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  #121  
Old 04-03-2017, 8:28 PM
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just to shed some light on the situation I was one of the students in the class and helped treat the wound (I'm an EMT) with a firefighter who was also in the class.
1. The round actually exited through his foot.
2. it was a XD.
3. it was a OWB holster just normal Kydex holster not a serpa or the like
4. he was reholstering the gun while on the line doing shooting drills and didn't take his finger off the trigger.
5. there were 2 instructors on the line with 12 students with one other with the 11 of us not on the line.
6. The lead instructor explained many times the danger of doing that exact thing.
Any other questions feel free to ask away
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  #122  
Old 04-03-2017, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Leroy5150me View Post
just to shed some light on the situation I was one of the students in the class and helped treat the wound (I'm an EMT) with a firefighter who was also in the class.
1. The round actually exited through his foot.
2. it was a XD.
3. it was a OWB holster just normal Kydex holster not a serpa or the like
4. he was reholstering the gun while on the line doing shooting drills and didn't take his finger off the trigger.
5. there were 2 instructors on the line with 12 students with one other with the 11 of us not on the line.
6. The lead instructor explained many times the danger of doing that exact thing.
Any other questions feel free to ask away
Thank you for the info! Where was the entrance wound?

In this case it sounds like lack of trigger discipline was the primary cause. And a grip safety wont save you from this type of ND.

Good thing you were there!
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  #123  
Old 04-03-2017, 9:13 PM
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Thank you for the info! Where was the entrance wound?

In this case it sounds like lack of trigger discipline was the primary cause. And a grip safety wont save you from this type of ND.

Good thing you were there!
It was in the upper calf with a secondary wound about halfway down the calf where some bone fragments were showing, in addition, to the main exit in the foot. That's why I always bring some trauma stuff.
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  #124  
Old 04-03-2017, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Thank you for the info! Where was the entrance wound?

In this case it sounds like lack of trigger discipline was the primary cause. And a grip safety wont save you from this type of ND.

Good thing you were there!
Sounds like? Leroy stated his finger was on the trigger.

End thread.

Last edited by therealnickb; 04-04-2017 at 7:25 AM..
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  #125  
Old 04-03-2017, 9:18 PM
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oh wow that's a shame, trigger discipline not really that hard....
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  #126  
Old 04-03-2017, 10:02 PM
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Sounds like? Leroy stayed his finger was on the trigger.

End thread.
Yeah I am being gratuitous. But there were likely some incidental factors that contributed, like the unfamiliar environment, maybe pressure to perform, range noise, excitement etc. That is why trigger discipline must be 2nd nature - and safe to say this shooter lacked it.

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Originally Posted by Leroy5150me View Post
It was in the upper calf with a secondary wound about halfway down the calf where some bone fragments were showing, in addition, to the main exit in the foot. That's why I always bring some trauma stuff.
Thanks again!
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  #127  
Old 04-04-2017, 7:00 AM
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Yeah I am being gratuitous. But there were likely some incidental factors that contributed, like the unfamiliar environment, maybe pressure to perform, range noise, excitement etc. That is why trigger discipline must be 2nd nature - ...
That is another reason why people should compete, it reinforces trigger discipline over and over again (otherwise you go home after a DQ).

Here is a pic, I am actually running while in the process of grabbing a mag to reload.

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  #128  
Old 04-04-2017, 8:52 AM
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Thanks for your response. Neither of these modes of carry really lend themselves to training in a class situation. In a private lesson yes, in a group, no.

On a side note, I've never been a fan of 'off body' carry. When you get out of your car, the gun is left behind. You're probably more likely to be a target of an attack away from your car, than in it. Backpacks, fanny pack, purses and the like become the target of a theft and if they are taken from you, you no longer have your gun. More than likely, quite a few crooks realize that a given model/brand of backpack has a "quick access pocket specifically for the gun [you] carry."

