot 180, draw and identify if their target is shoot/no shoot, and engage. What a lot of them did was to shoot if they saw a gun; a moment later you would hear "****" when they noticed their target also had a badge.

My main concern with these type of drills, is if the LEO perceives a pistol, should he not shoot? If in that moment he perceived a threat and didn't recognize the good guy, is he wrong about taking the shot? He is definitely wrong in his perception, but is the action wrong? It would be great to start a new thread trouble shooting this dilemma. If we can come up with a solution, that would be awesome.

I would then move some of the pictures around and do it again. Then, I would tell them once they have identified and if needed engaged their target, look at the targets to the left and right, and engage those, if appropriate. They started out with only one or two mags, so between the second and third cycle, I would hand them each another mag, which I had loaded with one or two dummy rounds. This drill accomplishes pivot drills, target ID, multiple shot AND multiple target engagement, reloads AND failure to fire drills.

Nice. I'm assuming it's a range that limits lateral movement? My only concern here is if a second or third threat is recognized after shooting the first one, isn't it safer to get off the X and then take the shot?

They really love this drill, and I saw fast AND accurate shooting. Most of my shooter have the necessary mechanical skills; it's when they think or overthink something they fail or perform sub par. This exercise focuses their attention on the target, and their hands and muscle memory takes over the action of drawing, aiming, pulling the trigger and reloading.

Once you have committed to pulling the trigger, the actual act should be strictly from muscle memory. What your brain is doing is determining the level of threat, additional threats, non threats, available cover, etc.

Sounds like the training is more representative of a dynamic critical incident than most.

I completely agree that you don't need to use the sights at your typical real life shooting distances. At 7 to 10 yards use may get a flash sight picture, but up to 5 yards, if you are at full extension and have a decent stance and trigger control, you get combat effective hits. How fast you shoot depends on your skill level and what you consider to be combat effective hits. Equipment can speed or slow you down, as can where you are in the OODA loop.

Copy. I understand what you mean by OODA. Check out this article examining OODA and let me know what you think:
http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_...e002451505.cfm

Talk soon breda,
Mike

[FireSnake77]

Originally Posted by HK35

JRV,

Have you taken physiology courses at all?

If so, then you should know that tachypsychia (AKA, fight of flight response, in relation to perception of time) is a psychological effect NOT physiological. Second, you should also know that the relative distortion of time is proportional to actual time hence tachypsychia should not affect one's ability to load a magazine.

Hi HK,

Tachypsychia is a result of a neuro-chemical cocktail that changes blood flow in the body to deliver a "turbo boost" to critical components of the human weapon system. The boost results in a psychological distortion in the perception of time since the frontal lobe (cognition) doesn't receive the same turbo cocktail.

Tachypsychia is a psychological event caused by a physiological reaction to a surprising, chaotic, and threatening stimulus.

Mike

[HK35]

Originally Posted by FireSnake77

Hi HK,

Tachypsychia is a result of a neuro-chemical cocktail that changes blood flow in the body to deliver a "turbo boost" to critical components of the human weapon system. The boost results in a psychological distortion in the perception of time since the frontal lobe (cognition) doesn't receive the same turbo cocktail.

Tachypsychia is a psychological event caused by a physiological reaction to a surprising, chaotic, and threatening stimulus.

Mike

Mike,

You just described a segment of the fight or flight response and the effects of epinephrine (AKA, adrenaline); the hormone/neurotransmitter release by the adrenal medulla during a fight or flight response.





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[JRV]

Originally Posted by The Virus

The script they have doesn't get that scientific

What exactly do you contribute besides running your mouth & talking ish?

[JRV]

Originally Posted by The Virus

The script must have run out.....

You're just so ninja that you can't grasp new concepts. Keep doing what you're doing & TNTSADOYWTTPL

Just curious how often do you teach? How many LEO, military, civilians, HLS officers & etc? Are you going to dance around this post too?

[FireSnake77]

Originally Posted by HK35

Mike,

You just described the effects of epinephrine (AKA, adrenaline). This is the hormone release by the adrenal medulla during a fight or flight response.





