Firearms in Forests and Parks

[sl0re10]

"*1 - UOC of handguns is not legal in NPs effective 1/1/12 as a result of AB144 (PC 26350)"

So does this mean handguns are just not ok period in NPs?

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by ExcuseMe

Welp, I just bought a nice thigh holster for my 1911. After reading this thread, I have no idea if I can UOC in Desolation Wilderness or not. I wrote a letter to Gov Brown, so I'm sure he'll get back to me in a timely manner and set things straight. As soon as he does, I'll let you guys know.

They must post closures. I see none in either the EDNF page nor the Desolation Wilderness page, so you can UOC, and also LOC in non-prohibited areas (most of the wilderness). You may want to call the local ranger station and ask if there are any shooting restrictions posted for the Wilderness. If there are, that would trigger a prohibited area. Of course you can LOC and LCC in your campsite regardless.

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by sl0re10

"*1 - UOC of handguns is not legal in NPs effective 1/1/12 as a result of AB144 (PC 26350)"

So does this mean handguns are just not ok period in NPs?

No. With a CCW permit you are good to LCC (except in federal facilities). Otherwise you need to keep it cased when transporting, like most of California. And you may LCC or LOC in your campsite.

[Jungleboxx]

Originally Posted by MudCamper

No. With a CCW permit you are good to LCC (except in federal facilities). Otherwise you need to keep it cased when transporting, like most of California. And you may LCC or LOC in your campsite.

If I understand this thread correctly, if I am going on a 5 day backpacking trip in a NP I may LOC in my campsite, but not while travelling. While travelling I must LUC? As in locked, unloaded, and cased?


But if I am in NF it is okay to LOC so long as I am not in a vehicle?

I really appreciate all you put into this thread and have read it, just want to make sure I don't miss a detail and go bye bye.

So many different laws it's insane!!

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by Jungleboxx

If I understand this thread correctly, if I am going on a 5 day backpacking trip in a NP I may LOC in my campsite, but not while travelling. While travelling I must LUC? As in locked, unloaded, and cased?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Jungleboxx

But if I am in NF it is okay to LOC so long as I am not in a vehicle?

It's not about vehicles. You can't LOC while in a prohibited area. Roads are prohibited areas. In a vehicle or on foot you can't LOC on a road.

[lakersandguns]

Ok going to Mammoth, what's the deal? Do i need to carry or can i carry. Never been their.

[ExcuseMe]

Originally Posted by lakersandguns

Ok going to Mammoth, what's the deal? Do i need to carry or can i carry. Never been their.

What are you doing in Mammoth? You're need is determined by you. But when I'm in Mammoth, I've never felt the need to carry.

[lakersandguns]

Brother in law rented a cabin. Going for the weekend. Like i said, I never been their. Been to yosemity. At yosemity had an encounter with coyote. Came to close to us.

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by ExcuseMe

What are you doing in Mammoth? You're need is determined by you. But when I'm in Mammoth, I've never felt the need to carry.

Some of us choose to carry whenever legally possible. If not for the county that I reside in, I'd carry always.

Originally Posted by lakersandguns

Brother in law rented a cabin. Going for the weekend. Like i said, I never been their. Been to yosemity. At yosemity had an encounter with coyote. Came to close to us.

A coyote isn't going to hurt you. It's the 2-legged predators you need to look out for.

[onewheelwes]

Originally Posted by lakersandguns

Brother in law rented a cabin. Going for the weekend. Like i said, I never been their. Been to yosemity. At yosemity had an encounter with coyote. Came to close to us.

Mammoth is kind of funny, populated by a bunch of ex LA Libs. I was there for work for a few months and found exactly one store that sells ammo. It was out of sight behind the counter in a closed cabinet. Most of the area is posted no shooting, but I did find a really nice spot slightly east of mammoth where there is a unregulated range. I could probably find it on google earth if you are interested.

[ExcuseMe]

Originally Posted by MudCamper

Some of us choose to carry whenever legally possible. If not for the county that I reside in, I'd carry always.



A coyote isn't going to hurt you. It's the 2-legged predators you need to look out for.

I'm not saying one way or another, I'm just saying it is up to him to determine his need. All the same, if it were legal, I'd do the same.

[Florida]

I drive a pick up. Can someone tell me whether i'm legal or not with ammo in the back and guns in the cab (with no gun locks in them)? I'd appreciate it!

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by Florida

I drive a pick up. Can someone tell me whether i'm legal or not with ammo in the back and guns in the cab (with no gun locks in them)? I'd appreciate it!

Ammo can be in the cab with the guns.

Handguns generally need to be in a fully enclosed locked case.