I doubted this last bit at one time and when fanny pack holsters first came into use, I was working a deep cover assignment and started carrying with one. Mine had two paracord zipper pulls, that when pulled at the same time, stripped the pocket of the pack away from the back of the platform, revealing the gun and a spare magazine. I remember being in a biker bar, wearing that pack. I was standing next to an outlaw biker who was seated. He turned looked at the pack, then up at me and asked, "Whatcha carryin'?" I responded, "A .45 auto." He said, "Those fanny packs are cool, most of the cops don't know about them yet." I found another way to carry after that.
i hear you about carrying off body. im just not really a social person so i dont find myself out and about and in need of a firearm.

no other class i researched around the area specified the need of a holster. i even found out later the "holsters" i do buy wouldnt have been permitted because i would need to reholster for the qual and the minimal trigger guards i like arent permitted because they are difficult to reholster without disconnecting from the belt.

example:



the interesting thing was that out of the 30 or so people in our class, i was the only one who shot a perfect score from all three distances, in half the required time and with all 3 handguns... ****ty holster and all.

imo, these qualification classes should be focused on shooting, training on being aware of your surroundings and not involve whatever holster the person might choose. even my instructor stated that he has more holsters for each of his carry guns than he has pants. requiring your class to have a standard holster the old timers wear is silly imo.

btw, this is what i will use now:

https://urbancarryholsters.com/holst...ter.html#video
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  #129  
Old 04-04-2017, 9:15 AM
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That is another reason why people should compete, it reinforces trigger discipline over and over again (otherwise you go home after a DQ).

Here is a pic, I am actually running while in the process of grabbing a mag to reload.
"That is another reason why people should compete train, it reinforces trigger discipline over and over again (otherwise you see NDs).

i personally wouldnt want anyone who hasnt been training to come out to a live fire competition where so many other stress factors come into play.
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  #130  
Old 04-04-2017, 9:18 AM
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i hear you about carrying off body. im just not really a social person so i dont find myself out and about and in need of a firearm.

no other class i researched around the area specified the need of a holster. i even found out later the "holsters" i do buy wouldnt have been permitted because i would need to reholster for the qual and the minimal trigger guards i like arent permitted because they are difficult to reholster without disconnecting from the belt.

example:



the interesting thing was that out of the 30 or so people in our class, i was the only one who shot a perfect score from all three distances, in half the required time and with all 3 handguns... ****ty holster and all.

imo, these qualification classes should be focused on shooting, training on being aware of your surroundings and not involve whatever holster the person might choose. even my instructor stated that he has more holsters for each of his carry guns than he has pants. requiring your class to have a standard holster the old timers wear is silly imo.

btw, this is what i will use now:

https://urbancarryholsters.com/holst...ter.html#video
I was considering getting one of those holsters as well but it seems unnecessarily difficult to draw, especially if you have to do it one handed. Sitting down would be another big issue, especially in a car with a seat belt on.
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  #131  
Old 04-04-2017, 9:59 AM
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no other class i researched around the area specified the need of a holster. i even found out later the "holsters" i do buy wouldnt have been permitted because i would need to reholster for the qual and the minimal trigger guards i like arent permitted because they are difficult to reholster without disconnecting from the belt.
That is interesting, I am in SoCal and the class I took specifically states on their website the need for a holster and draws from concealment as part of the qualification. We were permitted to use whatever holster we chose as long as it was safe.
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  #132  
Old 04-04-2017, 1:22 PM
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I was considering getting one of those holsters as well but it seems unnecessarily difficult to draw, especially if you have to do it one handed. Sitting down would be another big issue, especially in a car with a seat belt on.
yeah, it would be hard to find a holster that was perfect for every instance.

belted in would present an issue, as would solely using one hand. i expect the same would be if i could only use my right arm and it somehow because damaged when my standard holster was attached to my right hip.

if it makes any difference, i wouldnt have a gun on my hip while driving anyway.
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  #133  
Old 04-05-2017, 7:41 AM
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i hear you about carrying off body. im just not really a social person so i dont find myself out and about and in need of a firearm.
I'm not sure that I understand completely. I don't see what being "a social person" has to do with CCW. You tell us that you carry in a box in your car, but if you stop for gas, you exit the car, leaving your gun inside it. Since no one can predict the exact moment that you might need it ..........

