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Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner.

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  #1  
Old 12-13-2010, 5:13 PM
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Default LEO's, tell me how this was legal/illegal...

**FYI - this is not a bashing post, I'm a huge police supporter and serve with dozens of them...just wondering about this, and no I do not have any intention to complain, this happened 14 years ago**

Just thought about this the other day and figured I'd ask you guys. I'm pretty well versed on criminal justice, what police are allowed to do and what they aren't allowed to do, constitutional issues, and I am PC832 qualified so I've been through the classes...but I cannot figure this one out.

When I was 17, a couple of my buddies (same age) slept over at my place. At midnight or so, they got bored and thirsty and decided to walk to the liquor store, about a mile away. On their way back, they got picked up by LAPD for being out past curfew. LAPD drove them back up to my house and one of the officers came to the door to see if there was an adult there, perhaps to release them into their custody...I don't know?

I was at home asleep in my bedroom at the time. My mom was working until 0200 and was not home at the time, so I was there alone. The front door was closed and unlocked. A female officer then entered my house, and woke me up. I remember waking up and seeing a (smoking hot blonde, by the way) female figure standing in my doorway, backlit by the hall light. I was still half asleep and confused as hell by the way. She told me that they had Kevin and Mike in the backseat and asked me where my mom was. I told her she would be home within the hour and asked if she could release them and leave them here, but she said without an adult she could not.

My question is...under what authority could she simply walk into my house? There were no exigent circumstances, there was no warrant, there was no consent. She literally just walked into my house, into my bedroom, and woke me up. Any opinions would be appreciated.
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Old 12-13-2010, 5:22 PM
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It was all a dream.....go back to sleep.
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  #3  
Old 12-13-2010, 5:24 PM
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Door was open, wellness check?
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Old 12-13-2010, 5:24 PM
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It was all a dream.....go back to sleep.
No, she totally would have stripped down to lingerie and raped the willing if it was a dream.
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Old 12-13-2010, 5:25 PM
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What's the problem with a smoking hot blonde come into you bedroom?

If she rang or knocked first and no one answered, the fact that your friend said they were staying there and the door was unlock she probably was OK coming inside. But I don't know anything about the law, just a guess.
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Old 12-13-2010, 5:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed_Hazard View Post
Door was open, wellness check?
Healthy 17 year old asleep at 0100 (give or take)...no reason to question the wellness, and no PC to enter based on that I would think...???
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Old 12-13-2010, 5:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackICE View Post
What's the problem with a smoking hot blonde come into you bedroom?
Well there are two parts to that...the first is...well, nothing...smoking hot blondes can come into my bedroom whenever they want...though I prefer brunettes.

Then the other part is the obvious. Fortunately I always stayed out of trouble (gangs, crime, drugs) so there was nothing illegal happening or present, but if there was...then what would have happened? I really want to understand the constitutionality of simply walking into someone's house uninvited, unannounced, without a warrant, and without exigency.
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Old 12-13-2010, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by capo View Post
Healthy 17 year old asleep at 0100 (give or take)...no reason to question the wellness, and no PC to enter based on that I would think...???
Two teenagers out past curfew, give your address as residence. For all you know she knocked and no one responded.
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  #9  
Old 12-13-2010, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed_Hazard View Post
Two teenagers out past curfew, give your address as residence. For all you know she knocked and no one responded.
I'm sure she probably did knock and I just didn't hear it. They told the police that they were sleeping at my house and that my mom would be home after 0200. If that enough is reason to enter the house, that's fine, I just can't cite where that comes from and I'd like to know. Just remembered this the other day and I'm troubled that I cannot solve it on my own which is why I am asking for LEO's explanation.
  #10  
Old 12-13-2010, 5:44 PM
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The authorization comes from your friend and the fact that they were minors.