Long guns don't need to be cased. However, if you worry about the federal gun free school zones, then you need a lock of some kind. And next year, you will need a case (not locked) to transport your long guns outside of your vehicle when in cities.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/De..._in_California

[navin r]

Thanks very mcuh for all your effort on this MudCamper; though it still is confusing.
If I may ask a question based on one of your earlier posts; in most remote areas a person would be OK transporting an unloaded rifle in the back of an SUV, and if asked by a LEO it might be helpful to have a valid Kali hunting permit on you? If asked what you're hunting say coyotes?
I understand this is just general advice; any reply is most appreciated.

[daybreak]

Does anyone have any experience LOC'ing in the Angeles Nat Forest, particularly in the Azusa and Arcadia parts? Any run ins with the rangers, and are they knowledgable in the LOC laws?

From what I've read in this thread, I can LOC unless it's posted otherwise correct? As far as my campsite, am I OK to LOC from my camp site to the bathroom at the campsite ?

[Shasta Frog]

Just keep it concealed and no one will know. The only time someone should find out is if you are in a life or death situation. And in that case you have a lot more to worry about than if you are carrying legally.

[daybreak]

worthwhile advice. I ask because I only have OWB holsters.

[hardlyworking]

FYI - This may be common knowledge but it wasn't to me:

I went up to the National Park HQ in Thousand Oaks (for the Santa Monica Mountains NP) and found a ranger (with sidearm) walking in to the front office.

I mentioned that I wanted to target shoot in the park and ask if that was cool and where was the best spot.

His answer: National PARK and National FOREST are entirely different beasts governed by different laws. No shooting in the PARK. If I want clarification on where to shoot in the FOREST, go find a forest service person, as that's not his domain.

Then he suggested buying some land outside the city and go do whatever the hell I want

[steelheadmike]

I hope this is the right place to post this.

So, I'm a little new to this whole thing but pretty good at wading through legal mumbo jumbo and I'm trying sort it out. I am pulling all this from the PC sections relating to CW and the new-ish OC section. Also, I am going through this in a general sense, not with a focus on Nat Forest/Parks and not in one's campsite

Please correct me if I'm wrong here. How's this look?

Hunting
-In non-prohibited areas (i.e, where I can fire my deer rifle; I am familiar with this idea as I am a hunter) = LCC, UCC, LOC, UOC, LUCC

-In prohibited areas = UCC, UOC, LUCC

Traveling to/from hunting (not in K-12 zone), regardless of mode or distance between = UCC, UOC, LUCC

Fishing
-In non-prohibited areas = LCC, UCC, LOC, UOC, LUCC

-In prohibited areas = UCC, LUCC

Traveling to/from fishing (not in K-12 zone), regardless of mode or distance between = UCC, LUCC

Hiking
-In non-prohibited areas= LOC, UOC, LUCC

-In prohibited areas= LUCC

What if travel to/or from my hunting expedition is multi-day?

Thanks,
Mike

[tima]

Ive got a quick question regarding Unloaded Concealed Carry. I guess this is probably pushing the grey area but want some clarification.

Lets say I am hiking with a handgun in my pack (unloaded). Now I understand this would be illegal as it was not UOC. What if I was "scouting" fishing/hunting locations but not actually doing the act of fishing or hunting? Would this be considered an "expedition" which would make UCC legal?

[GrizzlyGuy]

Originally Posted by tima

Lets say I am hiking with a handgun in my pack (unloaded). Now I understand this would be illegal as it was not UOC. What if I was "scouting" fishing/hunting locations but not actually doing the act of fishing or hunting? Would this be considered an "expedition" which would make UCC legal?

The exemption:

25640. Section 25400 does not apply to, or affect, licensed hunters
or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable
of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or
fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or
returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.

I'd say that a "hunting or fishing expedition" is one in which the person intends to actually hunt or fish, and not just scout. On the way to and from the spot where you intend to actually hunt or fish, carrying it unloaded and unlocked in your pack would be legal. Carrying it that way on an expedition that is purely for scouting purposes... wouldn't be.

[thomashoward]

Originally Posted by GrizzlyGuy

The exemption:


I'd say that a "hunting or fishing expedition" is one in which the person intends to actually hunt or fish, and not just scout. On the way to and from the spot where you intend to actually hunt or fish, carrying it unloaded and unlocked in your pack would be legal. Carrying it that way on an expedition that is purely for scouting purposes... wouldn't be.

Anytime I'm in the woods with a gun, I'm hunting.

[Southwest Chuck]

Originally Posted by thomashoward

Anytime I'm in the woods with a gun, I'm hunting.

Yup. Coyote and Jack Rabbit season is year round .....

[Countrymile]

Thank you for all the great info. It looks as if Jan 1 open carry unloaded is out unless you are exempted.

