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Old 09-23-2016, 12:07 PM
Wykyd Wykyd is offline
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Default My Mistakes and issues with a 2011 and/or 1911 80% build

Hello CG'ers

Disclaimer....Very long winded. Sit Down and get some popcorn!

First off I am not a gunsmith in any regard. I have no training as one nor should you try anything I have done.
Secondly, this post is just for informative purposes only showcasing my struggles in order to help other people thinking about doing a similar project. That said I do welcome any criticism or advice.

I just wanted to share my experience so far trying to complete and 80% build. Like a lot of others here I am frustrated with CA laws and the restrictions they place on law abiding citizens. I have been shooting in non competitive USPSA matches for a little while now and wanted to step up in my hardware and possibly to compete here and there. I cant buy an STI except for a used one and that doesn't exactly meet the needs of what I am wanting. Plus they are somewhat over priced due to demand(I thought). So I decided to build one. I looked into the tools needed, browsed many forums and watched hours upon hours of videos on the tube(Mosin Virus was by far most helpful). I have done numerous AR builds and I have even converted my CZ sp01 over to basically a shadow with CGW parts. I am a tinkerer at heart and a 1911 fan(own 5). I have a basic understanding of the internals....ok I thought piece of cake! Well that STI isn't looking so bad now! LOL

That said, my build isn't going as planned so far. I expected problems just not this many. I knew I was going to have to hand fit a lot of the parts but I didn't expect that every part needed a great deal of attention. I suppose my biggest issue is I do not have enough experience as a hobby "gun smith"(term used loosely) and my research was not nearly extensive enough. Also, I never imagined the amount of time each piece takes to fit. This is by far the most complex firearm project I have taken on. I cannot even say how many hours I have invested so far and I am not even close to being done! If you are thinking about completing an 80% and in the same boat as me please think long and hard before you take the plunge. I did think long and hard, this was not an impulse decision. I bought the Matrix Jig when it first came out probably 2 years ago and I got the 80% a few months later. 4 weeks ago I finally decided it was time and I ordered all the parts. I am 2 weeks into the build now....

Parts;
2011 80% frame
Fusion 6" 40 cal Slide
KKM Barrel
Parts from Dawson Precision (Mix of EGM, Ed Brown and Wilson)

Tools;
Matrix jig 1st gen not the carbide one they have now but an older style that you have to use a mill/drill press and cutting wheel.
Calipers
brownels lug cutter
brownels barrel alignment tool
40 cal reamer
Ed Brown Sear Jig
Misc Files and stones

Where I am at....

I practiced cutting the rails and holes on a blem frame. Made some mistakes and was able to correct them and cut decent rails on my good frame. Slide to frame fit was so tight that I spent countless hours over a few days with lapping compound and a sledge hammer then hammer then rubber mallet. After that I spent half a day working on it by hand. Now the slide and frame fit is good! Success!

Next I moved to fitting the grip and it was just that FITTING. Nothing lined up and I had to file the metal inserts best I could and eventually open the holes up just a touch. I do not have a magazine yet to test but my fingers are crossed and I just hope I dont have FTF issues.

Next I fit the Barrel hood to the slide. Took my time and measured everything like Mosin and I think it came out good but again spent countless hours on just the hood. I will stop mentioning the time it takes here you get the idea!

Next I moved to the Barrel bushing(Should have bought the tool/holder). My fingers ached after and by the end of fitting I got tired and careless. the bushing fits the slide snugly but the barrel is a hair loose. Not at all bad and this fit is to be expected on lower to mid 1911's bad not a fit I am proud of and I will ultimately do it again.

Next I tackled the internals for the frame. First the disconnector didn't work/fit, then the ejector was much to wide and tall. I finally got the disconnector working but in the process of filing the ejector down and installing it to check clearances the front stud snapped off. Part on order!