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Originally Posted by NYT View Post
no other class i researched around the area specified the need of a holster. i even found out later the "holsters" i do buy wouldnt have been permitted because i would need to reholster for the qual and the minimal trigger guards i like arent permitted because they are difficult to reholster without disconnecting from the belt.
I've got some of those types of holsters. I think they have limited use because I prefer a holster that stays open and lets me reholster if it's appropriate. In most cases LE will be on the way very quickly after shots are fired. In most cases I want to be able to holster as they pull up, so I don't have a gun in my hand. They can't the good guys from the bad at that moment and will disarm everyone until things can be sorted out. Not having my gun visible in those seconds, gives me the opportunity to ID myself as a retired LEO. I don't want to put it on the ground because there, they still see it, and might over–react. It's also not controlled on the ground.

Those types of holsters don't work well in class situations. In private lessons, yes. Classes, not so much. Some of them just hold up the line but some, cross draws, SOBs, and some shoulder holsters, for example, are not safe for a situation where other shooters are on the line.

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the interesting thing was that out of the 30 or so people in our class, i was the only one who shot a perfect score from all three distances, in half the required time and with all 3 handguns... ****ty holster and all.
I'm not surprised. People who are on this forum have more interest in firearms than the average person. They usually know more about them, laws about them and about various kinds of them. They also tend to train more and are more safety minded. It's scary to walk the line at ranges and see people with all sorts of guns, but who can't shoot them accurately or handle them safely.

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Originally Posted by NYT View Post
imo, these qualification classes should be focused on shooting, training on being aware of your surroundings and not involve whatever holster the person might choose. even my instructor stated that he has more holsters for each of his carry guns than he has pants. requiring your class to have a standard holster the old timers wear is silly imo.
Most of us who have been shooting for a long time accumulate a "box of holsters." They look and sound great, in the gun mags or on the Net, but after wearing them for awhile, their shortcomings show up. It seems to me that a CCW class should focus on the things you mention AND it should encompass drawing and firing from the student's holster of choice. We give advice on what the various kinds of holsters are and where to get them, before the class, as part of the service. Some CCW classes (taught by others) are run with all the shooting done from a bench or a table. A student who never holsters during a class can't be trained to keep his finger off the trigger while holstering. He can be told and it can be demonstrated. But if never does it under supervision, he may not even be aware that he's doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by NYT View Post
I tried one of these holsters and they didn't work for me. Maybe it was the oversize emergency food supply that I carry around, but when seated, the gun was impossible to draw and highly uncomfortable. And it does not pass several tests that I require of a holster; things like allowing one to obtain the Master Grip before drawing, carrying it at the proper angle for the draw, and allowing one handed reholstering.

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yeah, it would be hard to find a holster that was perfect for every instance.
There's no such animal. Every CCW holster is a compromise between comfort and concealment. I've carried everything from a full size 1911 to a Seecamp .32 in various places and in various holsters, depending on my assignment and degree of concealability and availability needed. Remember that CCW is not supposed to be comfortable. It's supposed to be comforting.

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if it makes any difference, i wouldnt have a gun on my hip while driving anyway.
I always have my gun on my hip while driving. At some point I'm going to get out and I want to have the gun on me at that moment. A friend of mine was stuck in traffic at a light when he heard a tapping on his window. He looked up into the barrel of a .45 pointed at him. The gunman motioned for him to exit the car. As he did he removed the keys from the ignition and handed them to the car jacker. The crook sat down in the driver's seat and while he was looking for the ignition keyway, my friend drew and shot him. If he had been carrying as you do, in a locked box (maybe you unlock it while driving) or in a backpack, he could not have gotten to it. I think that, if you're serious about self–defense, on–body carry is the only way to go.
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  #134  
Old 04-05-2017, 3:27 PM
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I always have my gun on my hip while driving. At some point I'm going to get out and I want to have the gun on me at that moment. A friend of mine was stuck in traffic at a light when he heard a tapping on his window. He looked up into the barrel of a .45 pointed at him. The gunman motioned for him to exit the car. As he did he removed the keys from the ignition and handed them to the car jacker. The crook sat down in the driver's seat and while he was looking for the ignition keyway, my friend drew and shot him. If he had been carrying as you do, in a locked box (maybe you unlock it while driving) or in a backpack, he could not have gotten to it. I think that, if you're serious about self–defense, on–body carry is the only way to go.
I sure hope that never happens to me (I drive a flashy sports car, don't judge lol), but mine will be attached to my hip religiously.
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  #135  
Old 04-06-2017, 11:19 AM
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I sure hope that never happens to me (I drive a flashy sports car, don't judge lol), but mine will be attached to my hip religiously.


