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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 05-09-2017, 1:21 PM
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Actually there is no law in California that says you can not CCW in a bar. There is a law in California which says all restrictions to the CCW must be printed on the permit. So technically having a CCW in a bar in California is not a violation of California law per say unless it says so on your license.

The problem is the restrictions on the application are part of the agreement you made with your IA. Violate them and your CCW could be revoked by your IA.

There is even a pretty well none case where a CCW holder had been drinking, had an incident later which was ruled a good shoot however he was still charged and either plead or was convicted of carrying concealed without a permit based as far as we can tell on the idea that his permit was invalid anytime he was in violation of his agreement with his IA.


Pretty weird, but this is California. So what is at risk could be loss of permit and charges of carrying without a permit.
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  #42  
Old 05-09-2017, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by nedro View Post
Not in his first post. And I quote;
But I'm not a "biker" and when I go there, I don't treat it like a "bar." My wife and I get onto our 21 speed bicycles on the weekend and do a 10 mile ride, up about 900 feet in elevation, and stop off at this bar for breakfast at 9:30 in the morning. They have a kitchen and a separate register for taking food orders right next to the bar, and their breakfast menu is every bit as greasy awesome as any roadside diner. The place is already crawling with dozens of leather-clad, cigar smoking grandpas and far more people are ordering meals than ordering beers (though many order both). We eat breakfast. We relax. We have an awesome bloody mary. If we started late or stay late, live bands start performing outside around noon. When we finish up, we hop back on our bicycles and do a 10 mile ride without pedaling down 900 feet in elevation to get back home.
And where in this does he say he is carrying when he does this? He doesn't.
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  #43  
Old 05-09-2017, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Actually there is no law in California that says you can not CCW in a bar. There is a law in California which says all restrictions to the CCW must be printed on the permit. So technically having a CCW in a bar in California is not a violation of California law per say unless it says so on your license.

The problem is the restrictions on the application are part of the agreement you made with your IA. Violate them and your CCW could be revoked by your IA.

There is even a pretty well none case where a CCW holder had been drinking, had an incident later which was ruled a good shoot however he was still charged and either plead or was convicted of carrying concealed without a permit based as far as we can tell on the idea that his permit was invalid anytime he was in violation of his agreement with his IA.


Pretty weird, but this is California. So what is at risk could be loss of permit and charges of carrying without a permit.
While you are technically correct there are a few "gotchas".

If your permit has a condition printed on it the permit is only valid while you are meeting the condition.

If it says you may not wear a red hat and carry... then if you put on a red hat and carry concealed it is as if you do not have a permit while doing both, and if stopped, would be charged with carrying without a permit, because your permit was not valid while you had the red hat on.

If you are wearing a red hat, decide you want to carry, take the red hat off, and strap on your ccw... you are good to go... when you want to wear the red hat again though you have to unstrap your ccw first.

I seem to remember that case or one very similar to it. The guy had a permit that said he couldn't carry while drinking. He did use his ccw AFTER he had been drinking... but he had a good lawyer and kept his yap shut, nobody could prove he was carrying before the shoot, while actually drinking. He got sort of lucky/smart (if you can call carrying after spending time drinking "smart"). The shoot itself was ruled good though. I think his permit still got yanked though. Sheriff's discretion and apparently they no longer considered him a good risk. No proof needed for that.

So, yes, there is a law that says you can't carry in contravention of the terms of your permit, so for you personally, whatever your permit says, essentially has the force of law behind it. Even if it's not "on the books".
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Last edited by bruss01; 05-09-2017 at 2:12 PM..
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  #44  
Old 05-09-2017, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bruss01 View Post
And where in this does he say he is carrying when he does this? He doesn't.
He is asking about going there and is telling you what he does when he goes there.
So ya, he did not mention carrying, but simply and undeniably implied it.
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  #45  
Old 05-09-2017, 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by nedro View Post
He is asking about going there and is telling you what he does when he goes there.
So ya, he did not mention carrying, but simply and undeniably implied it.
Nope. Read on.