.

Partially true. I was referring to the initiation by the limbic system that initiates an increase in dopamine and corticosteroids, corticotropin‐releasing hormone, etc (flinch-startle response moment)

This cocktail triggers the adrenal glands to produce epinephrine (fight or flight moment)

The two are two different moments of a physiological chain of events.

The discrepancy between what you see (turbo eyes) and what you perceive (regular unleaded cognitive brain) causes you to speed up because you feel like you're moving to slow. This is how looking at your reload while under stress creates the potential for missing the mag well. And that's how tachypsychia effects your reload.

Mike

PS
I'm going offline for the night. Talk to you all in the AM.

[USM0083]

Originally Posted by FireSnake77

Thank you sir for a productive discussion.

Are you referring to the concept of lateral movement, or the way that the students were moving? I teach 'em to move naturally whether that's a lateral sprint to simulate moving to cover/concealment, or quickly lateral step. It's usually the pre-trained people that ended up shuffling.

It's the way they are moving. I've done a lot of FoF at FLETC using Sims, and IMO the ones that try dodge around like that miss, and miss badly.

So if I understand correctly, the first mag is a warm up using a predetermined number of shots coupled with increasing time constraints, then by the 2nd mag the targets turn away randomly to vary the string of fire, and appear randomly to vary when a threat is recognized? Can the targets turn up at random locations as well? (ie, lane 3,4, and 7 turn to face the shooter) I think this would add the variable of where to shoot. I think we are in the same path in that the unpredictability is a key variable in training defensive firearms.

I can turn one specific target only, or even/odds.

My main concern with these type of drills, is if the LEO perceives a pistol, should he not shoot? If in that moment he perceived a threat and didn't recognize the good guy, is he wrong about taking the shot? He is definitely wrong in his perception, but is the action wrong? It would be great to start a new thread trouble shooting this dilemma. If we can come up with a solution, that would be awesome.

This drill is simply to get the shooter to think about their environment, rather than shooting at a gun. I do not use the command "gun" as a prompt to fire. There are too many cases of off duty or undercover officers responding to a call and getting shot and killed. As a LEO you have to take in the totality of the the circumstances and environment, NOT just one aspect (you see a person with a gun.)

Nice. I'm assuming it's a range that limits lateral movement? My only concern here is if a second or third threat is recognized after shooting the first one, isn't it safer to get off the X and then take the shot?

Range limitations. I had between 7 and 10 shooters doing this at the same time, and I was working with time constraints. This type of training is balanced by FoF training, and FATS training.

Copy. I understand what you mean by OODA. Check out this article examining OODA and let me know what you think:
http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_...e002451505.cfm

Talk soon breda,
Mike

I will check it out.

EDIT: Good article!

[JRV]

Originally Posted by The Virus

Wow! Where have I ever claimed to be an instructor?
Where have I made any claims about my level of expertise in any field?
And apparently if I spend $1500 and 5 days learning marketing techniques and sales pitches I can teach CFS too.
Have you ever heard the term McDojo?

LOL you really are a joke. You have nothing of any use to share. Are you jealous you can't make a living teaching? Are you jealous a guy like me will be in Vegas this weekend teaching two 1-day courses to 30+ students while your stuck in your moms basement eating fritos, being negative and contributing nothing all while thinking how awesome you are?

You have only talked crap and haven't shared one positive concept or positive anything. All you've done is talk ish.

[The Virus]

You certainly do present yourself as a professional.
What leads you to believe I have any desire to be a firearms instructor?

How do you extract me thinking how awesome I am from anything I have posted?
I do enjoy fritos from time to time.

[brian5271]

Originally Posted by JRV

LOL you really are a joke. You have nothing of any use to share. Are you jealous you can't make a living teaching? Are you jealous a guy like me will be in Vegas this weekend teaching two 1-day courses to 30+ students while your stuck in your moms basement eating fritos, being negative and contributing nothing all while thinking how awesome you are?

You have only talked crap and haven't shared one positive concept or positive anything. All you've done is talk ish.

