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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 05-07-2017, 11:53 AM
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Default Clarification on "primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages"

I've been reading up on this a bit this afternoon and have caught myself up on much of the contention regarding these "laws" placed on the CCW application but I have found myself with a definite need to clarify the text:

"Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption."

Based on this text, it's well known that going to a restaurant that has a full bar is still OK, but going to a dive bar that has a menu consisting of "bowl of nuts" is not OK. But when does OK switch over to not OK?

Here's my dilemma: This is Cook's Corner. It's a biker bar. It refers to itself as a biker bar. Any time I go there, it's chock full of bikers. If I went there at 9pm on a Saturday, the liquor is likely flowing out at a rate the bar can barely keep up with. At a glance, one would say that the place is definitely on the not-valid-to-CCW list.

But I'm not a "biker" and when I go there, I don't treat it like a "bar." My wife and I get onto our 21 speed bicycles on the weekend and do a 10 mile ride, up about 900 feet in elevation, and stop off at this bar for breakfast at 9:30 in the morning. They have a kitchen and a separate register for taking food orders right next to the bar, and their breakfast menu is every bit as greasy awesome as any roadside diner. The place is already crawling with dozens of leather-clad, cigar smoking grandpas and far more people are ordering meals than ordering beers (though many order both). We eat breakfast. We relax. We have an awesome bloody mary. If we started late or stay late, live bands start performing outside around noon. When we finish up, we hop back on our bicycles and do a 10 mile ride without pedaling down 900 feet in elevation to get back home.

Their photos on Yelp have more photos of food than alcohol.

Is this a "place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption?" Or is it closer to being a place that you'd go out for dinner that happens to have a bar? They have Taco Tuesdays, All-you-can-eat spaghetti Wednesdays, Chili dog Thursdays, and Fish & Chips Fridays along with live bands several nights a week. But looking at the place reveals that it's very clearly a "biker bar."

Based on my research today, if I carry on my bike ride I won't be able to partake in that mid-ride bloody mary, but would I be able to carry at all in this place of business? If I drove over, I'd just put the gun in a lockbox in my car, but my bicycle has no such reasonable storage feature options.

Last edited by Krusty; 05-07-2017 at 11:58 AM..
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:05 PM
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Don't overthink it. As my instructor put it, (21 years of age or over to get in, then no carrying).

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Old 05-07-2017, 12:13 PM
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If you have to ask, you already know the answer.

No one here is going to be able to get you a definitive answer, it'll all be opinions but nothing based in fact and certainly nothing that will be useful if something happens and you end up in the back seat of a Police cruiser. Only you can be responsible for you and do the right thing.
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maggie06 View Post
Don't overthink it. As my instructor put it, (21 years of age or over to get in, then no carrying).

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That's....that's actually a pretty reasonable method of determination. I see families there regularly.
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:17 PM
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I go by the "can't get in unless your 21" rule. That means the sports bar a few blocks away is GTG, in fact we have taken our 3 year old there for lunch, the menu is pretty good.

I think your actions will speak for themselves here, ie are you drinking or not?
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:33 PM
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the biker bar is a bar first, and food service second. do not ccw.
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Old 05-07-2017, 1:40 PM
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There is no definitive clarification other than the text you quoted.
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Old 05-07-2017, 1:43 PM
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drifts1....do not be stupid. if this is a issue for you, make sure you voice it during your renewal process.
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Old 05-07-2017, 3:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drifts1 View Post
There is no definitive clarification other than the text you quoted.
There really can't be, since, ordinarily, business information is not available to customers.

"Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption."

By what measure?

Square feet of the business?

Dollar amount of alcohol sales vs total sales? Daily, weekly, monthly or yearly? How about by hours of the day, or by breakfast/lunch/dinner 'bands' of hours?

I believe 'by room in the establishment' has been mentioned - 'bar' vs 'dining room'.

I think the really simplified plan has already been mentioned: don't drink when carrying; don't carry in bars.

Since no better information is yet available, that's about the best anyone can do. (More complete would be 'don't carry anyplace you can buy alcohol for onsite consumption', but that seems awfully restrictive.)
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Old 05-07-2017, 5:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
If I drove over, I'd just put the gun in a lockbox in my car, but my bicycle has no such reasonable storage feature options.
If you feel that if you were in your car you'd lock it up, then being on your bicycle certainly isn't going to buy you any legal leverage. You're either going to carry in there or not, I can't see what difference the mode of transportation makes.
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Old 05-07-2017, 6:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nine mil thrill View Post
drifts1....do not be stupid. if this is a issue for you, make sure you voice it during your renewal process.
What the helll??? Who pissed in your corn flakes? What issue are you talking about? You seriously took issue with my comment? What part?
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Old 05-07-2017, 7:12 PM
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followup question: Aside from waiting in line in the kitchen and taking a piss, I reside entirely outdoors, but still on the property. Probably 95% of available seating is outdoor picnic benches.