There was no crime and all the officer wanted to do was make sure that the two minors get released to adults, because if she just released them without checking... and they get into issues again, it's her *** on the line. Since your two friends told her that they were staying there and the fact that she probably knocked, and no one answered... she had the right to check the wellness of the those that's inside the house. Just like if a patrol rolls past a house with the garage door open, they're going to knock and see if anyone's home to let them know... if no one answers, they're going to go in to make sure someone's going to close the garage. They are not going to sit in front of the house guarding it nor are they going to just drive away.

IF, there was something illegal going on in the house when just came in... that's a different story.... with whole new different issues to address.


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  #11  
Old 12-13-2010, 7:00 PM
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I'm gonna say exigent circumstances.....But she alone would have to articulate her reasons why.
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Old 12-13-2010, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NewbieDave View Post
The authorization comes from your friend and the fact that they were minors.

There was no crime and all the officer wanted to do was make sure that the two minors get released to adults, because if she just released them without checking... and they get into issues again, it's her *** on the line. Since your two friends told her that they were staying there and the fact that she probably knocked, and no one answered... she had the right to check the wellness of the those that's inside the house. Just like if a patrol rolls past a house with the garage door open, they're going to knock and see if anyone's home to let them know... if no one answers, they're going to go in to make sure someone's going to close the garage. They are not going to sit in front of the house guarding it nor are they going to just drive away.

IF, there was something illegal going on in the house when just came in... that's a different story.... with whole new different issues to address.


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Are you a cop or a lawyer? Asking because I really want to hear justification from someone who may have done something like this before.

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I'm gonna say exigent circumstances.....But she alone would have to articulate her reasons why.
I think they'd be incredibly hard pressed to articulate exigent circumstances on this one...there weren't any, and my friends saying they're spending the night there doesn't show any, whether I open the door or not.
  #13  
Old 12-13-2010, 7:23 PM
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There is too much information missing, such as the info the officer had at the time of the incident.

People can 'what if' all they want, but they will never know what info the officer had. Everything else is pure speculation and conjecture.
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  #14  
Old 12-13-2010, 7:30 PM
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Originally Posted by capo View Post
Are you a cop or a lawyer? Asking because I really want to hear justification from someone who may have done something like this before.



I think they'd be incredibly hard pressed to articulate exigent circumstances on this one...there weren't any, and my friends saying they're spending the night there doesn't show any, whether I open the door or not.
Protection of property can be considered an exigent circumstance. An unlocked door to a residence in the dead of night would be more than reasonable. Most likely, no search was done. She probably didn't start opening things looking for drugs or weapons. She did what was necessary to resolve the exigency and nothing more. Perfectly legal.
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Old 12-13-2010, 7:45 PM
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Protection of property can be considered an exigent circumstance. An unlocked door to a residence in the dead of night would be more than reasonable. Most likely, no search was done. She probably didn't start opening things looking for drugs or weapons. She did what was necessary to resolve the exigency and nothing more. Perfectly legal.
This troubles me greatly if that is actually correct.
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Old 12-13-2010, 7:57 PM
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You ever ask your friends what they said to the police officer? They tell her they were just sleeping over for one night? That they lived there? Perhaps she was told that the boys resided there, and they gave consent to enter.

What if you were a cop and found a 14 year old boy with no ID at 2am wandering the streets?

He claimed to live at a certain house. You, the police officer, ring the doorbell. No answer. The boy claims he lives there. You need to find an adult to release the boy. Would that be exigent circumstances to enter to find a parent?
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Old 12-13-2010, 8:02 PM
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This troubles me greatly if that is actually correct.
What about an open door? I clear about 2-3 homes a month because the wind blew those stupid double doors open (Installed incorrectly). None the less, its needs to checked....The doors are then secured and we go about our day.
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Old 12-13-2010, 8:10 PM
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The officer most likely got consent to enter from your friends. Consent can only be given by someone who is in lawful possession of the property. A guest, even a temporary guest, can give consent if he/she has permission to be in possession of the property.