Then....heaven forbid...the thumb safety. I have fit one before but I had the old one as a guide. I did take apart 2 of my 1911's to look at the safety on them and so I went to work and ya....another part on order. I got one on amazon prime because I didn't want to wait. There is still a lot to do on the internals so I went back to work. Keep in mind the first was an Ed Brown and this was a Wilson. Holly crap why are they so different! The only thing the same was the basic shape. My biggest issue was that on the Wilson the pin that holds the beaver tail is oversized...WTF! how do I sand that perfectly down? I did my best got it to fit and got a good sear fit and ultimately a safe gun! Also I da to modify the slide notch so the safety could be moved up into position. Overall the thumb safety was done and a success so i thought!

Next I fit the beaver-tail. I do not know why but when its cocked it is sticking and clicking and I have no idea whats going on. Copious amounts of dykem blue and time fiddling and filing with spots that may be rubbing didn't help. Why does it move freely when its not cocked? What is touching rubbing when its cocked? It was only when I put the old safety in by mistake and it worked fine that the very dim light bulb went off. I DIDN'T SAND THE OTHER PIN PERFECTLY STRAIGHT. That small .01 or .001 mistake threw it all off. I am still not 100% sure why but they work now and I do have a "safe" firearm. 2 more parts ordered!

Fitting the internals on the slide wasn't bad just a lot of time and sanding on the firing pin stop.

Now that the internals were working I moved on to finishing the barrel. I have never fit a barrel so watched many more vids and tried to take my time. Started with the locking lugs and again copious amounts of dykem and measuring and I think i have a decent lockup. Now the lower lug. First the ramp and seat didn't match up it was too short. I trimmed out the concave portion of the frame to allow the Clark Para ramp feature to fit flush. Now I looked at the lower lug and noticed it extended into the path of the slide stop. I couldn't figure out or find any information on this so I decided to mark and file that part off then continue with the lug cutter once it fit. I did that and it came out terribly bad. Now when I install the slide stop the barrel doesn't seat properly and wants to actually extend too far it seems. This is where I stopped as I need time to reflect and research.

I still have a lot to do.

I cannot stress how much time is spent in the "details". Every part takes hours to fit. There has been nothing plug and play so far on my build. I have learned a lot of valuable lessons that have cost me a lot of extra money. I do enjoy working on this project as frustrating as it has been and I will most definitely build another. All the while, I keep catching myself thinking why....WHY didn't I just buy a used 2011???

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...v/IMG_1860.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...v/IMG_1861.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...v/IMG_1862.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...v/IMG_1864.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...v/IMG_1866.jpg
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Last edited by Wykyd; 09-23-2016 at 7:33 PM.. Reason: Added Pics
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Old 09-23-2016, 12:08 PM
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Old 09-23-2016, 12:19 PM
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Which 2011 frame are you using?
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Old 09-23-2016, 12:34 PM
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The frame is from ez80percent.
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Old 09-23-2016, 12:45 PM
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Have not done one of those but I do know there is often some trimming/fitting of the frame in the hammer/sear/disconnector area. I went with the Limited 10 because they are solid guys who know thier product.

I am often in the SF Bay area and can may be able help you if you want.

Cheers
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Old 09-23-2016, 1:22 PM
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The fact that you had to "fit" everything means you're on the right track! Don't give up, hang in there! You did not cheap out and got good parts from reputable vendors (with the exception of the frame which I know nothing about other than seeing them on Gunbrokers.com), so the tolerance will be tight but end result is worth it if you put in the work. Like dwalker, I got the 2011 frames from Limited 10 and as far as I can see from mocking up my build, everything is tight but everything lines up and behaves correctly when a little fitting is done, so getting a known good part is very important and can save a lot of headache! The frame is the foundation and it needs to be solid in terms of specs. A lot of ez80percent's stuff, including their drilling jig looks like copies of Limited 10, so some of the measurements may be off.

The one thing I would suggest for all new 80% 1911 builders is, when you feel your mind wandering from frustration, exhaustion, etc., move away from the work piece immediately. I don't know how many mistakes I've made when I didn't do this myself and wanted to "finish" something. There's no "clock" to race against; this is a hobby you're looking to enjoy, so enjoy!