He adds that if he were to carry, then he wouldn't be able to enjoy a drink. It's there, go back and read... I already quoted it once.

His question is not about drinking while carrying. It's about stopping for breakfast in a place that also serves alcohol... and calls itself a bar. Hey, you can get a glass of wine at Marie Calendars... along with your waffles for Sunday Brunch. No problemo. And you can carry while you eat waffles at MC... just forgo the wine until you are no longer carrying if that's a condition of your permit. That's a separate question than "can I just eat some damn waffles while carrying, in a place that calls itself a bar - no drinks". That is what he's asking. You're crossing over the two separate things.
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Last edited by bruss01; 05-09-2017 at 2:22 PM..
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  #46  
Old 05-09-2017, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 38Special View Post
Did everyone else skip reading this part?

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Based on my research today, if I carry on my bike ride I won't be able to partake in that mid-ride bloody mary, but would I be able to carry at all in this place of business?
did you skip reading that part?
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  #47  
Old 05-09-2017, 2:47 PM
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Originally Posted by shenecke View Post
Check with the city that you are in. I am a planning commissioner in my city and I issue the use permits and liquor licensees. In my city the use permit would list the establishment as either a restaurant or a bar. To be a restaurant serving alcohol the have to have more than 50% of their sales in food. This is in California, pretty cut and dried!
That makes a lot of sense. Part of my coming up with this question was because of that shooter who was killed by a CCWer out in Texas. Apparently in Texas there are signs that clearly denote if 51% or more of their sales comes from alcohol. anywhere where that 51% sign is, you can't carry. Very clear rules. California, not so much. But if Cooks Corner serves meals, lets kids in, AND has a license as a restaurant, that makes it far more cut-and-dry.

edit: The easiest way to tell this one would probably be to look for permits on the walls somewhere. I'll keep an eye out this weekend. My expectation, however, is that they're over 51% profits from alcohol considering the bar is larger than the kitchen.

Last edited by Krusty; 05-09-2017 at 3:01 PM..
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  #48  
Old 05-09-2017, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bruss01 View Post
So, yes, there is a law that says you can't carry in contravention of the terms of your permit, so for you personally, whatever your permit says, essentially has the force of law behind it. Even if it's not "on the books".
Actually that law says conditions must be written on the permit. The restrictions on bars and alcohol are not written on my permit.

Therefore logic would say they don't apply to me. The terms you refer to are actually on my application not the permit.

Applying conditions printed on the application appears to be a violation of California law unless the permit said something like "You must comply to all the conditions on your application."

We have no clear court cases other then the guy who pled or was convicted of carrying without a permit because he was drinking at the time.We also don't know if the restriction was printed on his permit.

However I totally agree with you that California does not enforce the laws as written they enforce them as they see fit and failure to follow the conditions on the application could easily land someone in a big legal mess. Bess to error on the safe side and not become the Anti's next example.
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Last edited by 71MUSTY; 05-09-2017 at 3:15 PM..
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  #49  
Old 05-09-2017, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
did you skip reading that part?
It is clear you not only edited your first post but you are also trying to make it look as if you never carry while there with a bloody mary.......
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Old 05-09-2017, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 38Special View Post
It is clear you not only edited your first post but you are also trying to make it look as if you never carry while there with a bloody mary.......
My original post was last edited 5 minutes after posting, likely correcting some grammar or fixing some other detail.
Quote:
Last edited by Krusty; 05-07-2017 at 12:58 PM..
Your post was made on 5-9-2017 at 7:23AM, just about 2 days after my last edit.

edit: Found a nifty feature! If I click on the "last edited by" link, it shows the changes. My change was adding a link to the Yelp for Cook's corner. 1 minute later I changed the sentence structure of the link to the Yelp review.

Last edited by Krusty; 05-09-2017 at 5:17 PM..
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  #51  
Old 05-09-2017, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
My original post was last edited 5 minutes after posting, likely correcting some grammar or fixing some other detail.