So... I am going camping a bit off the beaten bath on NPS land around the Sequoias. I have a fishing lic. and will have a fly rod. It seems that while hiking to campsite I can unloaded, unlic. CC. Which (after reading above) would seem to mean I am ok with a shoulder rig as long as mag is under my other armpit. After reaching campsite I may continue to carry unloaded in the same fashion as I am hiking to the stream, in the act of fishing, and returning to my campsite. However, discharge is prohibited regardless of the situation... so if a mountain lion comes after me--or a wack-a-doo human--I may not be in violation of possession, but of unlawful discharge and whatever else the situation warrents (ie bear w/o tag out of season etc).

Am I summing up/interpreting the above correctly?

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by Countrymile

Thank you for all the great info. It looks as if Jan 1 open carry unloaded is out unless you are exempted.

So... I am going camping a bit off the beaten bath on NPS land around the Sequoias. I have a fishing lic. and will have a fly rod. It seems that while hiking to campsite I can unloaded, unlic. CC. Which (after reading above) would seem to mean I am ok with a shoulder rig as long as mag is under my other armpit. After reaching campsite I may continue to carry unloaded in the same fashion as I am hiking to the stream, in the act of fishing, and returning to my campsite. However, discharge is prohibited regardless of the situation... so if a mountain lion comes after me--or a wack-a-doo human--I may not be in violation of possession, but of unlawful discharge and whatever else the situation warrents (ie bear w/o tag out of season etc).

Am I summing up/interpreting the above correctly?

Interesting. I hadn't thought of this scenario before. Yes.

Since it's legal to fish in the NP, this lets you use the 25640 exception and legally UCC in the NP while traveling to/from your fishing expedition. While in your campsite, you can legally LCC via 25605 & 26055. And while fishing, and hiking from/to camp from fishing you can UCC via 25640.

As for shooting the mountain lion or human violent criminal, you are OK there if you felt you or someone nearby was at risk of great bodily injury or death. And PC 26045 exempts you from 25850 (loaded) in this case. You would be in violation some NP infraction, but so what when life is on the line.

[Shasta Frog]

That is just too much b.s. to even worry about. You are legal doing "this" not legal doing "that"... Only if you are at your campsite bla bla bla. What a joke. Glad I don't worry about that crap.

[Sehoner]

Geez, and all I wanted to know was if it was legal to run around in the woods with a firearm strapped to my leg.

Thanks MC, for all the work.

[moosicmang]

Originally Posted by thomashoward

Anytime I'm in the woods with a gun, I'm hunting.

'Sir i was hunting, but the deer just didn't feel like jumping in front of my scope'

Sounds like as long as you have a gun in the woods, its probably best to carry a hunting license

[MasterYong]

Quick question here:

It doesn't look like MudCamper is online otherwise I'd just PM. In lieu of that, can anyone tell me if the information in Post #1 is still 100% accurate as of today?

I'm leaving to go camping tomorrow in Shasta-Trinity National Forest. In the past I've always LOC when I'm there, from the moment I'm out of my vehicle (which is parked in a campsite) to when I go to bed, then it's back on my hip the next day (handgun). All river access and hiking from my spot doesn't require that I cross any roads to get there and I'm on National Forest land the entire time. I don't typically discharge while I'm there, I carry for protection from some of the hill people/crazies we get out there, not so I can plink whenever I want.

There have never been restrictions posted at the campground before (very remote campground, but it still has signage), and I'll be sure to look this time.

Knowing all these details (I think I've included everything) I'm still good to go when it comes to LOC in National Forest / Unincorporated areas, yes? AB144 and any legislation since hasn't killed that yet?

Sorry for what may seem like a nooby question. I've been away for too long, and a LOT seems to have happened since I stopped lurking and/or posting regularly.

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by MasterYong

In lieu of that, can anyone tell me if the information in Post #1 is still 100% accurate as of today?

Answering way too late, but yes, I keep the first two posts up-to-date.

[DirtTime]

I'm new here, but I've been carrying LOC in NP & NF for years, apparently illegally some of the time. I intend to remedy that.

It seems a lot of people are hung up on the hunting, and while that is one way to get the exemption, I think fishing is a far easier route to get around the law for those who are using it just for the ability to carry. My reasons for this belief:

1. No hunters safety course required.
2. You can buy 1 day or 2 day fishing licences for $14 or $22 respectively, or a 1 year for $45.
3. You can build a "pocket fishing kit" for next to nothing, and keep it in your truck, your pack, or even in your actual pocket. All you technically need is a hook and some line to be fishing, a traditional pole is not required.
4. For all intents and purposes, 5 mins standing by a creek with a bare hook in the water IS fishing, there is no specified legal reason why that couldn't justify a 10 day "expedition".
5. Fishing allows you to UCC, which will mostly keep you off the radar of any LEO that you might bump into, and you only have to tell them you are carrying if you are specifically asked, after which you just let them know you are headed to the creek to do some more fishin'.

