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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 10-09-2011, 10:35 AM
1911 TRP 1911 TRP is offline
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Default CCW revocation in Riverside County...

What are some reasons that a ccw holder will lose his/her priveledge to carry? Other than the obvious felony, mis. domestic violence, or DUI. Would a speeding ticket do it? Or a petty theft charge? Illegal U turn? Your input is appreciated.
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:41 AM
HighLander51 HighLander51 is offline
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Being involved in an incident without reporting it, brandishing, road rage, moving to a new address and not notifying, carrying a gun not listed on the permit, carrying in a bar, refusing to leave a property after being notified that weapons are not allowed. Traffic violations as you describe, no. Failure to yield to the police, yes. Petty theft sounds like a yes. Didn't the instructor go over all this in CCW class?
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:47 AM
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Not that I recall. He was very informative about most stuff. But grounds for losing your ccw were not discussed.
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Old 10-09-2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
Being involved in an incident without reporting it, brandishing, road rage, moving to a new address and not notifying, carrying a gun not listed on the permit, carrying in a bar, refusing to leave a property after being notified that weapons are not allowed. Traffic violations as you describe, no. Failure to yield to the police, yes. Petty theft sounds like a yes. Didn't the instructor go over all this in CCW class?
Instructors are FUD factories. Unless it's a statutory prohibition, or printed on the license, it's not a time/place/manner restriction. Revocations beyond these are likely unlawful, suspect at best and subject to challenge.

-Brandon
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  #5  
Old 10-09-2011, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 1911 TRP View Post
I have a friend who walked out of a target store with a product without paying. In addition to the cart he paid for. When he realized what he had done. He returned to the store to be pay for the $20 dollar product. The store had already contacted officers and he was cited for petty theft/shoplifting.
If this was true it would not walk far in court.
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  #6  
Old 10-09-2011, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Instructors are FUD factories. Unless it's a statutory prohibition, or printed on the license, it's not a time/place/manner restriction. Revocations beyond these are likely unlawful, suspect at best and subject to challenge.

-Brandon
I am not going to be the first one to find out..... The issuing authorities seem to be as fickle about revoking as they are about issuing. San Bernardino has been cracking down on address changes recently.
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Old 10-09-2011, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
I am not going to be the first one to find out..... The issuing authorities seem to be as fickle about revoking as they are about issuing. San Bernardino has been cracking down on address changes recently.
And we need to deal with those address-related revocations (if any), which is one reason the Initiative (and the LTC experience feedback form) exists. Revoking a license isn't as simple as some licensing authorities make you believe, and can implicate the law of takings (among others).

If the licensee is still a resident of the county, then there's no [legal] foul. Note that no penalty exists in the Code for failure to notify (the license does, however, expire at move+90 days for change of address outside the jurisdiction; carry after this date would be the same as carry without a license).

ETA: We're right back to the premise that instructors (and FFLs, and cops, and...) are [generally] FUD factories, and repeating un-citable assertions made by uninformed persons is in no way improving the community's knowledge.

-Brandon
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Old 10-09-2011, 6:06 PM
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All I know is that San Bernardino requires that you notify the business office within 10 days of changing residence.
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Old 10-09-2011, 6:43 PM
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Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
All I know is that San Bernardino requires that you notify the business office within 10 days of changing residence.
That comes from this PC:

12050(f)(4)(A):
Quote:
The licensee shall notify the licensing authority in
writing within 10 days of any change in the licensee's place of
residence.
Note, however, (B) and (C):

Quote:
(B) If the license is one to carry concealed a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, then it
may not be revoked solely because the licensee changes his or her
place of residence to another county if the licensee has not breached
any conditions or restrictions set forth in the license and has not
become prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving,
owning, or purchasing a firearm. However, any license issued
pursuant to subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) of subdivision
(a) shall expire 90 days after the licensee moves from the county of
issuance if the licensee's place of residence was the basis for
issuance of the license.
(C) If the license is one to carry loaded and exposed a pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person, the license shall be revoked immediately if the licensee
changes his or her place of residence to another county.
As I stated above, there is no statutory penalty for failing to notify. It's not in any way a best practice, but revocation on the basis of changing residence within the county is at least legally suspect.