Please tell me the name of where you work. I want to make sure that I never accidently sign up for a course there. I do not deal well with such egotistical and unprofessional people and I certainly have zero desire to pay money to be around you.

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by JRV

Unlike most SD instructors you will never see Rob carry during a course. He doesn't demo every drill. It's not about what he can do or not do, it's about what he can teach. I don't carry ever during a course. I take a students gun to demo the critical incident reload & the shooting in motion drill. I rarely will demo anything else, unless I need to for the sake of a student.

Personally, I like to see the instructors demo almost every drill. Firstly, it demonstrates exactly how the student should perform the drill. Secondly, it impresses me more seeing that the instructor is a capable shooter.

I don't understand why drills are NOT demoed. I think it's critical.

Borrowing a student's pistol and permanently borrowing his ammo is not a good thing unless there are issues with the student's weapon.

[Rob Pincus]

You kids shouldn't play so rough, somebody's gonna start crying.

First: I fricken hate code names... seriously, Mike "Firesnakeeater77" or whatever? It took me half a page to figure out who the hell you were...

Second: What is the point here? Did someone have a question about what a vehicle tactics course has to do with teaching intuitive defensive shooting skills? Maybe, I can clear that up:

Nothing.

Did someone want to know what having the personal integrity to see one's own weaknesses as motivation to get better might have to do with the ability to teach others and motivate them to improve?

Maybe Everything.

*********

Was there anything else going on besides male genitalia measuring ??

Didn't think so...

*********

All of you should take a Time Out and think about why you come to this forum and why you are supposed to be discussing these topics... including "my guys".
(Except maybe HK35, who seems to have a good idea what the hell he was talking about, assuming he wasn't just trying to bust balls and sound like a know-it-all.).

-RJP

[The Virus]

Good to have you join in Mr Pincus.
The question wasnt regarding the course curriculum but the poor weapon handling skills, multiple safety violations and seemingly poor marksmanship of someone who is now one of your instructors.
I find in difficult to believe anyone could go from what seemed to be a novice to certified to instruct others in all of the aspects I listed, curriculum specifics aside in less than 6 months.

While the tone of this thread became less than ideal, I stand by my observation.

All spawned by a question of slide release technique in another thread. Which led to the creation of this thread by the said instructor.

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

[B][COLOR="Red"]

Was there anything else going on besides male genitalia measuring ??

Didn't think so...

*********

All of you should take a Time Out and think about why you come to this forum and why you are supposed to be discussing these topics... including "my guys".
(Except maybe HK35, who seems to have a good idea what the hell he was talking about, assuming he wasn't just trying to bust balls and sound like a know-it-all.).

In one broad brushstroke you denigrated and nullified every post of every poster in this thread (except possibly HK35 and even he's suspect).

[elSquid]

Originally Posted by ramzar

In one broad brushstroke you denigrated and nullified every post of every poster in this thread (except possibly HK35 and even he's suspect).

SILENCE! For he hath not come to teach, but rather rebuke! Lo, his ire flows deep and wide as does the mighty river Nile...

-- Michael

[Rob Pincus]

"ramzar",

No, not really.. just the posters more interested in genetalia measuring than anything else... I think you will see that the last couple of pages only had a handful of participants and not much productivity. I doubt that ZombieTactics, for one, feels like my post was totally out of line.
If the shoe fits, feel denigrated... if not, try to get past the drama and get back to what matters.
Personally, I think a lot of the recent posts are pretty easily nullified... and should be.

****

"virus"

I understand your observation. It is a fair question. The answer probably lies in an aspect of our training methodology which goes against tradition, which has been cited earlier in the thread: How well someone can shoot has nothing to do with how well they can teach others to shoot, so I don't even test my instructor candidates in regard to their ability to shoot or demo anything "at speed".. honestly, I think it is pretty obvious that an observer can learn a lot more from a slow demo than a blindingly fast one. The latter is just entertainment.