I see a lot less issues for someone who might be stopped to be on a fishing trip, as opposed to a hunting trip, but that's just my 2 cents. Does this make sense to anyone else?

One other thought I had while reading earlier, does the law specify that you have to be LEGALLY hunting or fishing to be exempt? If not, I'd take a hunting/fishing w/o a licence, or just about any other DFW citation way before I'd want a firearms violation that might end up a felony. Wouldn't you?

[DirtTime]

My first post was about finding a California approved way to exercise my Constitutionally protected right to bear arms. Next time I join a gun forum I'll be sure to post some pictures of shiny guns and other really important things before I stray into the frivolity of Liberty and Personal Freedom.

[Shasta Frog]

You do realize that if the gun is concealed no one will know. And if you need to use it then it would be a life or death situation and you will be glad you had it.

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by becciboo

Your first post is about getting around the law?

Our purpose in this thread is to figure out how to obey the laws (as unjust as they may be) while still carrying guns.

Using the fishing license exemption is not "getting around the law". It is making sure that you are within the law.

Originally Posted by DirtTime

I see a lot less issues for someone who might be stopped to be on a fishing trip, as opposed to a hunting trip, but that's just my 2 cents. Does this make sense to anyone else?

Well you need to have your fishing gear with you...

Originally Posted by DirtTime

One other thought I had while reading earlier, does the law specify that you have to be LEGALLY hunting or fishing to be exempt? If not, I'd take a hunting/fishing w/o a licence, or just about any other DFW citation way before I'd want a firearms violation that might end up a felony. Wouldn't you?

Hunting or fishing, or traveling to or from your hunting or fishing expedition, although it must be unloaded for the latter.

[MudCamper]

The term "campsite" is pretty important for this topic, and I've never found a legal definition for it, until now. Here are a couple:

From a US District Court case:

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/campsite/

Campsite is defined as "any place where any bedding, sleeping bag, or other sleeping matter, or any stove or fire is placed, established, or maintained, whether or not such place incorporates the use of any tent, lean-to, shack, or any other structure." Anderson v. City of Portland, 2009 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 67519 (D. Or. July 30, 2009)


And an Alaska National Park definition for "temporary campsite":

http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/temporary-campsite/

temporary campsite means “a natural, undeveloped area suitable for the purpose of overnight occupancy without modification.”

[Hunterfromthenorth]

California needs more laws.

[eatcow]

Hey MudCamper great info, super helpful.

My main question is as far as carrying a shotgun in National Parks in CA goes, wouldn't H.R.627 s 512 (b)(2) make it illegal to carry the gun in CA Nat' Parks at all because its illegal to carry it completely in state parks under State CCR Title 14, Div 3, Chap 1, s 4313.

I feel like I don't have this right based on what everyone else has said but wanted to make sure.

And given my above argument doesn't apply, could I UOC a shotgun in Yosemite (CA natl park) if I was hiking and not yet at my campsite? If not how would I do it, I am very confused, would I have to lock/conceal/unload it while hiking to my campsite and then once there could UOC it?

Thanks!

[Shasta Frog]

My question is why do some lose sleep over this crap? You can interpret the laws to death and still not have it right. Just do what you feel you need to do and keep calm and carry on.

[TacticalPlinker]

Originally Posted by Shasta Frog

My question is why do some lose sleep over this crap? You can interpret the laws to death and still not have it right. Just do what you feel you need to do and keep calm and carry on.

I think it's because the laws are so confusing, vague, cryptic and convoluted... It's difficult for lawyers, law enforcement and government officials (let alone civilians) to know what's legal and what's illegal.

Despite our opinion of the laws, most of us still want to comply to avoid arrest, heavy fines, firearm confiscation and/or jail time, to say the least (or at least I do).

[Shasta Frog]

Originally Posted by TacticalPlinker

I think it's because the laws are so confusing, vague, cryptic and convoluted... It's difficult for lawyers, law enforcement and government officials (let alone civilians) to know what's legal and what's illegal.

Despite our opinion of the laws, most of us still want to comply to avoid arrest, heavy fines, firearm confiscation and/or jail time, to say the least (or at least I do).

Don't get me wrong, I do my best to comply too but with all the gray areas regarding gun laws I just do my best to do what I think is right When I am carrying.

I have a ccw so maybe its easier for me to think that way but all these nitpicky laws are just mind boggling and there is more important things to worry about. In My Opinion.

Common sense to begin with will keep most of us out of trouble.