Practice practice practice. Practice handling your pistol unloaded whenever you're not doing anything special. TV time is a good time to get off the bottom and practice draw retention, picture, then retention, safe, re holster.

Keep your finger out of the trigger guard and you wont pull the trigger and THAT is the practice point. Do it 1000 times right and you won't do it wrong. Put dog poop on the trigger and practice until you don't have a poopy finger :-)

Disclaimer, I'm not sure thats a really good idea....


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  #136  
Old 04-07-2017, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bigger hammer View Post
I'm not sure that I understand completely. I don't see what being "a social person" has to do with CCW. You tell us that you carry in a box in your car, but if you stop for gas, you exit the car, leaving your gun inside it. Since no one can predict the exact moment that you might need it ..........
i dont socialize. if i drive into the office for work, i dont go anywhere after.

i live and work in a well to do area. if i were getting gas in west sac or the bay area, i would carry.

i also dont expect to be able to pull my weapon when a criminal already has his weapon pointed at me. me thinking that i can pull and get a shot off before a criminal can pull the trigger is ridiculous, rambo thinking. this is why i actively work on paying attention to my environment and actively work on not putting myself in positions where i might have to draw a firearm.

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Originally Posted by bigger hammer View Post
I've got some of those types of holsters. I think they have limited use because I prefer a holster that stays open and lets me reholster if it's appropriate. In most cases LE will be on the way very quickly after shots are fired. In most cases I want to be able to holster as they pull up, so I don't have a gun in my hand. They can't the good guys from the bad at that moment and will disarm everyone until things can be sorted out. Not having my gun visible in those seconds, gives me the opportunity to ID myself as a retired LEO. I don't want to put it on the ground because there, they still see it, and might over–react. It's also not controlled on the ground.
yes, this is a good point about being in control of the firearm. i dont understand though how a leo would rather the citizen reholster his firearm than place it on the ground in front of them. are they thinking they might have another gun somewhere on their person? i am obviously not trained le but if i came onto a scene of a shooting and saw a gun in front of someone, i would be more calm than have to wonder where it was.

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Originally Posted by bigger hammer View Post
Most of us who have been shooting for a long time accumulate a "box of holsters." They look and sound great, in the gun mags or on the Net, but after wearing them for awhile, their shortcomings show up. It seems to me that a CCW class should focus on the things you mention AND it should encompass drawing and firing from the student's holster of choice. We give advice on what the various kinds of holsters are and where to get them, before the class, as part of the service. Some CCW classes (taught by others) are run with all the shooting done from a bench or a table. A student who never holsters during a class can't be trained to keep his finger off the trigger while holstering. He can be told and it can be demonstrated. But if never does it under supervision, he may not even be aware that he's doing it wrong.
this is what kind of bugged me. there were several people in the class where it was obvious they had never shot while drawing from a holster. i would think it obvious practicing with live ammo is far more dangerous than having the student practice at home with an unloaded weapon. i had a lady right next to me who was a larger framed woman struggle placing the firearm back into her holster.

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Originally Posted by bigger hammer View Post
I tried one of these holsters and they didn't work for me. Maybe it was the oversize emergency food supply that I carry around, but when seated, the gun was impossible to draw and highly uncomfortable. And it does not pass several tests that I require of a holster; things like allowing one to obtain the Master Grip before drawing, carrying it at the proper angle for the draw, and allowing one handed reholstering.
yes, it def does have its drawbacks. for me though, the benefits outweigh the costs. i will never print with this holster, nor will i worry that my shirt has ridden up and caused panic to an SJW who might call le.