Does that change anything by residing outdoors?
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Old 05-07-2017, 7:37 PM
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^^^ Again Krusty, there's no clear cut answer to that scenario. I've been to Cook's Corner and in that situation I would carry, between 7am and 11am on weekends that's a breakfast joint in my mind but that's just me and like any opinion here it doesn't carry any weight. I think it's obviously a far tougher argument if you're there at 1am on a Friday and the band is playing.
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Old 05-07-2017, 7:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maggie06 View Post
Don't overthink it. As my instructor put it, (21 years of age or over to get in, then no carrying).
That is a pretty good rule of thumb, and one that doesn't require "opening the books"

Texas, and other states, and the basic rule of thumb for most issuing agencies in CA is that it is prohibited if the business derives more than 51% of it's revenue from the sale of alcohol.

That absolutely includes Cook's. Ya, I've had a few burgers there, and they're pretty good... but we're not talking Spago here.

Even a place with a full bar, my instructor indicated that it was wise to be seated in the restaurant area rather than the bar area at a place like Black Angus, Outback, Chili's, Fridays, Islands, etc...

Out of state, be aware that some states prohibit carry in any location that serves spirits regardless of percentage of income.
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Old 05-07-2017, 8:36 PM
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From their webpage: https://cookscorners.com/about-us/
Quote:
ABOUT US
Cook’s Corner is considered to be one of the most famous biker bars in Southern California. ...
After Prohibition ended in 1933, alcohol began being sold, and Cook’s Corner became a full-fledged bar....

In 1970, a Santa Ana motorcycle accessories owner purchased it and Cooks Corner was molded into what it represents today…an old-fashioned roadhouse. Cook’s (as it is normally referred) is still as rugged-looking as a World War II-era-mess-hall-turned-biker-bar should look.
It's a bar 24/7. A bar's primary purpose is to dispense alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption.

The fact you're wearing spandex and eating breakfast doesn't change the fact that it's a bar.

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Old 05-08-2017, 8:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
From their webpage: https://cookscorners.com/about-us/
It's a bar 24/7. A bar's primary purpose is to dispense alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption.

The fact you're wearing spandex and eating breakfast doesn't change the fact that it's a bar.
^ That.
I'll bet if you were to look up their business license online for type of business it would be listed as bar/restaurant. With bar being first, their primary business. Being outside eating in what is probably an enclosed patio area of the bar, really doesn't change the fact that you are in a business that primarily serves alcoholic beverages.
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Old 05-08-2017, 8:42 AM
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I think ACfixer is giving good advice. Cook's Corner is a neighborhood establishment regardless of the biker nomenclature. I don't see it as a hard core biker bar. I do believe time of day and your behavior has an affect on the conditions precedent for establishing intent. For instance, if you are eating a burger and having an iced tea. Then I personally don't see a problem. Legally, my opinion doesn't mean squat, but logically you're there to eat, partake in the restaurant services, and so are many others. They do serve food for family dining.
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Old 05-08-2017, 9:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert101 View Post
I think ACfixer is giving good advice. Cook's Corner is a neighborhood establishment regardless of the biker nomenclature. I don't see it as a hard core biker bar. I do believe time of day and your behavior has an affect on the conditions precedent for establishing intent. For instance, if you are eating a burger and having an iced tea. Then I personally don't see a problem. Legally, my opinion doesn't mean squat, but logically you're there to eat, partake in the restaurant services, and so are many others. They do serve food for family dining.
This is my approach. I can go to the place that is literally named "The Sports Bar" at noon with my wife and 3 yr old, order some wings, a couple of sandwiches and an iced tea.

I go to PLENTY of actual bars, which are only allowed by law to let in people 21 yrs old or older. There is a big difference here.

It is a shame the law is so vague......but the only reason I have a CCW is to protect my kid, I couldn't care less about myself.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:19 AM
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+1 for the "Under 21 Not Allowed" rule.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:36 AM
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1226964

A list of lawyers.
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:00 PM
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+1 for the "Under 21 Not Allowed" rule.
That certainly helps define it in my mind, and Cook's Corner's marquee say's "Children Welcome" right on it.