Yes, some people like to study under people who can perform... but that doesn't make it a truism that people MUST be able to outperform their students. Some of my peers at the top of the industry really do think they need to outshoot their students (thankfully, few, though)... I guess I Wonder if that means they hold their best students back?? or if they will retire from teaching as age takes it toll on their skills?? Or, will they conveniently join me in the confidence that my ability to make OTHERS better is my strength as a teacher, not my ability to perform a set of physical skills. Some people like to learn from people who can tell war stories.... some teenagers would prefer to go to a Michael Jordan fantasy camp and take pictures with a star than go to a skills development camp with coaches they've never heard of from the top colleges in the country. Luckily, the private sector firearms industry offers both types of instructor. No doubt, Michael Jordan can convey information to those fans, but he doesn't make a living doing it and he didn't make his career one of teaching. There are some GREAT Teachers that have BTDT as well, Kyle Lamb and Craig Douglas are two friends with impressive operational resumes and the gift for teaching. Both are great to have, but only one is important to improve others, the other is a marketing tool.

During CFS Instructor Development, we require a 90% or better on a closed book test of knowledge and a successful teaching demonstration on randomly selected topics from the curriculum on the final afternoon/evening of what it usually a 60 hr week (FWIW, over the last few years, as our prep/study materials have improved and the course lengthen to 5 days, the latter test is the one that more people fail)... after someone has taken at least one CFS course as an end user. Then, we require at least one successful team teaching experience with a senior instructor to become an Active Certified Instructor (to address one of your more spurious assertions, there is about an hour spent on marketing during CFSID and no related test questions.). We constantly update the program and our active instructors and they have standards they have to meet remain active. That is the process that Mike signed on for after one of his mentor's (one of my lead instructors), an active duty Navy Chief, recommended CFS as a means for him to improve his skills.
The program has been integrated or adopted by many LE Agencies, Military units and private companies and we have a lot of reason to believe in the program and it's efficacy. We have recently begun the process of being ISO9000 certified and a professional ISO Auditor has assured me that we met 95% of the requirements with our own standards and procedures, prior to any 'extra' effort. As noted earlier, we have about a 50% cert rate historically, with a diverse group of instructor candidates including guys like Mike who are relatively new to teaching firearms, guys like JRV with no military experience, Navy SQT Instructors and members of Army SF... and I've conducted extensive instructor development training at requests from LE Agencies with 6 officers up to the 2nd largest in the country, many of which have cert'd CFS Instructors as well. I'm a regular instructor at SWAT Round Up International, I've taught several times at the IALEFI Conference and I'll be the key note speaker at the Georgia Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor Conference next week. I'm not invited to provide training to those other instructors because I can tell war stories or because my resume as an 'operator' is impressive.

It may be a little anti-climatic, but you either get that or you don't. If you don't, then we're not the program for you... that's okay. Maybe you do get it, but Mike's not the instructor for you... that's okay too. We've got over 30 currently active status instructors and about 100 that have certified over the past decade. They range from SWAT/SF/SEAL types to shooting enthusiasts to local cops to a full time dog groomer. I believe that they can all help people better understand and develop defensive shooting skills... if that is what they are interested in.

I'm supposed to be working on a book on Counter Ambush Training Methods that tens of thousands of people will be reading over the next few years, but I found it worth an hour of my time to contribute to this thread that maybe 50 people will read because I take the reputation of our program seriously. It is unorthodox, so it is sometimes important to simply accept that fact and let people decide for themselves whether or not they are interested in hearing our perspective.

-Rob

[USM0083]

Mr. Pincus,

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I have one of your DVDs, put out through the Second Amendment Foundation. I found it to be very well done, with valid and useful concepts shown. A few things I don't agree with, but they are very minor and can be chalked up to philosophical differences. Some of your concepts I have used in my training programs.

I think much of the arguments that have spawned in this thread is due to the tone your instructors have taken. Example: saying that you can derive nothing from competitive shooting competitions.

Some of the videos that your instructors have posted here show the basic concepts that you demonstrate in the DVD I have, but the implementation of the concept comes out poorly.

Get training, and get training from different instructors with different training concepts, THEN apply it to your circumstance.