Your post was made on 5-9-2017 at 7:23AM, just about 2 days after my last edit.

edit: Found a nifty feature! If I click on the "last edited by" link, it shows the changes. My change was adding a link to the Yelp for Cook's corner. 1 minute later I changed the sentence structure of the link to the Yelp review.
You can see your own edits, not others.

Last edited by 38Special; 05-09-2017 at 5:35 PM..
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  #52  
Old 05-09-2017, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
LMAO!
Was gonna say... the "real" bikers used to hang out at Angels or Starting Gate.
But being in an RC, I spent a lot of time at Cook's.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 05-09-2017, 6:26 PM
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I'd have no problem eating there or getting my bike blessed.
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Old 05-09-2017, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Actually that law says conditions must be written on the permit. The restrictions on bars and alcohol are not written on my permit.

Therefore logic would say they don't apply to me. The terms you refer to are actually on my application not the permit.

Applying conditions printed on the application appears to be a violation of California law unless the permit said something like "You must comply to all the conditions on your application."
The lack of a restriction printed on the permit simply means that there is no criminal penalty for violation of such restrictions.

Your IA can still pull your permit for letting go of a Taco Bell log in his restroom.

The legal question that your attorney will need to handle is the two opposite situations mentioned above:
Permit is invalid while consuming alcohol.
Defensive shoot happens while alcohol is still in the system, but below the legal limit.

The presence of alcohol is evidence that it has been consumed, which invalidates the permit, but there is no evidence that the subject was carrying WHILE consuming alcohol and it was not being consumed during the defensive shoot.

IA will most likely yank the permit... the legal question for your attorney becomes whether or not the permit remained valid between the time of the alleged violation and the revocation of the permit.

Either way.... done carrying in California for a very long time, and the revocation may impact issue by other states.


Honestly, as tough as it is to get a permit in CA, the laws surrounding actual carry are not very strict and, like issue, leave a lot of conditions up to the IA.

Most other states are far more clear and specific... and quite frequently, carry in ANY establishment that serves alcohol is prohibited.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #55  
Old 05-09-2017, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 38Special View Post
You can see your own edits, not others.

So your saying someone else edited his post?????????????????????
Bit of a stretch don't you think?
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
The lack of a restriction printed on the permit simply means that there is no criminal penalty for violation of such restrictions.

Your IA can still pull your permit for letting go of a Taco Bell log in his restroom.

The legal question that your attorney will need to handle is the two opposite situations mentioned above:
Permit is invalid while consuming alcohol.
Defensive shoot happens while alcohol is still in the system, but below the legal limit.

The presence of alcohol is evidence that it has been consumed, which invalidates the permit, but there is no evidence that the subject was carrying WHILE consuming alcohol and it was not being consumed during the defensive shoot.

IA will most likely yank the permit... the legal question for your attorney becomes whether or not the permit remained valid between the time of the alleged violation and the revocation of the permit.

Either way.... done carrying in California for a very long time, and the revocation may impact issue by other states.


Honestly, as tough as it is to get a permit in CA, the laws surrounding actual carry are not very strict and, like issue, leave a lot of conditions up to the IA.

Most other states are far more clear and specific... and quite frequently, carry in ANY establishment that serves alcohol is prohibited.
Pretty much, Course I don't drink so not really an issue for my attorney. And my IA training was where I learned about the law or lack there of I quoted above. Captain John preferred we actually know the laws and when we can get in trouble not scare us with vague urban legend and what other counties do.

I have no doubt my IA would pull a permit for someone found drinking and carrying or drinking and driving. And if you can't go into a bar without carrying you need to find a better bar.



Arizona allows anyone to Concealed Carry but requires a permit to carry in a bar. Odd that one.
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Originally Posted by epilepticninja View Post
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We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls.


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  #56  
Old 05-09-2017, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
So your saying someone else edited his post?????????????????????
Bit of a stretch don't you think?
Krusty was thinking we could all see his edits, when only he can see them (on his posts)

Quote:
Arizona allows anyone to Concealed Carry but requires a permit to carry in a bar. Odd that one.
Ya... New Mexico is tougher than CA as well.