Oh and if you're doing this to save money, you're in the wrong hobby (can be said with any hobby). Building kits from 1911builders and the like may look attractive and offer instant gratification, but you might not find gratification in the end result... Some people are perfectly satisfied with results from kits, but in my opinion, you shouldn't be...
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Old 09-23-2016, 3:23 PM
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I've been wanting to do one of these good info thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Old 09-23-2016, 4:02 PM
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Following!

As per our PMs, I'd be happy to help out too where I can.

Don't know EZ80percent - what's your impression of their frames? Are you working on a steel or aluminum frame?

Pics too if you can!
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Old 09-23-2016, 5:04 PM
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The knowledge and Comradery here is amazing! Thank you to both of you that offered to let me bounce ideas off you.

I am working with a steel frame but the blem i practiced on was aluminum. At first I really liked the frame and thought it was very nice. This of course coming purely from aesthetics since this is my first build.

I will post a few pics up when I get a chance.
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Old 09-23-2016, 5:20 PM
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I don't know how many hours I have put into fitting my 1911.

If I had to guesstamate.. between 6 and 8. Of course that's taking my time and still have to strip and sand it one last time to Duracoat it.
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Old 09-23-2016, 5:28 PM
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I have at least 100 hours in building and fitting, testing and refining, and tuning my 2011. But it runs flawlessly and I have shot match after match without an issue with my pistol.
That said, now that it is reliable it is finally time to work the trigger, so more hours spent...
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Old 09-23-2016, 7:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamonSJC View Post
I don't know how many hours I have put into fitting my 1911.

If I had to guesstamate.. between 6 and 8. Of course that's taking my time and still have to strip and sand it one last time to Duracoat it.
I have to admit I am a little ashamed but not counting researching and watching vids I have easily 25+ hours in this build so far. I know that is probably laughable but it hasn't come easy for me.
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Old 09-23-2016, 9:15 PM
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I stop counting the hours long ago... To finish one within 8 hours would be fantastic, but I probably wouldn't be satisfied with the result; I'm too anal for that. Even the most well known 1911 gunsmiths spend more than 25 hours building their masterpieces, and they've got decades of experience and a room full of precision machinery at their disposal and they do this for a living.

Don't worry about the hours. Just keep chugging along, and if you run into trouble, post here and there are plenty of us who has been there and may be able to help.

Good luck!
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Old 09-25-2016, 5:07 PM
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Starting with known good parts certainly does go a loonng ways. We made it much easier to install a steel grip a few months ago. They pretty much press on with little work.

We take alot of pride in making sure builders get great results by providing optimal dimensions, and MANY top-tier racegun builders are using our frames these days.

See this vid for a grip going on a frame with no work done, and holes lining up:
https://www.facebook.com/LimitedTen/...7288106684965/



Keep up the good work! Take your time, think your way through, and don't be afraid to try new techniques.
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Old 09-26-2016, 8:02 AM
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L-10, whose metal grip did you demonstrate with there? Is that the CK Arms' grip? I would love to put a metal grip on mine but boy do they cost a nice chunk of change...

Sorry for the detour OP...
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Old 09-26-2016, 8:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wykyd View Post
My biggest issue was that on the Wilson the pin that holds the beaver tail is oversized...WTF! how do I sand that perfectly down? I did my best got it to fit and got a good sear fit and ultimately a safe gun! Also I da to modify the slide notch so the safety could be moved up into position. Overall the thumb safety was done and a success so i thought!

Next I fit the beaver-tail. I do not know why but when its cocked it is sticking and clicking and I have no idea whats going on. Copious amounts of dykem blue and time fiddling and filing with spots that may be rubbing didn't help. Why does it move freely when its not cocked? What is touching rubbing when its cocked? It was only when I put the old safety in by mistake and it worked fine that the very dim light bulb went off. I DIDN'T SAND THE OTHER PIN PERFECTLY STRAIGHT. That small .01 or .001 mistake threw it all off. I am still not 100% sure why but they work now and I do have a "safe" firearm. 2 more parts ordered!
When a round feature does not fit in a hole, the best method is to ream the hole larger, NOT try and reduce the diameter of the round feature.