[ramzar]

Rob,

Performing a drill at full speed and demoing it are two different things. One has the sizzle the other has the practical application of making it crystal clear to the student how it's supposed to be done the CFS way. So, do you guys demo your drills and if not why?

If you could concisely explain the reasoning for the CFS reload technique that would also help.

Thanks,
Ramin

[Rob Pincus]

"USM",

Agreed.

In regard to the competition thing, I would say that my personal position is that there are better ways to spend your limited training time & resources than entering competitions and that if you are actually trying to win competitions (or "get the best score you can"), you are probably compromising your technique/gear/tactics to suit the competition rules.

Thanks.

****

Ramin,

Seriously, I am headed back to work... but, quickly, over the years, I have found that very few things actually benefit greatly from demos. Training time is always limited. Demo'ing my ability to perform a drill, I find totally useless (unless I want to impress students for some silly reason)... I find it important to EXPLAIN a drill and make sure students understand it. At the end of the day, if you have to choose between watching someone do a drill OR shooting a drill yourself, which will benefit you more? Ultimately, that is the choice, because training time is limited. I'd rather teach more and let my students shoot more and skip demos with a low value. Other things are very important to demo, but, as stated, demonstrating them slowly is most important. Our reload technique is one of this those things. Today I did about 15 demos of various presentation techniques (in slow motion, without actually firing a single shot) during an advanced pistol handling class that deals with unorthodox positions. Students generally don't have any clear idea what they are supposed to do without demos of the actual motions that are most efficient in these areas, so the time for the demo is well worth it. But, if I bothered to take a shot at the end of the presentations, that would require me to only demo at angles that I could point into a berm AND for students to wear eyes/ears through the demo... both of which detract from my ability to teach efficiently and the student's ability to learn as efficiently as possible. So, we may have some semantic issues here... there are plenty of "demos" in our program, but NO Demonstrations of our shooting ability... in fact, when I do shoot in a class (unless checking a firearms sights for a student, etc), I rarely shoot at a target.... for example, when shooting to get to slide lock and slo-mo demo a reload.

The reload technique that we teach (in the high compressed ready position, done without looking, utilizing an overhand rack to get the gun back into battery) is taught because we have found it to be the most reliable method over the widest set of plausible circumstances.

-Rob

[ZombieTactics]

I swear ... I go away for a couple of hours and all hell breaks loose.

The signal/noise ratio in this thread is pretty awful, but I submit it's possible to filter out a lot of the "noise" and come away with something useful. Aside from the nonsense, there is actually some good, productive stuff to think about here.

Hello to Rob ... thanks for chiming in. It's too bad the occasion isn't more pleasant.

[Rob Pincus]

Aside from the nonsense, there is actually some good, productive stuff to think about here.

Valid... I probably over-chastised a little... and, to be honest, I only started reading at about page 4, which I guess is where a lot of the drama started.

Maybe some people from the forum will actually come out to the courses I'm teaching out in Cali on Oct and we can have some face-to-face constructive interaction !

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

Maybe some people from the forum will actually come out to the courses I'm teaching out in Cali on Oct and we can have some face-to-face constructive interaction !

I see that you're personally teaching the Advanced Pistol Handling course on Oct. 17-18th in the Sacramento area. Not only am I busy that weekend but I'd rather take courses in Southern California. So, I signed up for the Combat Focus Shooting newsletter just now and will look for you down here in 2013.

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by The Virus

If safety, weapon handling skills, marksmanship (just to name a few) aren't important core items in any FIREARMS instruction program, then I stand corrected and have been horribly misled.

More to the point, nobody has actually suggested that those particulars are unimportant. You can twist words or context to make it appear so, but that would be wrong.

Perhaps it's just a simple misunderstanding on your part. I'd hate to think that your motivations are disingenuous. Please don't make it appear otherwise by posting some out-of-context quote accompanied by a slanted analysis or snarky come-back.

It's been a contentious thread, and perhaps it's time to start actually discussing things more and insulting each other less.