Even using some of the apps it can be hard to distill. One of the apps indicates that you can't carry in a hotel in NM, but clearer reading seems to cover either unlicensed OC, or in a hotel bar (I don't recall, it's been a while since I looked it up and since I have a license that is valid in NM, and avoid bars, it's NBD)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #57  
Old 05-09-2017, 8:41 PM
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Ya... New Mexico is tougher than CA as well.

Even using some of the apps it can be hard to distill. One of the apps indicates that you can't carry in a hotel in NM, but clearer reading seems to cover either unlicensed OC, or in a hotel bar (I don't recall, it's been a while since I looked it up and since I have a license that is valid in NM, and avoid bars, it's NBD)
Nothing good ever happens in New Mexico either. LOL Only reason to go the New Mexico anymore is if you are driving to Texas.
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Originally Posted by epilepticninja View Post
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We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls.


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  #58  
Old 05-09-2017, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
So your saying someone else edited his post?????????????????????
Bit of a stretch don't you think?
.
How the hell did you come to that stupid conclusion?
He implied that anyone can see what edits he made. ONLY THE POSTER CAN SEE HIS OR HER EDITS.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 38Special View Post
How the hell did you come to that stupid conclusion?
He implied that anyone can see what edits he made. ONLY THE POSTER CAN SEE HIS OR HER EDITS.
Ahem.

A few others can see all the edits. It's seldom worth the effort.
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Old 05-10-2017, 2:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Actually that law says conditions must be written on the permit. The restrictions on bars and alcohol are not written on my permit.

Therefore logic would say they don't apply to me. The terms you refer to are actually on my application not the permit.

Applying conditions printed on the application appears to be a violation of California law unless the permit said something like "You must comply to all the conditions on your application."
Quote:
Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
And my IA training was where I learned about the law or lack there of I quoted above. Captain John preferred we actually know the laws and when we can get in trouble not scare us with vague urban legend and what other counties do.

I have no doubt my IA would pull a permit for someone found drinking and carrying or drinking and driving.
I have no doubt that your impression of what the law says is honest and what you think you have been taught. But if we are going to claim the law says something, we should see if the law does say that. (CA PEN 26200, http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...0.&lawCode=PEN):
Quote:
26200.
(a) A license issued pursuant to this article may include any reasonable restrictions or conditions that the issuing authority deems warranted, including restrictions as to the time, place, manner, and circumstances under which the licensee may carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

(b) Any restrictions imposed pursuant to subdivision (a) shall be indicated on any license issued.
It's important to pay attention to what that section allows and requires as well as what it does not prohibit (such as restrictions and conditions on the application).

Also, Section 26175 provides insight into the legality of the restrictions and conditions on the application. http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...5.&lawCode=PEN

Best.
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Old 05-10-2017, 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Ahem.

A few others can see all the edits. It's seldom worth the effort.
You can the line that says it was edited but can YOU see someone else's edits that were made?
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Old 05-10-2017, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Nothing good ever happens in New Mexico either. LOL Only reason to go the New Mexico anymore is if you are driving to Texas.
The White Sands Missile Park, Alamogordo space museum, and Nuclear museum are all worth a trip, not to mention Carlsbad Caverns, and the 2 days a year it's open, a visit to the Trinity site should be at least a once in a lifetime thing.

But ya... other than that, there's not a lot of difference between New Mexico and Old Mexico, except I think more people speak English and they're more polite in Old Mexico.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 05-10-2017, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by 38Special View Post
You can the line that says it was edited but can YOU see someone else's edits that were made?
Mods and admin can see edits, reverse edits, and even un-delete posts.

That's one reason it is fruitless to go back and delete all of your posts if you get pissed and leave a forum... once the mods notice, they can restore them so you aren't removing any value.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 38Special View Post
You can the line that says it was edited but can YOU see someone else's edits that were made?
If he wants to have a bloody mary while carrying that's his business. Why are you so worked up about it? Don't like it? Don't do it.



As for the OP, I had dinner last night at Cooks Corner and in my opinion it is without a doubt a bar.
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MotoFahren View Post
If he wants to have a bloody mary while carrying that's his business. Why are you so worked up about it? Don't like it? Don't do it.