The only way you can make round parts smaller reliably/consistently is in a lathe or OD grinder.
It is MUCH easier to run a properly sized reamer through the frame hole or safety hole to get the parts to fit properly.

It's pretty common for the first 1911 build to be a disaster for non machinist builders.
The money saving trick is to build your first one with less expensive parts since you will trash so many of them.
Then, after you figure out how it works, buy the more expensive parts for your "nice" build.
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Old 09-26-2016, 8:26 AM
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Quote:
You destroyed that barrel with the lug cutter.
You are only supposed to use the lug cutter while the barrel is in the LOCKED position.
It looks like you ran the lug cutter into the barrel while it was unlocked.
The profile of the lower lug is setup as such that it allows the slide stop to follow closely against the lug via the link.
From the looks of your photo, you did NOT cut the frame to the correct length for the barrel.

Read the shuemann frame cutting instructions for how to measure the length of the cut from the slide stop pin:
http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/D...n%20manual.pdf

Looks like you will need to do the frame cut properly and then get a new barrel and start over.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 09-26-2016 at 8:28 AM..
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Old 09-26-2016, 9:10 AM
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I like that slide though...
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Old 09-26-2016, 9:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pklin1297 View Post
L-10, whose metal grip did you demonstrate with there? Is that the CK Arms' grip? I would love to put a metal grip on mine but boy do they cost a nice chunk of change...

Sorry for the detour OP...
SVI, though PT grips fit the same way.
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Old 09-26-2016, 5:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limited-Ten View Post
SVI, though PT grips fit the same way.
On week 4 of waiting for your lead time, I know they are made to order but man oh man I wish I had the frame here to work on it
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Old 09-26-2016, 6:08 PM
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is there a preferred jig for these receivers, i don't have access to a mill. also, which beavertail grip safeties seem to work best with these receivers thanks
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Old 09-27-2016, 3:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
When a round feature does not fit in a hole, the best method is to ream the hole larger, NOT try and reduce the diameter of the round feature.

The only way you can make round parts smaller reliably/consistently is in a lathe or OD grinder.
It is MUCH easier to run a properly sized reamer through the frame hole or safety hole to get the parts to fit properly.

It's pretty common for the first 1911 build to be a disaster for non machinist builders.
The money saving trick is to build your first one with less expensive parts since you will trash so many of them.
Then, after you figure out how it works, buy the more expensive parts for your "nice" build.
Ya I thought about making the hole a little bigger but everything I could find on it led me to believe not to modify the frame if you can help it. Fit the part to the frame not the frame to the part kind of deal. It would have been much easier for sure!

I thought about using cheaper parts too but in the end I would not have been happy and wished i just bought decent stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
You destroyed that barrel with the lug cutter.
You are only supposed to use the lug cutter while the barrel is in the LOCKED position.
It looks like you ran the lug cutter into the barrel while it was unlocked.
The profile of the lower lug is setup as such that it allows the slide stop to follow closely against the lug via the link.
From the looks of your photo, you did NOT cut the frame to the correct length for the barrel.

Read the shuemann frame cutting instructions for how to measure the length of the cut from the slide stop pin:
http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/D...n%20manual.pdf

Looks like you will need to do the frame cut properly and then get a new barrel and start over.
Yes I have been to the Schuemann site many times but i may have missed some things i will look at the link you gave. I did cut the lugs in the locked position and I believe I need to cut more with the bigger cutter. If I didnt give any relief on the forward portion How would the barrel ever go into lockup? As of right now Lockup is very tight and will not unlock as hard as i can push down on the barrel. I cannot put the thumb safety on either. When I used the .187 lug cutter the slide and frame are flush but when I put the slide stop pin in the slide is pushed back about an eighth inch. I will try to take pictures tomorrow I have been busy at work the last couple days and not able to work on this project.

Thanks for the advice and help Randall.
Cheers
Matt
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Old 09-27-2016, 8:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wykyd View Post
If I didnt give any relief on the forward portion How would the barrel ever go into lockup?