Maybe a borderline situation, but seemed like the right thing to do. Now, if she found a stash of illegal AKs next to your bed, and the DA tried to use that at trial, the issue of valid consent would have been a biggie.
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Old 12-13-2010, 8:54 PM
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Originally Posted by fullrearview View Post
What about an open door? I clear about 2-3 homes a month because the wind blew those stupid double doors open (Installed incorrectly). None the less, its needs to checked....The doors are then secured and we go about our day.
Here is the problem I have with it...

Me, I never answer the door unless I know someone is coming over. Additionally, if I am sitting downstairs in front of the TV, from time to time, I have a revolver sitting on the table in front of me in case someone decides they want to enter the house uninvited.

If someone knocks, I may peep and see who it is, or maybe I won't. And if that door suddenly opens because I didn't feel like answering it...well then, someone is going to be in a world of trouble. If some kids simply state that they are staying at my house because they don't want to go to jail, and a cop walks in unannounced, at the very least they're going to have a weapon leveled at them until I realize they're a cop at which point I'm going to VERY quickly free it from my hand and throw my arms in the air and fall to the floor. Hopefully I won't be getting shot as I try to comply as quickly as possible. I lock the door, however, so nobody can just walk in. But what if I didn't? This is why I have a huge problem.

Some kid saying he is staying at my house...if there is no answer at the door, take him to jail and ID him there, contact the parents. Don't simply walk into a house unannounced when there is no emergency. Too much liability in my opinion. I still cannot see how exigency can be justified. If they told the cops that they were staying at my house overnight, which I know they did...if there is no answer, transport them to the station and call the parents. Don't just walk in. Scares me...

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The officer most likely got consent to enter from your friends. Consent can only be given by someone who is in lawful possession of the property. A guest, even a temporary guest, can give consent if he/she has permission to be in possession of the property.
They were arrested about a mile away from the house. If that's the case, anyone could say that they're a guest at any random house and the cops could just walk in...
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Old 12-13-2010, 8:57 PM
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Healthy 17 year old asleep at 0100 (give or take)...no reason to question the wellness, and no PC to enter based on that I would think...???
nvm.
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Old 12-13-2010, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by capo View Post
Here is the problem I have with it...

Me, I never answer the door unless I know someone is coming over. Additionally, if I am sitting downstairs in front of the TV, from time to time, I have a revolver sitting on the table in front of me in case someone decides they want to enter the house uninvited.

If someone knocks, I may peep and see who it is, or maybe I won't. And if that door suddenly opens because I didn't feel like answering it...well then, someone is going to be in a world of trouble. If some kids simply state that they are staying at my house because they don't want to go to jail, and a cop walks in unannounced, at the very least they're going to have a weapon leveled at them until I realize they're a cop at which point I'm going to VERY quickly free it from my hand and throw my arms in the air and fall to the floor. Hopefully I won't be getting shot as I try to comply as quickly as possible. I lock the door, however, so nobody can just walk in. But what if I didn't? This is why I have a huge problem.

Some kid saying he is staying at my house...if there is no answer at the door, take him to jail and ID him there, contact the parents. Don't simply walk into a house unannounced when there is no emergency. Too much liability in my opinion. I still cannot see how exigency can be justified. If they told the cops that they were staying at my house overnight, which I know they did...if there is no answer, transport them to the station and call the parents. Don't just walk in. Scares me...



They were arrested about a mile away from the house. If that's the case, anyone could say that they're a guest at any random house and the cops could just walk in...
The courts have ruled there are several instances which are considered exigent circumstances. I imagine you have one such instance in your mind, which is preservation of life. There are others, such as preservation of property, preservation of evidence, or imminent suspect escape (speaking in very general terms). A trained officer will know that doors are generally locked at night, and that a common MO of burglars is to door check multiple homes until they find one unlocked, and simply walk in. This avoids the need to carry tools or other items which can be used as evidence. Many also believe, if arrested, the charge will be mitigated by the fact that the door was unlocked and they did not force entry.