As for the OP, I had dinner last night at Cooks Corner and in my opinion it is without a doubt a bar.
Yeah, it is.

Used to be a bikers hangout. Now it's a hangout for Dentists and Doctors on their Harleys.
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Old 05-11-2017, 1:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
I have no doubt that your impression of what the law says is honest and what you think you have been taught. But if we are going to claim the law says something, we should see if the law does say that. (CA PEN 26200, http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...0.&lawCode=PEN):
It's important to pay attention to what that section allows and requires as well as what it does not prohibit (such as restrictions and conditions on the application).

Also, Section 26175 provides insight into the legality of the restrictions and conditions on the application. http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...5.&lawCode=PEN

Best.
Great advise, to bad you didn't follow it.

Now re read this

Section 26200 covers the laws requirements regarding restrictions and conditions. 26200 (b) is pretty clear.

Quote:
26200.
(a) A license issued pursuant to this article may include any reasonable restrictions or conditions that the issuing authority deems warranted, including restrictions as to the time, place, manner, and circumstances under which the licensee may carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

(b) Any restrictions imposed pursuant to subdivision (a) shall be indicated on any license issued.
Section 26175 addresses creating a uniform application and what the application shall contain

Then please if you would show me where in section 26175 it modifies or nullifies 26200 (B)

Or where it states they can create new restrictions not part of California Law

Quote:
PENAL CODE - PEN
PART 6. CONTROL OF DEADLY WEAPONS [16000 - 34370] ( Part 6 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )
TITLE 4. FIREARMS [23500 - 34370] ( Title 4 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )
DIVISION 5. CARRYING FIREARMS [25300 - 26405] ( Division 5 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

CHAPTER 4. License to Carry A Pistol, Revolver, or Other Firearm Capable of Being Concealed Upon the Person [26150 - 26225] ( Chapter 4 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

26175.
(a) (1) Applications for licenses and applications for amendments to licenses under this article shall be uniform throughout the state, upon forms to be prescribed by the Attorney General.
(2) The Attorney General shall convene a committee composed of one representative of the California State Sheriffs’ Association, one representative of the California Police Chiefs Association, and one representative of the Department of Justice to review, and, as deemed appropriate, revise the standard application form for licenses. The committee shall meet for this purpose if two of the committee’s members deem that necessary.
(3) (A) The Attorney General shall develop a uniform license that may be used as indicia of proof of licensure throughout the state.
(B) The Attorney General shall approve the use of licenses issued by local agencies that contain all the information required in subdivision (i), including a recent photograph of the applicant, and are deemed to be in substantial compliance with standards developed by the committee described in subparagraph (C), if developed, as they relate to the physical dimensions and general appearance of the licenses. The Attorney General shall retain exemplars of approved licenses and shall maintain a list of agencies issuing local licenses. Approved licenses may be used as indicia of proof of licensure under this chapter in lieu of the uniform license developed by the Attorney General.
(C) A committee composed of two representatives of the California State Sheriffs’ Association, two representatives of the California Police Chiefs Association, and one representative of the Department of Justice shall convene to review and revise, as the committee deems appropriate, the design standard for licenses issued by local agencies that may be used as indicia of proof of licensure throughout the state, provided that the design standard meets the requirements of subparagraph (B). The committee shall meet for this purpose if two of the committee’s members deem it necessary.
(b) The application shall include a section summarizing the requirements of state law that result in the automatic denial of a license.
(c) The standard application form for licenses described in subdivision (a) shall require information from the applicant, including, but not limited to, the name, occupation, residence, and business address of the applicant, the applicant’s age, height, weight, color of eyes and hair, and reason for desiring a license to carry the weapon.
(d) Applications for licenses shall be filed in writing and signed by the applicant.
(e) Applications for amendments to licenses shall be filed in writing and signed by the applicant, and shall state what type of amendment is sought pursuant to Section 26215 and the reason for desiring the amendment.
(f) The forms shall contain a provision whereby the applicant attests to the truth of statements contained in the application.
(g) An applicant shall not be required to complete any additional application or form for a license, or to provide any information other than that necessary to complete the standard application form described in subdivision (a), except to clarify or interpret information provided by the applicant on the standard application form.
(h) The standard application form described in subdivision (a) is deemed to be a local form expressly exempt from the requirements of the Administrative Procedure Act (Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 11340) of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of the Government Code).
(i) Any license issued upon the application shall set forth the licensee’s name, occupation, residence and business address, the licensee’s age, height, weight, color of eyes and hair, and the reason for desiring a license to carry the weapon, and shall, in addition, contain a description of the weapon or weapons authorized to be carried, giving the name of the manufacturer, the serial number, and the caliber. The license issued to the licensee may be laminated.
(Amended by Stats. 2016, Ch. 645, Sec. 1. Effective January 1, 2017.)
Are you ASSUMING that is what this says??