[JRV]

Originally Posted by The Virus

If safety, weapon handling skills, marksmanship (just to name a few) aren't important core items in any FIREARMS instruction program, then I stand corrected and have been horribly misled.

Since I assume you're referring to Mike I'm going to step in. I have personally had Mike on my line as a student before he was a CFS instructor. He did nothing unsafe.

I've also been on the range when Mike was teaching with Rob to become active. His instruction was spot on, he has a great understanding of CFS methodology on an instructor level and ran a safe line.

Could the videos he posted been a little more concise? Yes, but that is why I had a conversation with him and he pulled the videos down. He's a new CFS instructor and he's excited about the program. He got a little over zealous and posted a video to show a concept but didn't dissecting the video from a critical stand point. It happens.

[Bobby Hated]

Originally Posted by brian5271

Please tell me the name of where you work. I want to make sure that I never accidently sign up for a course there. I do not deal well with such egotistical and unprofessional people and I certainly have zero desire to pay money to be around you.

ditto

[Bobby Hated]

Originally Posted by ZombieTactics

I don't think many in this thread would really argue with you on this point. Some of the back-n-forth in this thread is unfortunately a carry over from another thread, where a couple of people seemed to suggest that competition ONLY was all anyone needed. The context here seem more reasonable and productive overall, despite some of the *****ing and sniping. (IMHO)

you definately got it twisted up there bud.

this all started with JRV suggesting that competition is worthless for SD.

a point he continues to argue page after page after page after page.

(for the record you are a much more reasonable person than he is so i hate to tar you with the same feathers)

[Bobby Hated]

Originally Posted by JRV

Quick question John Hackleman coached Chuck Liddell to the level of being a UFC champion. Has John ever fought in the UFC? Has he ever fought for the UFC belt? Tony Blauer has never fought in the UFC or been a SF guy. Yet he trains SF guys, UFC fighters, civilians and etc.

So the thinking of you NEED to be a teams guy, LEO, super ninja and etc to teach something is seriously flawed. I have met plenty of switched on team guys, LEO, contractors and etc that couldn't teach worth a *****. Just because you can do such and such doesn't mean you can articulate the concepts to someone at an instructor level.

FAIL!! The UFC DID NOT EXIST when hackleman was an active fighter.

hackleman did compete throughout his teens and 20's, winning multiple state and regional Golden Gloves competitions, he fought on the US Army boxing team in the early 80's and competed in many full contact karate competitions in the 70's and 80's both before and after his stint in the Army. him and his gym were regulars on the full contact/shotokan circuit for years when i was a little kid. (i was training kenpo with ed parker at the time)

however your example does prove our point that those who have competed in a combat sport make the best coaches. true the best competitors dont necessarily make the best coaches, but all the good coaches are former competitors.

[Bobby Hated]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

it is sometimes important to simply accept that fact and let people decide for themselves whether or not they are interested in hearing our perspective.

-Rob

we're happy to hear your opinion, and that of your outspoken disciple.

we're also free to disagree if you or your proxy fails to convince us.

the argument that practicing in competition doesnt improve our ability in a real life situation, fails to convince a number of us.

sorry.

-Bob

[brian5271]

Originally Posted by Bobby Hated

you definately got it twisted up there bud.

this all started with JRV suggesting that competition is worthless for SD.

a point he continues to argue page after page after page after page.

(for the record you are a much more reasonable person than he is so i hate to tar you with the same feathers)

This is what irritated me so bad. I am not at all suggesting that competition can replace, or even is a substitute for training; but it does have value for self defense.

Mr. Pincus – Thank you for joining the conversation. I would really be interested in your opinion on competition. Please keep in mind that I am not talking about it replacing training; more like somebody else’s analogy of it being like a boxer hitting a heavy bag, or my earlier analogy of it beilng like a baseball player hitting balls off of a tee or in cages for practice.

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by brian5271

Mr. Pincus – Thank you for joining the conversation. I would really be interested in your opinion on competition. Please keep in mind that I am not talking about it replacing training; more like somebody else’s analogy of it being like a boxer hitting a heavy bag, or my earlier analogy of it beilng like a baseball player hitting balls off of a tee or in cages for practice.