As far as walking in your house unannounced, it is common practice to knock and notice, especially if the officer's intent was to contact an individual (the parent). If you have a concern about being shot by the police because they walked into your open door unannounced and saw you with a gun, simply lock your door or verbally acknowledge an officer knocking to determine his/her intent. The practice of leaving your door unlocked is more likely to result in someone other than an officer walking in unannounced, namely a burglar.

To be frank, it doesn't matter whether or not you think there is an exigency in the situation, but what the courts think. In this case, the courts would very likely be on the side of the officer.
  #22  
Old 12-13-2010, 9:16 PM
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Question to the OP,this happened 14 years ago and you are still loosing sleep over it?
Perhaps the LEOs should have taken your friends to the station and called their parents.
Then you have not lost sleep and been struck with the idea 14 years later of border line "cop bashing" on this forum. Good Lord man, get over it.
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Old 12-13-2010, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Blademan21 View Post
Question to the OP,this happened 14 years ago and you are still loosing sleep over it?
Perhaps the LEOs should have taken your friends to the station and called their parents.
Then you have not lost sleep and been struck with the idea 14 years later of border line "cop bashing" on this forum. Good Lord man, get over it.
Borderline cop bashing? Give me a break bud, my best friend is a cop, as are most of the people I serve with.

That said, I'm looking for an answer from someone in the profession who KNOWS why this would happen...not some gray area 'well maybe' answer, and certainly not someone like you calling out my reasoning for asking. And yes it was 14 years ago, I just remembered it a few days ago and as mentioned above...I'm fairly knowledgeable about laws regarding how police can act in the scope of their job and I do not know the answer to this, hence the question.

**EDIT**

I actually take offense to your assertion, to be honest. I'm a STAUNCH police supporter, always side on the side of police when something questionable happens (need proof, check the latest cop bashing thread in OT), etc. I work with a lot of them, and always have their backs. I do...however, want to understand why someone was able to walk into my house, from someone with the authority to do it, who knows the reason. Simple as that. Go troll elsewhere...

Last edited by capo; 12-13-2010 at 9:36 PM..
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Old 12-13-2010, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by capo View Post
Borderline cop bashing? Give me a break bud, my best friend is a cop, as are most of the people I serve with.

That said, I'm looking for an answer from someone in the profession who KNOWS why this would happen...not some gray area 'well maybe' answer, and certainly not someone like you calling out my reasoning for asking. And yes it was 14 years ago, I just remembered it a few days ago and as mentioned above...I'm fairly knowledgeable about laws regarding how police can act in the scope of their job and I do not know the answer to this, hence the question.
As previously stated, only the officer involved in the incident or YOUR friends would know what information was available to make the decision to enter the home.

Anything else is pure speculation.

While you may not intend for it to, your posts come across as a little anti-LE.

I think it is time to give it a rest.

Regards,

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Old 12-13-2010, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by capo View Post
They were arrested about a mile away from the house. If that's the case, anyone could say that they're a guest at any random house and the cops could just walk in...
The officer made a judgment call via her experience and based on the totality of the circumstances, including the information she was given from your friends, their credibility, the neighborhood, etc. I am not saying she made the most prudent choice, especially when it came to her safety, or to covering the potential legal issues. It's really hard to tell without more information. Also, this was 14 years ago, and I can't really speak as to the standards back then.

Let's fast forward to today, and take away the problems associated with the fact you were all minors. I understand your fear, but keep in mind a couple of things: remember the limitations on your right to use deadly force and the fact that if you are in your living room you would hear the knock and announcement of the presence of the police.

With that in mind, yes, I suppose theoretically anyone could say they are your guests, or even that they are the actual residents of your house and that an unwelcome person is not leaving. If credible, that would give the LEO sufficient reason to enter. This would not be valid consent for a host of legal issues, but if the LEO has a good faith belief in the truth of that person's statements, then yes. Would they indeed enter? I don't know. It depends on the individual, policy, liability concerns, safety concerns.