Quote:
Section b) The application shall include a section summarizing the requirements of state law that result in the automatic denial of a license.
Because I see nowhere that is says the Attorney General can make up his own laws nor does it say restrictions and conditions on the application apply to the license.

Please show me where you read this insight your are referring to? Show me where in Sec 26175 it says restrictions and conditions printed on the APPLICATION do not need to conform with Section 26200 to be legally enforceable.
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Old 05-11-2017, 2:00 PM
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No matter what anyone's opinion is, here's what California has to say about Cook's Corner:

License Type: 47 - ON-SALE GENERAL EATING PLACE
License Type: 58 - CATERER PERMIT

They also allow children. They also have kitchen facilities and a defined eating space.

A bar in California is defined as a pubic premise “maintained and operated for the selling or serving of alcoholic beverages to the public for consumption on the premises, and in which food shall not be sold or served to the public as in a bona fide public eating place, but upon which premises food products may be sold or served incidentally to the sale or service of alcoholic beverages, in accordance with rules prescribed by the department.”

They are a general eating place and caterer licensed as such by the ABC.

From the ABC: License classification - 47 On-Sale General for Bona Fide Public Eating Place

Getting back to the OP, since this is how the state classifies Cook's Corner I would have ZERO problem carrying there while having breakfast in the eating area.
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Old 05-11-2017, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by maggie06 View Post
Don't overthink it. As my instructor put it, (21 years of age or over to get in, then no carrying).

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I have to agree with this. If kids can be there then it is not a bar as it's primary function.
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Old 05-11-2017, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
No matter what anyone's opinion is, here's what California has to say about Cook's Corner:

License Type: 47 - ON-SALE GENERAL EATING PLACE
License Type: 58 - CATERER PERMIT

They also allow children. They also have kitchen facilities and a defined eating space.

A bar in California is defined as a pubic premise “maintained and operated for the selling or serving of alcoholic beverages to the public for consumption on the premises, and in which food shall not be sold or served to the public as in a bona fide public eating place, but upon which premises food products may be sold or served incidentally to the sale or service of alcoholic beverages, in accordance with rules prescribed by the department.”

They are a general eating place and caterer licensed as such by the ABC.

From the ABC: License classification - 47 On-Sale General for Bona Fide Public Eating Place

Getting back to the OP, since this is how the state classifies Cook's Corner I would have ZERO problem carrying there while having breakfast in the eating area.
This seems the best-informed answer.

I can't say an issuing agency would agree, and I don't know how they could be compelled to agree, but it sure seems that if an establishment is operating within the requirements of it's specific liquor/beer/wine license, a "License classification - 47 On-Sale General for Bona Fide Public Eating Place" would not be a "a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption". See also shenecke's post http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...1&postcount=36

ETA That license type difference also seems to support the 'Only 21 or older' as a good identification of a 'bar'.
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Old 05-11-2017, 4:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Mods and admin can see edits, reverse edits, and even un-delete posts.

That's one reason it is fruitless to go back and delete all of your posts if you get pissed and leave a forum... once the mods notice, they can restore them so you aren't removing any value.
Correct.