I did cut the lugs in the locked position and I believe I need to cut more with the bigger cutter. As of right now Lockup is very tight and will not unlock as hard as i can push down on the barrel. I cannot put the thumb safety on either. When I used the .187 lug cutter the slide and frame are flush but when I put the slide stop pin in the slide is pushed back about an eighth inch.
You have two different things going on here.

The reason you cut the front of the barrel lug is that you do NOT have the barrel sitting in the correct spot in the frame.
That is why the barrel would not BEGIN to move upwards until you hacked into the barrel to make room for the slide stop pin.
Fix that FIRST before you worry about lockup.
The schuemann instructions give you the actual DIMENSION from the slide stop pin that the vertical impact surface needs to measure for the barrel to be sitting in the correct position.
Due to what you had to do the the barrel to get the barrel to fit, I can just about guarantee that your timing is all jacked up and that the gun is going to destroy itself in short order if you actually start shooting it.

You are correct that you need to cut the bottom of the lower lugs more to get the slide to close completely.
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Old 09-27-2016, 8:33 AM
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i am following this closely as i too am building a 1911. so far i have made the same mistake as the OP on the barrel fitting. i did not know about the modification on the frame prior to this thread. thanks for all the info.
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Old 09-27-2016, 9:04 AM
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i am following this closely as i too am building a 1911. so far i have made the same mistake as the OP on the barrel fitting. i did not know about the modification on the frame prior to this thread. thanks for all the info.
Unramped barrels should not require frame modification unless the frame is simply out of spec.
Ramped barrels require cutting the frame to clear the ramp so that the barrel interacts with the vertical impact surface correctly.
There are different types of ramps and therefore different types of frame cuts.
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Old 09-27-2016, 9:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Unramped barrels should not require frame modification unless the frame is simply out of spec.
Ramped barrels require cutting the frame to clear the ramp so that the barrel interacts with the vertical impact surface correctly.
There are different types of ramps and therefore different types of frame cuts.
my frame came with a P/C ramp cut already. i just measured it and it was 0.58 from the SS to the VIS. Would 0.02 really make that big of a difference?
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Old 09-27-2016, 11:18 AM
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What frame are you using? I ask because I am discovering some stuff on the railed 1911 builders frame. That is the series 80 frame with a clark /para barrel cut
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Old 09-27-2016, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MosinVirus View Post
What frame are you using? I ask because I am discovering some stuff on the railed 1911 builders frame. That is the series 80 frame with a clark /para barrel cut
im using a Vytamenc railed 1911 frame. its a series 80 also.
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Old 09-27-2016, 12:13 PM
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I believe they are the same frames.

I fit the barrel to the slide for proper upper lug engagement of .045
When fitting the bottom lug to the frame, I cut the bottom lug with the barrel fully locked up, and then started working on the front ramp of the bottom lug.

Had to remove a bunch of material to make sure that when the barrel was seated in the frame and all the way back against the Vertical Impact Surface, that the front of the bottom lug wasn't visible through the slide stop pin hole in the frame.

I knew early enough that the edge between the Vertical Impact Surface and the ramp slot in the frame was too sharp, so I chamfered it a bit.

But the bottom lug, even if I left the same amount of material around the radius of the front of it as suggested by the slide stop hole in the link, was still showing through the slide stop pin hole when the barrel was seated and pushed all the way to the rear in the frame.

So I decided to check if the rear of the bottom lug was actually touching the vertical impact surface. I put the barrel into the frame, held it tightly against the barrel seat and tapped it on the muzzle a couple of times using a soft rubber mallet. Basically sending it back. (this was supposed to be done first, before I started looking at the front ramp of the bottom lug)

Noticed that the barrel got tight in the frame, almost stuck. Took it out and noticed a couple of shiny spots (you can see one side's spot in the picture above where the VIS radius starts). Same shiny spots on the bottom lug of the barrel.



So I had to extend the radius of the rear of the bottom lug a bit forward to account for that mismatch.