The real question is why would anybody do that? That person could not benefit by a LEO entering your property and he/she would have most likely given personal information to the LEO or would still be present (which exposes her to a crime).

Bottom line, you need to be judicious in how you react to a perceived threat. It could be more than the above scenario, it could be someone who is looking for his friend's house, and trying to mistakenly get in yours, it could even be a result of bad information provided to the police and they think your house is a target of their sting. It could be a variety of innocent reasons.

Be safe, lock the doors and windows, get proximity sensor lights and an outdoors security camera to start. And most importantly don't leave firearms in plain view.
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  #26  
Old 12-13-2010, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by travelshot View Post
The officer made a judgment call via her experience and based on the totality of the circumstances, including the information she was given from your friends, their credibility, the neighborhood, etc. I am not saying she made the most prudent choice, especially when it came to her safety, or to covering the potential legal issues. It's really hard to tell without more information. Also, this was 14 years ago, and I can't really speak as to the standards back then.

Let's fast forward to today, and take away the problems associated with the fact you were all minors. I understand your fear, but keep in mind a couple of things: remember the limitations on your right to use deadly force and the fact that if you are in your living room you would hear the knock and announcement of the presence of the police.

With that in mind, yes, I suppose theoretically anyone could say they are your guests, or even that they are the actual residents of your house and that an unwelcome person is not leaving. If credible, that would give the LEO sufficient reason to enter. This would not be valid consent for a host of legal issues, but if the LEO has a good faith belief in the truth of that person's statements, then yes. Would they indeed enter? I don't know. It depends on the individual, policy, liability concerns, safety concerns.

The real question is why would anybody do that? That person could not benefit by a LEO entering your property and he/she would have most likely given personal information to the LEO or would still be present (which exposes her to a crime).

Bottom line, you need to be judicious in how you react to a perceived threat. It could be more than the above scenario, it could be someone who is looking for his friend's house, and trying to mistakenly get in yours, it could even be a result of bad information provided to the police and they think your house is a target of their sting. It could be a variety of innocent reasons.

Be safe, lock the doors and windows, get proximity sensor lights and an outdoors security camera to start. And most importantly don't leave firearms in plain view.
This is what I was looking for, to a degree. Still don't necessarily understand it from a legal standpoint and would love to actually read the PC, but thanks for the insight. I was not aware that this could be justification to enter.

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While you may not intend for it to, your posts come across as a little anti-LE.
Well it's not the intention, and it is borne out of the frustration of not knowing what PC allows for that kind of action. Sure, 14 years ago...but still, it's a question I want an answer to so I asked. You want anti-LE, just go to OT and open any of the two or three anti-LE threads from today alone.
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Old 12-13-2010, 9:51 PM
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This is what I was looking for, to a degree. Still don't necessarily understand it from a legal standpoint and would love to actually read the PC, but thanks for the insight. I was not aware that this could be justification to enter.
You are very welcome. I tell you what, if you have followup questions, feel free to PM me.
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  #28  
Old 12-13-2010, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travelshot View Post
You are very welcome. I tell you what, if you have followup questions, feel free to PM me.
Same here

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  #29  
Old 12-13-2010, 10:10 PM
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There is no PC. The actions are based on Constitutional Law, namely, what does the word "unreasonable" mean in regards to the 4th Amendment. Remember, the 4th doesn't deny the Government from conducting all searches. Neither does it require the Government to obtain a warrant to conduct all searches. Courts have spent decades trying to determine the nuances of what is unreasonable.