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Remember that CCW is not supposed to be comfortable. It's supposed to be comforting.
good point. you being le might have ingrained this in your mind whereas i never had to rely on a firearm to save my life. i may have a lazy way of thinking when it comes to this logic because if i am not comfortable, i may just stop carrying.

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Originally Posted by bigger hammer View Post
I always have my gun on my hip while driving. At some point I'm going to get out and I want to have the gun on me at that moment. A friend of mine was stuck in traffic at a light when he heard a tapping on his window. He looked up into the barrel of a .45 pointed at him. The gunman motioned for him to exit the car. As he did he removed the keys from the ignition and handed them to the car jacker. The crook sat down in the driver's seat and while he was looking for the ignition keyway, my friend drew and shot him. If he had been carrying as you do, in a locked box (maybe you unlock it while driving) or in a backpack, he could not have gotten to it. I think that, if you're serious about self–defense, on–body carry is the only way to go.
thats a tough situation to be in. if i get carjacked, the crook can have my car. all it means is that i can buy a new one. i honestly dont know if its worth the chance that i might be prosecuted for using more force than necessary.

you have made some good points. i will try to carry more when my urban carry is delivered. i put 3 firearms on my CC permit, i can keep one in the lock box and one on me.
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  #137  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:41 PM
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Practice practice practice. Practice handling your pistol unloaded whenever you're not doing anything special. TV time is a good time to get off the bottom and practice draw retention, picture, then retention, safe, re holster.
The old saying is that "Practice makes perfect." But it's more accurate to say that "PERFECT practice makes perfect." If you're (not "you" specifically tsnoform) practicing with bad habits, all you're doing is ingraining those bad habits. I suggest either practicing with a coach, or doing at least some practice with a video cam focused on your entire draw, dry fire, and reholstering. You'll see things that you didn't know you were doing.
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  #138  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:41 PM
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i dont socialize. if i drive into the office for work, i dont go anywhere after.
Never go out for a beer after work. Never stop at the 7-11 for a soda or a snack? Never stop for gas?

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i live and work in a well to do area. if i were getting gas in west sac or the bay area, i would carry.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard crime victims of all sorts say something like "But I thought this was a safe area." For decades crooks have had the ability to go anywhere they like. Yes, there are some bad areas that I avoid, even carrying a gun and with backup. But that doesn’t mean that in a "well to do area" there is no crime. The city that is awarded the "Safest City in the US" still has crime, some of it violent.

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i also dont expect to be able to pull my weapon when a criminal already has his weapon pointed at me. me thinking that i can pull and get a shot off before a criminal can pull the trigger is ridiculous, rambo thinking. this is why i actively work on paying attention to my environment and actively work on not putting myself in positions where i might have to draw a firearm.
At the time of this incident, in this area, car jackers were shooting their victims so that they would not ID or testify against them. My friend was of a mind–set that this guy was going to shoot him before he drove off.

Sometimes you have no choice. Sometimes you're faced with a guy, who even if you cooperate completely, he'll still shoot you. I saw a crime scene where restaurant patrons and employees had been herded into a back room, made to kneel and then executed with a shot to the back of their heads. I'll never let that happen to me. if necessary I'll draw against his gun. I might die, but I know that I'll be the last person he shoots. Not Rambo, and not Superman, just the realization that evil exists in the world and sometimes it must be stopped in its tracks. There are methods and techniques that will make it more likely that I'll win and not be shot, but there are no guarantees.

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yes, this is a good point about being in control of the firearm. i dont understand though how a leo would rather the citizen reholster his firearm than place it on the ground in front of them. are they thinking they might have another gun somewhere on their person? i am obviously not trained le but if i came onto a scene of a shooting and saw a gun in front of someone, i would be more calm than have to wonder where it was.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. After a shooting incident, in most situations where I live in LA, the area will be flooded with LEOs within a few moments. I hope to be behind cover/concealment holding a gun on the suspect, who will either be on the ground or have his hands up in surrender. At the moment the LEOs arrive they won't know be able to tell the good guys from the bad guys so they're going to go on appearances when they first arrive. I don't want to be the only guy holding a gun at that moment. I don't want to put it on the ground because it's not controlled there and if the suspect is still on his feet, may be tempted to make a move for it. The act of crouching down to place it on the ground might be interpreted by one of the responding LEOs as an attempt to hide. I'm going to reholster as the sirens approach so that when LE arrives, it's not showing.