Pincus did express his viewpoint on competitive shooting in post# 210:

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

In regard to the competition thing, I would say that my personal position is that there are better ways to spend your limited training time & resources than entering competitions and that if you are actually trying to win competitions (or "get the best score you can"), you are probably compromising your technique/gear/tactics to suit the competition rules.

[brian5271]

Originally Posted by ramzar

Pincus did express his viewpoint on competitive shooting in post# 210:

Thanks for the reply - I missed that post – I must have been at the concession stand getting my refreshments ;-)

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by The Virus

In response to my observation of the said instructors admitted deficiencies at a course I was attending:

To qoute "I understand your observation. It is a fair question. The answer probably lies in an aspect of our training methodology which goes against tradition, which has been cited earlier in the thread: How well someone can shoot has nothing to do with how well they can teach others to shoot, so I don't even test my instructor candidates in regard to their ability to shoot or demo anything "at speed".. honestly, I think it is pretty obvious that an observer can learn a lot more from a slow demo than a blindingly fast one. The latter is just entertainment."

That appears to be precisely in context.
I was addressing the issues listed....

No, you did precisely what I suggested you might. You took how well someone (who was not even an instructor at the time) performed in some class and switched context entirely by conflating that with what he might teach or consider important in teaching a course ... further associating this with CFS: "... if safety, weapon handling skills, marksmanship (just to name a few) aren't important core items in any FIREARMS instruction program ..."

See what you did there? I hope you do, because I'd hate to think you're just doing this kind of thing to stir up an argument.

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by Bobby Hated

... this all started with JRV suggesting that competition is worthless for SD. ...

Well firstly, that's a notion I disagree with. As I suggested earlier, I'm betting that if you sat JRV down for a cup of coffee, you'd find that the resistance to the possibility of competition having value is a lot lower than it might appear in this thread. Rob never said comp was "worthless", but simply offered his professional opinion that there are better ways to spend your time/money if your focus is strictly SD. Maybe that's just me wanting to be peacemaker, but I'd bet money on it.

I'd also note (as I previously did) that some of the rancor comes from the perception that some comp shooters believe that competition in the end-all/be-all in terms of measuring likely SD performance. That's a carry-over from another thread. JRV is acerbic and combative, but the blame cannot be said to be entirely his. This is especially so when some appear to participate in these discussion for no other reason than to stir up trouble.

A lot of this is really just "my dad can beat up your dad", which is unfortunate.

[Bobby Hated]

Originally Posted by ZombieTactics

Well firstly, that's a notion I disagree with. As I suggested earlier, I'm betting that if you sat JRV down for a cup of coffee, you'd find that the resistance to the possibility of competition having value is a lot lower than it might appear in this thread. Rob never said comp was "worthless", but simply offered his professional opinion that there are better ways to spend your time/money if your focus is strictly SD. Maybe that's just me wanting to be peacemaker, but I'd bet money on it.

I'd also note (as I previously did) that some of the rancor comes from the perception that some comp shooters believe that competition in the end-all/be-all in terms of measuring likely SD performance. That's a carry-over from another thread. JRV is acerbic and combative, but the blame cannot be said to be entirely his. This is especially so when some appear to participate in these discussion for no other reason than to stir up trouble.

A lot of this is really just "my dad can beat up your dad", which is unfortunate.

well my perception of their position is not only that competition is worthless, but that its actually a negative because it builds "bad habits" that will carry over to a SD situation. so i cant join you on that one. i dont agree with that perspective at all.

but as to the 2nd point, i do not know any comp shooters who consider competition alone a sufficient training regimen for SD, and i dont see any posts here that say as much. please quote them if i am wrong.

[HK35]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

The reload technique that we teach (in the high compressed ready position, done without looking, utilizing an overhand rack to get the gun back into battery) is taught because we have found it to be the most reliable method over the widest set of plausible circumstances.

-Rob

Rob,

That's a much better way of explaining why you teach said method!