If you're interested, here are a few case references:
Ramey (1976) 16 Cal.3d 263, 276;
Olson (1990) 495 U.S. 91;
Ortiz (1995) 32 Cal.App.4th 286, 291-292
Duncan (1986) 42 Cal.3d 91

FWIW, I don't see any cop bashing. Just a demand for a legal explanation.
  #30  
Old 12-13-2010, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by biochembruin View Post
There is no PC. The actions are based on Constitutional Law, namely, what does the word "unreasonable" mean in regards to the 4th Amendment. Remember, the 4th doesn't deny the Government from conducting all searches. Neither does it require the Government to obtain a warrant to conduct all searches. Courts have spent decades trying to determine the nuances of what is unreasonable.

If you're interested, here are a few case references:
Ramey (1976) 16 Cal.3d 263, 276;
Olson (1990) 495 U.S. 91;
Ortiz (1995) 32 Cal.App.4th 286, 291-292
Duncan (1986) 42 Cal.3d 91

FWIW, I don't see any cop bashing. Just a demand for a legal explanation.
Sweet thanks guys!
  #31  
Old 12-14-2010, 9:51 AM
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Think simple common sense when looking for most answers.

Officer enforcing curfew. Perfectly reasonable.

The officer took your friends to the location where they told her they were staying. Perfectly reasonable.

Once at your house your friends let themselves in through the unlocked door Which they left open) and the officer followed them in. Hence no knocking. Perfectly reasonable.

Once inside the officer sought you out to confirm the story your friends gave her about them spending the night. Perfectly reasonable.

Since no adult was present she elected not to release your friends to you and contacted their parents. Perfectly reasonable and a good job done.

No "search" occurred. Many times officers enter properties due to situations where entry is needed to carry out their duty.
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  #32  
Old 12-14-2010, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
Think simple common sense when looking for most answers.

Officer enforcing curfew. Perfectly reasonable.

The officer took your friends to the location where they told her they were staying. Perfectly reasonable.

Once at your house your friends let themselves in through the unlocked door Which they left open) and the officer followed them in. Hence no knocking. Perfectly reasonable.

Once inside the officer sought you out to confirm the story your friends gave her about them spending the night. Perfectly reasonable.

Since no adult was present she elected not to release your friends to you and contacted their parents. Perfectly reasonable and a good job done.

No "search" occurred. Many times officers enter properties due to situations where entry is needed to carry out their duty.
All correct except they were in handcuffs in the backseat of the patrol car.
  #33  
Old 12-14-2010, 10:33 AM
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Funny you failed to mention that???

So how about.

Them in handcuffs telling the officer something to the effect of "Were staying with "capo" tonight The door is unlocked go inside and talk to him he can verify our story".

So she does.

Think simple.

Nothing illegal or unethical in trying to verify their story and also verify that all is okay at your house.


Still after all these years it seems you might want to move on. I'm sure there are other more important issues to deal with in your life.
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What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.
  #34  
Old 12-14-2010, 11:09 AM
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Still after all these years it seems you might want to move on. I'm sure there are other more important issues to deal with in your life.
You seem somewhat agitated and defensive. As mentioned before, I had a pretty simple question to which I received some fairly good answers above. My response to biochembruin above was me effectively moving on from something that I remembered only few days ago and wondered about. Not really a big deal.
  #35  
Old 12-14-2010, 12:39 PM
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Just read all of this. It sounds like everyone is forced to speculate, including yourself. Not to mention you adding more facts as you go along makes for an impossible incident to explain.

The female officer made a judgement call.
Did she run it by a supervisor? No one knows.
Does she have to? No one knows.
Did she knock/ attempt to contact residents? No one knows.
Door unlocked? No one knows.
Friends being cooperative? No one knows.
Details of the call? No one knows.

I don't think your cop bashing, but your responses to the LEO trying to help you with your question does come off more like an argument.

The fact is there is not enough information here to prove or disprove that the female officer had done anything wrong. I would say she did exactly what she believed needed to be done to protect your friends and cover her behind. And only she would be able to explain her actions.
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  #36  
Old 12-14-2010, 1:19 PM
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This thread has run its course I think. The OP received some answers that he appears to be happy with.
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