So now the front of the bottom lug looks weird, and I still need to get a #5 link. #4 is too short for this barrel (again, I got the upper lug engagement at .045" before cutting the bottom lug).

Edit: this is a commander barrel, so the front of the bottom lug is short on purpose. I am specifically talking about the radius of the front ramp being weird.

Oh and the ss pin to VIS on my frame is .586. Perhaps, Randall can help me move it back more (since I will be using a #5 link and the barrel could need to go back a little more)
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Last edited by MosinVirus; 09-27-2016 at 12:29 PM..
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Old 09-27-2016, 12:35 PM
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wow! thanks for the info. i will surely do this when my new barrel comes in.
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Old 09-28-2016, 2:24 PM
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OK I am an idiot!

I read over the instructions on the schuemann site again and I still wasn't sure how I screwed up. So I printed them and researched some more. It wasn't until I watched MV's video again and missed a small fact... the distance had to be .6000 from the back of the pin to the VIS. I must have been missing "resultant" distance on the scheumann site. I have now fixed this issue and my distance is .5990

Now to start on the next set of issues and see if I need to order a new barrel.
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Old 09-28-2016, 4:05 PM
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I understand that I screwed up when i hacked into the barrel lower lugs do to the frame relief not being set correctly. But I think that I may still be ok. I never cut the lower lugs to full depth. When I test the frame and slide now it locks and unlocks just "gritty". I put dykem on the "feet"/lower lugs to see where the engagement was and its just before lockup. I tried to cut the luggs with the brownells cutter .187 and the engagement is still just a bit early. I think that with the .196 cutter I will get lockup and full lower lug engagement. Thus the link will not bare the load on lockup and the barrel may be salvageable.

I should also mention that my locking lug engagement is a bit high at .063(I know that I went a bit much trimming and with a high pressure caliber that is not good....strike 2 on the barrel fitting but i will be running minor reloads so less pressure). This is why i need the bigger cutter and I think maybe it will still be OK.

So I guess my question is can this barrel be saved? I will add picks if I can get some decent ones with dykem.
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Old 09-30-2016, 6:29 PM
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So I was able to get my hands on a limited 10 paperweight. Yes, I would have to say that they are overall much better quality and the tolerances seem much better. I would recommend buying a limited 10 80% frame over the ez80percent if you want a much easier build or if you are new to 2011 builds. I am going to build this limited 10 next(who knows how long to fund though LOL) but I prefer railed firearms. To me the ez80percent railed frame looks better than the limited 10 railed frame and for the price I would go with it since I know what to fix and expect now.

If you buy an ez80percent a few of the big things to watch for are;
1. Most holes need to be cleaned or reamed (Both LT 10 and ez80percent)
2. Disconector hole needs to be reamed and shortened (My disconnector would catch and not function)
3. The thumb safety hole is not machined inside as nice as a LT 10. Thus, it is thicker than LT 10 so I had to open the gap on the Thumb safety
4. Actual frame tag end where grip installs is short .25 inch and does not line up (You can see on mine there is a gap that I cannot do anything about I tried!). I put my grip on a LT 10 and it is perfect. I put frames side by side and you can see the difference.
5. This biggest issue is the frame barrel relief cut. I had to cut out .250 of material for my C/P barrel to fit correctly(The LT 10 is perfect and does not need any tooling). I should have done my due diligence but in the end this cost me the price of the barrel and labor that went into it.

That said my build is nearing the end. It is fully functioning as it should be at this point with exception to the barrel. It doesn't look like I can save this barrel. I am trying to figure out if I can test fire without damage to the frame but I may have to try and visit a local smith to tell me for sure.

Next is Sand then Cerakote and install the sights.
I am going to fit an ambi thumb safety in future projects since it should give better aesthetics I feel.

I wish there was something I could do about the Slide scallop cup. Some way to make it look better other than chopping the frame off. Ugghhh!









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Old 09-30-2016, 6:51 PM
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Trim the frame back or get a Unique slide..

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Old 09-30-2016, 7:03 PM
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Ya I already have the one saved I am going to get next. I just didn't think about it the first time and now I am wishing I did.
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