I tried reloading without looking and it's actually not that bad as long as you index your weapon properly. With that I mean the arm and elbow in contact with rib cage and gun in your workspace giving you a consistent point of reference for the magazine well.

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by Bobby Hated

well my perception of their position is not only that competition is worthless, but that its actually a negative because it builds "bad habits" that will carry over to a SD situation. so i cant join you on that one. i dont agree with that perspective at all.

I think the point is that it can build bad habits if winning the competition is your only goal. That's an observation not unique to this thread. It's been one made by quite a few people who actually compete. It's also pretty close to the opinions of people like Jeff Cooper and Ken Hackathorn ... (who originated/founded things like IPSC/IDPA, etc.) so it should not be seen as especially controversial. Whether it will have negative effects (for SD) is mostly up to the individual and how he works competition into his personal goals. IMHO.

Originally Posted by Bobby Hated

but as to the 2nd point, i do not know any comp shooters who consider competition alone a sufficient training regimen for SD, and i dont see any posts here that say as much. please quote them if i am wrong.

I'm not going to start a fight by quoting someone from another thread, who has not participated in this one. I would invite you to review the earlier "Manually rack or ..." thread however, and tell me if none of the comments there come across in precisely this way. This is particularly so regarding force-on-force courses or exercises. I get a strong "you don't need that (SD training) because the timer is the final authority" mentality. Maybe I am mistaking it, but it sure appears that way to me.

[USM0083]

When it comes to "gun games" I believe it comes down to taking the techniques from that venue and applying what works appropriately where the rubber meets the road.

Certainly there is some value in competition shooting. Much of it will derive from what the shooter hopes to accomplish.

When I shot IDPA, I did so with my duty rig and pistol. I wasn't competing against anyone but myself. I tried different techniques that I saw and used what worked for me, in the context of a LE environment. Due to my equipment, I was slower on the draw and reloads, but made up lots of time with efficient movements. When I did FoF training at FLETC, I tried out these techniques to see what worked and didn't. My technique has changed slowing but constantly over the past decade.

I can certainly see how shooting in competition can negatively afffect your abilities outside that venue.

One of my better shooters, who also shoots IPSC, consistantly scores 285 to 295 out of 300 on our course of fire. We just transitioned to an M&P .45, from a Sig P228. He shot a 288, a very good score. He told me he was really trying to shoot a perfect 300. I told him that was his problem, he was trying too hard. It either happens or it doesn't. Perfect each step of the process (as much as possible) and you will reach your goal. Another part of his problem is that he treats his duty weapon like his race gun. Shooting a race gun all the time has impacted his ability to work the stock trigger on an M&P.

I've said it before: train in mutilple diciplines and with mulitple instructors, and apply what works for your circumstance.

The issue that a lot of beginner to intermediate (and some advanced) shooters have is that they started out not knowing anything. They may have gotten some training (good or bad) and have latched onto that training as gospel. I see this out of .mil and LEO personnel.

Live, learn, adapt.

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by USM0083

... The issue that a lot of beginner to intermediate (and some advanced) shooters is that they started out not knowing anything. They may have gotten some training (good or bad) and have latched onto that training as gospel. I see this out of .mil and LEO personnel.
...

Yup. I refer to this as the "walk on water" syndrome. The experience of learning to anything at all useful with a firearm is inherently exciting and engaging. People form "tribal allegiances" based upon that initial expereince. They're also personally and emotionally invested, as their sense of pride-in-accomplishment is sourced from that experience and that "tribe". From there on, any challenge to the associated methods, techniques and "tribal ritual" is to be shunned and ridiculed, as though it is an insult to the club, league, military branch or favored trainer/personality.

[JRV]

So after reading through this thread again. I will start by saying I could have been more CLEAR with my explanations of certain methodology & opinions.

I am overly passionate (to a fault at times) about the program I teach. When I look back over the way I articulated CFS methodology throughout this thread I could have been more clear. Also for allowing myself to get off topic, for letting it become about personalities/personal and not focusing on the training.

So I apologize for those things.