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Old 05-08-2017, 8:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert101 View Post
I think ACfixer is giving good advice. Cook's Corner is a neighborhood establishment regardless of the biker nomenclature. I don't see it as a hard core biker bar. I do believe time of day and your behavior has an affect on the conditions precedent for establishing intent. For instance, if you are eating a burger and having an iced tea. Then I personally don't see a problem. Legally, my opinion doesn't mean squat, but logically you're there to eat, partake in the restaurant services, and so are many others. They do serve food for family dining.
Interestingly DOJ BOF form 4012 (CCW Application) doesn't say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by complete BS
While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:
• Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption, unless you are sitting outside on the patio having a burger or maybe somewhere in bar that's not at the bar but at table away from the bar so that you don't feel like it's a bar"
Instead it says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOJ BOF form 4012
While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:
Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption"
If it's a bar, it's a bar. No amount of twisting the definition is going to change that. You (KRUSTY) are an adult who has been entrusted to carry a loaded firearm, in public, in the state of CA. Considering that less than 3/10 of 1% of CA citizens currently posses one, and less than 45% of adults in this state are eligible to get one, I'd say that's a pretty rare thing in CA. If you can't figure out the difference between a bar and NOT a bar, or feel the need to twist a pretty clear statement so you can sit on a patio and eat a burger served BY A BAR then you probably should reconsider your qualifications and fitness to carry that gun.

Everything I've seen and read about this place tells me, by using the "reasonable person" approach, that this place is bar. Take off your gun, go have a burger and enjoy whatever it is you want to enjoy. Don't be stupid, don't make things up, don't lie to yourself or endanger your already endangered 2A rights (not to mention your freedom) in this idiotic state.
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Last edited by baggss; 05-08-2017 at 8:11 PM..
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Old 05-08-2017, 8:51 PM
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Just because you don't think its a bar, doesn't mean its not a bar.
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Old 05-08-2017, 9:08 PM
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Just to stir the pot 😜

Since when are kids allowed in bars?
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Old 05-09-2017, 4:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baggss View Post
Interestingly DOJ BOF form 4012 (CCW Application) doesn't say:



Instead it says:



If it's a bar, it's a bar. No amount of twisting the definition is going to change that. You (KRUSTY) are an adult who has been entrusted to carry a loaded firearm, in public, in the state of CA. Considering that less than 3/10 of 1% of CA citizens currently posses one, and less than 45% of adults in this state are eligible to get one, I'd say that's a pretty rare thing in CA. If you can't figure out the difference between a bar and NOT a bar, or feel the need to twist a pretty clear statement so you can sit on a patio and eat a burger served BY A BAR then you probably should reconsider your qualifications and fitness to carry that gun.

Everything I've seen and read about this place tells me, by using the "reasonable person" approach, that this place is bar. Take off your gun, go have a burger and enjoy whatever it is you want to enjoy. Don't be stupid, don't make things up, don't lie to yourself or endanger your already endangered 2A rights (not to mention your freedom) in this idiotic state.
That "qualifications and fitness" part is a bridge too far. If we had a CCW in Nevada, we WOULD be allowed to carry in a bar. Would we all of a sudden be "qualified and fit" because it is printed on our permit?
We let the state define what is legal for us to do, but that doesn't define what the responsible thing to do is.

If I carry while at the playground with my kid, I am breaking the rules per my IA. But am I being irresponsible? I think not. In no way other than some lines on paper am I being irresponsible or "unfit". It would be HIGHLY irresponsible for me to not do whatever I could to make sure my kid was safe. So....I have to weigh my options. See how that works? Legality is not morality and the law certainly doesn't define what responsible behavior is.

This is another front of the CCW battle, trying to expand where we can carry. Being so damn scared of your rulers all of the time is the wrong mindset to out yourself in.

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Old 05-09-2017, 6:34 AM
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Lots of projection and judgement in this thread...but as per usual no cut-and-dry answer.

Simply know that if something happens, the aftermath will sway drastically based primarily upon: if the act of you drawing/shooting was justified in the moment, and whether or not you've personally partaken in the alcohol or not. Being exposed for simply carrying will either end in a wink and nod or the SWAT showing up (who's to say which?). The outcome will also depend on the day, the individual responding cop(s), the other people in the room, etc. Knowing all that, manage your own risk.