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Originally Posted by NYT View Post
this is what kind of bugged me. there were several people in the class where it was obvious they had never shot while drawing from a holster.
That's the case with most of our students in the CCW classes. They've probably been to a range where everything was done from a bench or out of a range bag, or something like that. So we teach them how to draw safely from a holster. We start with blue guns, with a three step process, always emphasizing two things, the laser rule and finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. I mentioned earlier that we've instituted a system where all reholstering is done with an instructor immediately adjacent to the student. The instructor taps the student on the shoulder, says his name, and after ensuring that his finger is off the trigger and indexed on the slide, tells him "You're clear to holster." Even then a surprising number of people move their finger to the trigger as they bring the gun to the holster. The instructor is watching for this and will grab the student's hand to prevent them from holstering and will tell the student to take his finger off the trigger.

I'd never put a bunch of students on the line working with holsters until they've either been through previous courses with us or have demonstrated high degrees of proficiency.

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Originally Posted by NYT View Post
i would think it obvious practicing with live ammo is far more dangerous than having the student practice at home with an unloaded weapon.
It is. That's why we start the instruction with blue guns, progress to real guns, that are not loaded and finally with loaded guns. But even though a student has practiced at home, there's no guarantee that he's been doing it right. More often than not, there are serious safety concerns that the student isn't even aware of. Finger on the trigger is the second most common. MOST common is pointing the gun at themselves at some point in the holstering procedure.

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Originally Posted by NYT View Post
i had a lady right next to me who was a larger framed woman struggle placing the firearm back into her holster.
I'd bet that she was lasering her leg, her feet, or her torso, at some point.

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Originally Posted by NYT View Post
yes, it def does have its drawbacks. for me though, the benefits outweigh the costs. i will never print with this holster, nor will i worry that my shirt has ridden up and caused panic to an SJW who might call le.
Be careful about saying "never will print." You know the saying about "the best laid plans of mice and men ..."

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Originally Posted by NYT View Post
good point. you being le might have ingrained this in your mind whereas i never had to rely on a firearm to save my life. i may have a lazy way of thinking when it comes to this logic because if i am not comfortable, i may just stop carrying.
Late in my career I was confronted, while off–duty, by a drugged, homeless, crazy guy who was trying to kill me, and I had to shoot him to save myself. Decades of carrying and never needing it, lead up to that one moment in time.

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thats a tough situation to be in. if i get carjacked, the crook can have my car. all it means is that i can buy a new one. i honestly dont know if its worth the chance that i might be prosecuted for using more force than necessary.
At that time these car jackers were shooting their victims, probably so they couldn't ID them if they were caught.

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Originally Posted by NYT View Post
you have made some good points. i will try to carry more when my urban carry is delivered. i put 3 firearms on my CC permit, i can keep one in the lock box and one on me.
That's great. I'd hate for you to be without a gun when you need it. It's very rare that a gun is needed, but when it is, there's no substitute.
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:12 AM
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From what I hear Freds Firearms, the store that sets up the class is now permanently closed. That means the douchbsg that shot himself is more then likely suing. Another person who isn't man enough to take responsibility for thier own actions.
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Old 04-11-2017, 5:06 AM
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I've read the posts, and I've qualified for a CA CCW in two jurisdictions, I get that we're dealing with serious and deadly stuff.

Maybe this is a little Devil's Advocate , or I'm just confused about something:

When I think of this current ND incident involving a CCW Applicant on one hand, and a ND that occurs during some typical Law Enforcement training (not academy) on the other, I can't help but feel like the "hammer" comes down mercilessly on this instructor, perhaps the range itself, and of course the CCW applicant himself -- but not so much the Law Enforcement ND...

How come?

It's safe to say the CCW guy was presumably new to (at least) concealable pistols and needed training on their safe and effective use, right? Isn't this exactly where we're expected to make mistakes? I remember a DI from my Infantry training saying something like "bleed in training so you don't bleed in combat." We've all made mistakes - small or large - during firearms training, but there's no slack being given out today

I just don't think that it's standard practice to fire the Range Master when there's a ND over at the police range, or during SWAT live-fire training (unless perhaps there's serious injury?) We don't think the officer(s) involved are let go, do we? I don't.