-Brandon
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  #10  
Old 10-10-2011, 3:31 AM
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I can tell you (the old) SAC COUNTY would revoke in a heart beat! I know they did to my friend. Actually they took it and did not renew it. Claimed did not meet the requirements! Even though nothing changed! HOPEFULLY the NEW sac county is more lenient...
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Old 10-10-2011, 8:24 AM
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This is what I mean when I say the laws are vague. May issue is vague. It also means may not and it does not state clearly what an issuing agency may or may not issue or revoke for. Additionaly most agencies have their own criterion for issuing or not issuing and legal or not they enforce it.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:56 AM
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This is what I mean when I say the laws are vague. May issue is vague. It also means may not and it does not state clearly what an issuing agency may or may not issue or revoke for. Additionaly most agencies have their own criterion for issuing or not issuing and legal or not they enforce it.
May issue has nothing to do with it. Outside of clear authority vested in the Code and a violation reaching the threshold of being either (A) prohibiting, or (B) violating a printed TPM restriction, the licensing authority may not simply take away that which was approved and paid for; the discretion to revoke is not unlimited.

It's the "or not" part where we sue people (and agencies).

-Brandon
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  #13  
Old 10-11-2011, 9:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
May issue has nothing to do with it. Outside of clear authority vested in the Code and a violation reaching the threshold of being either (A) prohibiting, or (B) violating a printed TPM restriction, the licensing authority may not simply take away that which was approved and paid for; the discretion to revoke is not unlimited.

It's the "or not" part where we sue people (and agencies).

-Brandon
Brandon<
I dont think were at odds here. The problem is that the violations are too vague and open to the interpretation of the issueing agency. Example. My license may be revoked if I carry into a bar. What if, however I go into a restaraunt, that has a semi seperate bar section, such as Outback Steakhouse, and due to a lack of tables, Im seated in the bar section? Am I technically in violation even though I'm not drinking? Maybe. Might my issuing agency decide to make an example of me and revoke my CCW? It's a grey area and open to interpretation. The rules and criterion for both initial issuance and revokation need to be clearer and black and white.
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Old 10-26-2011, 5:58 AM
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FWIW and speaking specifically about Riverside County; I seriously doubt they would play "gotcha" games or are looking to revoke anyone's permit over something benign or frivolous. I have been over to Ben Clark a handful of times since I applied for my permit, and have always walked away with the distinct impression that the Sheriff and his CCW Staff are on our side.

I am sure you heard Sgt. Hoover say many times during the class that concealed means concealed, and that if you do it right, no one will ever know. So if you carry properly and conduct yourself in a safe and responsible manner, you should not have any worries.

I can tell you from first hand experience that a traffic citation will not land you in trouble with the CCW Unit. A string of them perhaps, but a single ticket will not.
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Old 10-26-2011, 8:27 AM
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FWIW and speaking specifically about Riverside County; I seriously doubt they would play "gotcha" games or are looking to revoke anyone's permit over something benign or frivolous. I have been over to Ben Clark a handful of times since I applied for my permit, and have always walked away with the distinct impression that the Sheriff and his CCW Staff are on our side.

I am sure you heard Sgt. Hoover say many times during the class that concealed means concealed, and that if you do it right, no one will ever know. So if you carry properly and conduct yourself in a safe and responsible manner, you should not have any worries.

I can tell you from first hand experience that a traffic citation will not land you in trouble with the CCW Unit. A string of them perhaps, but a single ticket will not.
Were in agreement here. The ccw unit at Ben Clark is terriffic! My point here, is that they COULD, not that they would. The rules are unclear and too open to interpretaion by whomever is issueing. No fault of Riverside. Fault is the laws that need changing.
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