Life is complex and trying to predict circumstances for something like this is like arguing about the right caliber for grizzly bears.
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Old 05-09-2017, 6:58 AM
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This is another front of the CCW battle, trying to expand where we can carry. Being so damn scared of your rulers all of the time is the wrong mindset to out yourself in.
Yes, and walking around violating the current law because you really want to have a Cheeseburger in that bar is going to help with that how? It has nothing to do with being scared and everything to do with being smart.
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Old 05-09-2017, 7:03 AM
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From their website:

Quote:
Cook’s Corner is considered to be one of the most famous biker bars in Southern California. It is located at the juncture of Santiago Canyon and Live Oak Canyon roads. Cook’s Corner was named after Andrew Jackson Cook, who got about 190 acres of Aliso Canyon in a land trade in 1884. In 1926, his son, Earl Jack “E.J.” Cook converted a cabin into a restaurant for miners and local ranchers. After Prohibition ended in 1933, alcohol began being sold, and Cook’s Corner became a full-fledged bar.
https://cookscorners.com/about-us/

My opinion is that it's going to be much like the muzzle-brake vs flash-hider debate.

What does the maker call it and would a reasonable person dispute that label?

A restaurant may serve drinks but is there primarily to serve food. A bar may serve food, but is there primarily to serve alcohol-containing beverages. If a place calls itself a bar and serves enough alcoholic beverages that no reasonable person would consider the label ridiculous, then a reasonable person would say "sure, it's a good bet they serve primarily beer, wine and cocktails".

Webster's says a bar in this context is:

Quote:
a : a counter at which food or especially alcoholic beverages are served We sat at the bar while we waited for a table.
b : a room or establishment where alcoholic drinks and sometimes food are served : barroom They went to a bar for drinks.
They don't call themselves a restaurant, that offers drinks. They call themselves a "full-fledged bar". That doesn't leave much room for ambiguity IMHO. I think the "over 21" rule used by some is not unreasonable but an unsympathetic officer or judge isn't bound by it. The statute refers to what the establishment does... not to the age of the patrons. A hostile DA would dismiss the 21 argument as irrelevant I would think.

If you find yourself in court trying to argue against this logic, and your lawyer isn't good enough to get OJ off, you're going to have a tough time selling that story to the judge.

Am I right?

If it is not defined in the law then it is up to a judge to define it in court. How do you think he/she will define it? Based on the forgoing, likely not in your favor I'm afraid. That DA with hundreds of convictions under his/her belt, vs your public defender or whatever counsel you could afford, who do you think wins that argument on a given day? If you are lucky or tbe DA forgot to eat his Wheaties, maybe you get a pass. For the record I don't see any ethical issue with having breakfast at a biker bar while carrying... if this was about right vs wrong it would be a different story... but the question was about how the legal system sees it and not so much about the morality of the thing... my comments were framed accordingly. Conviction or exoneration aside, what is going to happen when your IA gets wind? Likely revoke your permit unless he is very sympathetic... it's a publict fact and his name could be dragged through the mud because of it next time he's up for election.

Testing this thing in a real world court of law, when you consider the legal expense of a competent defense, plus losing your permit, it ends up being like what they say about arguing on the internet or competing in the Special Olympics. Sure, go right ahead... but is it worth it?
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Old 05-09-2017, 7:15 AM
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First Cook's isn't a Biker Bar, it's all cosplay.

Second, I have a brain and use my own judgment. In the morning they are serving breakfast, not booze. There is a baby in a carrier at the table to my right and a 6 and 8 year old on my left.

I would not hesitate to carry in that situation. Especially since I don't drink and don't have a profile that is interesting to LEOs. Basically there is no situation except a justified self defense shooting that would get me searched by a LEO.

If I needed my weapon I would have it, save my life or my families. If mt IA decided after the fact to pull my permit so be it.

OTOH I would not go inside after say 10 am.

Outside on benches I would hot hesitate to carry day or night. (Again I don't drink)

Everyone has to find what they are comfortable with based on their IA since this is an IA policy not a law and is not well defined.