Do we unreasonably cut professionals the slack, but tar and feather the new guy, and an instructor who didn't directly and actually cause the incident? Does this make sense?

And when LE have a Negligent Discharge, don't the involved personnel undergo training to improve their handling skills?

I'm not advocating "firing" anyone! I've seen video of a Las Vegas police officer clearly having a ND not five feet from the head of someone lying on the ground Should she have been fired for that? I don't know, the issue is too complex to just pop out a simple answer here.

I just wonder if our perception or possibly conditioning has us seeing backwards on this? Should we instead be tougher towards the Professional -- gals and guys who are carrying in public 24/7, and understanding towards what the new guy is in training for?

I don't have answers here - like I said, the devil made me do it
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  #141  
Old 04-17-2017, 5:16 AM
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Well, my perspective is a bit different; all share responsibility but It was sad to see the instructor sanctioned.

While I am very strict and apply responsibility to the instructor, the range AND the student, I don't believe I said anywhere someone should be sanctioned or punished. Because I don't think anyone was negligent; and I think there's a big difference.

1. If anyone attends instructor training or is an instructor if they think there is not a coachable moment here, well, I hope you don't teach at my range. And if there is a coachable moment, that means they share responsibility. That does not necessarily mean the student can sue or the i structor should be sanctioned.

2. The student learned his lesson the hard way.




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  #142  
Old 05-12-2017, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back4more70 View Post
My own anecdote here is that with my hammer-fired Beretta PX4 Storm, I always engage the slide safety to holster it, and then disengage it after it is holstered. I thought about removing the safety to make it a decocker only, but I left it on for this very reason.


Excellent idea, but won't go over well with the anti-manual-safety folks.

It may not have been a cheap holster as much as it could have been someone that has little to no experience holstering.
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  #143  
Old 05-24-2017, 9:10 AM
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Fred's Firearms is no longer an approved CCW instructor for Stanislaus County.

Source: https://www.scsdonline.com/ccw.html?download=33
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  #144  
Old 05-24-2017, 4:59 PM
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"through his thigh, calf, and ended up in his ankle." That has GOT to hurt.
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  #145  
Old 05-24-2017, 6:31 PM
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While I understand the instructors point that they have set things they must teach in their CCW Class, inserting and removing a firearm from a holster are in my opinion the high risk operations of CCW.

My big objection to the latest School Zone Law is that it in theory has all CCW holders un-holstering, clearing then reloading and holstering right outside school property. Whoever wrote that law didn't think.

I think all CCW holders need basic training on Holster carrying somewhere before they can even practice at home.
RE-Holster work is a lot like prepping a plane for a flight, you need to develop precise steps you follow every time.

If there is not time in a class to do it properly at the range with sufficient supervision then it should be done with blue guns in the classroom.

I would also think this was a good opportunity for instructors to offer additional training (Additional classes etc), course lots of gun owners are much more proficient at squeezing a penny then a trigger.



Hope the injured party recovers and the instructor continues to teach.
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  #146  
Old 05-24-2017, 7:44 PM
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why would a instructor lose his/her permit to teach others?

is this the "first" time there has been a problem in one of his classes?
many repeat problems?

this is like firing a math teacher cause a student failed a test.
or a car driving instructor gets fired cause a student hit another car?



this said coming from one who does not know any of the names, people involved.

student failed a simple thing (yes very bad punishment here) but why would a street cop tell the instructor, your out of work?
and where does a street cop get off saying this to anyone?

what did the instructor do wrong?

sad for the guy who "shot himself", but i understand this happens a bit in police training.
do they fire that instructor also?


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  #147  
Old 05-25-2017, 8:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
Fred's Firearms is no longer an approved CCW instructor for Stanislaus County.

Source: https://www.scsdonline.com/ccw.html?download=33
I wouldn't think a business that is closed would be on the approved list.

He is still the instructor for the Police academy though.
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