However don't be stupid. Guns and booze don't mix and having a gun in a Bar full of drunks (even if it were OK) is just asking for problems.
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Old 05-09-2017, 7:23 AM
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Did everyone else skip reading this part?
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Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
We eat breakfast. We relax. We have an awesome bloody mary.
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Old 05-09-2017, 7:33 AM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
First Cook's isn't a Biker Bar, it's all cosplay.
LMAO!
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Old 05-09-2017, 8:40 AM
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Originally Posted by 38Special View Post
Did everyone else skip reading this part?
No. He doesn't seem to care about the prohibition on drinking while carrying;
Quote:
...the licensee shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:

• Consume any alcoholic beverage.
• Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption.
He's interested in being able to do it at a bar. (After all, it's just one Bloody Mary, right?).
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Old 05-09-2017, 8:44 AM
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No. He doesn't seem to care about the prohibition on drinking while carrying;He's interested in being able to do it at a bar. (After all, it's just one Bloody Mary, right?).
....
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Old 05-09-2017, 9:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
First Cook's isn't a Biker Bar, it's all cosplay.
That brought coffee out of my nose when I read it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 38Special View Post
Did everyone else skip reading this part?
Clearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drifts1 View Post
Just to stir the pot ��

Since when are kids allowed in bars?
Actually a surprising number of bars let kids in, at least during some parts of the day. When was younger and frequented bars it was always annoying to me.
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Old 05-09-2017, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 38Special View Post
Did everyone else skip reading this part?
I saw that this is his current habit ("bloody mary") but later adds that if he were carrying he wouldn't be drinking anything alcoholic. So he gets a pass on that score.
Quote:
if I carry on my bike ride I won't be able to partake in that mid-ride bloody mary
The main point here is that whether he drinks or not, or when the heavy-drinking hours of the bar happen to be, or where he sits in the establishment or whether he does so in the company of minors... none of these have a bearing on the establishment's primary purpose... which the establishment itself says in print, publicly, is "a fully functional bar" and "a biker bar". Pretty unambiguous IMHO if our question is how the legal system views the establishment relative to ccw. I'd bet actual money 99 out of 100 judges confronted with the question and the facts of the matter would say "it's a bar... the whole point of the place is to sell alcohol". The other one would want sworn depositions on the meaning of the word "is".
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:49 AM
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Check with the city that you are in. I am a planning commissioner in my city and I issue the use permits and liquor licensees. In my city the use permit would list the establishment as either a restaurant or a bar. To be a restaurant serving alcohol the have to have more than 50% of their sales in food. This is in California, pretty cut and dried!
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Old 05-09-2017, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bruss01 View Post
I saw that this is his current habit ("bloody mary") but later adds that if he were carrying he wouldn't be drinking anything alcoholic. So he gets a pass on that score.
His current habit is in violation of CCW rules.
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Old 05-09-2017, 1:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 38Special View Post
His current habit is in violation of CCW rules.
How, exactly, if he is not carrying? Are you reading something different than I am?

Are you interpreting the "ccw rules" to mean you can never go in a bar, ever again, carrying or not?

He doesn't write "I carry and drink a bloody mary" he writes "If I carry... THEN I won't be able to drink the bloody mary". His current habit is to NOT carry (and as such, feels ok to have a drink) because he isn't sure if the location itself is kosher. If he found out the location was ok to carry, he'd change his habit and NOT drink (so then he WOULD carry) - he spells it out pretty clearly I thought.

If you have an issue with any of this spell it out please.
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Old 05-09-2017, 1:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bainter1212 View Post
I go by the "can't get in unless your 21" rule. That means the sports bar a few blocks away is GTG, in fact we have taken our 3 year old there for lunch, the menu is pretty good.

I think your actions will speak for themselves here, ie are you drinking or not?
He said they drink Bloody Marys when they go there, so ya.
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Old 05-09-2017, 1:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruss01 View Post
How, exactly, if he is not carrying? Are you reading something different than I am?

Are you interpreting the "ccw rules" to mean you can never go in a bar, ever again, carrying or not?

He doesn't write "I carry and drink a bloody mary" he writes "If I carry... THEN I won't be able to drink the bloody mary". His current habit is to NOT carry because he isn't sure if the location itself is kosher. If he found out the location was ok to carry, he'd change his habit - he spells it out pretty clearly I thought.

If you have an issue with any of this spell it out please.
Not in his first post. And I quote;
But I'm not a "biker" and when I go there, I don't treat it like a "bar." My wife and I get onto our 21 speed bicycles on the weekend and do a 10 mile ride, up about 900 feet in elevation, and stop off at this bar for breakfast at 9:30 in the morning. They have a kitchen and a separate register for taking food orders right next to the bar, and their breakfast menu is every bit as greasy awesome as any roadside diner. The place is already crawling with dozens of leather-clad, cigar smoking grandpas and far more people are ordering meals than ordering beers (though many order both). We eat breakfast. We relax. We have an awesome bloody mary. If we started late or stay late, live bands start performing outside around noon. When we finish up, we hop back on our bicycles and do a 10 mile ride without pedaling down 900 feet in elevation to get back home.
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