Although, if someone really wants his/her stuff gone so badly, I know I'm not inclined to restore much, if any.
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Old 05-11-2017, 4:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
[B]
Please show me where you read this insight your are referring to? Show me where in Sec 26175 it says restrictions and conditions printed on the APPLICATION do not need to conform with Section 26200 to be legally enforceable.
I used to strongly maintain the same position.

Our lovely Mr Damon Gardner's disposition strongly suggests that at least one CA judge thinks the app restrictions are incorporated.

I still think that's wrong, but a Real Authority has acted to force a change in what I think is true.
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Old 05-11-2017, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
I can't say an issuing agency would agree, and I don't know how they could be compelled to agree...
Yeah I'm not sure either, but I'm pretty confident if anything ever came down it's a pretty good argument for the guy eating pancakes there on a Saturday. Who knows in this screwy state...
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Old 05-11-2017, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
No matter what anyone's opinion is, here's what California has to say about Cook's Corner:

License Type: 47 - ON-SALE GENERAL EATING PLACE
License Type: 58 - CATERER PERMIT

They also allow children. They also have kitchen facilities and a defined eating space.

A bar in California is defined as a pubic premise “maintained and operated for the selling or serving of alcoholic beverages to the public for consumption on the premises, and in which food shall not be sold or served to the public as in a bona fide public eating place, but upon which premises food products may be sold or served incidentally to the sale or service of alcoholic beverages, in accordance with rules prescribed by the department.”

They are a general eating place and caterer licensed as such by the ABC.

From the ABC: License classification - 47 On-Sale General for Bona Fide Public Eating Place

Getting back to the OP, since this is how the state classifies Cook's Corner I would have ZERO problem carrying there while having breakfast in the eating area.
Thanks for looking that info up!
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Old 05-11-2017, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by baggss View Post
Thanks for looking that info up!
You bet. You can look up my contractor's license online so I figured this must be a matter of public record like that and it is. Even with all that, to me (no matter what kind of tough-guy name they want to give themselves) they are just like a Chili's or any other place that serves food.... and a LOT of booze. I did some reading on the ABC website today and evidently it's much easier to get the "47" license in one regard because of zoning and such, but you then open yourself up to food inspections because you have to have a "real" kitchen with range hoods and grease traps etc.

Still, knowing the place and the atmosphere I would defer to common sense and I would carry there at 10am, but I would not carry there at 10pm. But that's just me and my 2-bit opinion.
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Old 05-11-2017, 7:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
I used to strongly maintain the same position.

Our lovely Mr Damon Gardner's disposition strongly suggests that at least one CA judge thinks the app restrictions are incorporated.

I still think that's wrong, but a Real Authority has acted to force a change in what I think is true.
Not true, you still know what the law says, the fact the state might enforce laws that don't exist doesn't change the words. But that is not reverent to my post which was in response to the guy who said I didn't know what the law said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
I have no doubt that your impression of what the law says is honest and what you think you have been taught. But if we are going to claim the law says something, we should see if the law does say that. (CA PEN 26200, http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...0.&lawCode=PEN):
It's important to pay attention to what that section allows and requires as well as what it does not prohibit (such as restrictions and conditions on the application).

Also, Section 26175 provides insight into the legality of the restrictions and conditions on the application. http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...5.&lawCode=PEN

Best.
You and I have discussed this before. What the law says and what California acts like it says are often different.

The well known fact the California DA's and the 9th circuit choose to selectively enforce the law and actually make up their own laws does not change what the law says.

I don't suggest anyone drinks and carries or carries in a bar. Anyone telling me that I don't know what the law says should be ready to prove it.

It's bad enough when Kamala Harris makes up what the law says, it's worse when CalGuns members become her parrot.

We can say what the law is, We can say how California, or the courts intrepid the law or in this case seem to have morphed the law into something else.

But we can not say the law says something it doesn't, unless your on the 9th circuit.

Still waiting for someone to show me where in section 26175 it modifies or nullifies 26200 (B)

If you can't show where it does then it doesn't.
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Old 05-11-2017, 7:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Still waiting for someone to show me where in section 26175 it modifies or nullifies 26200 (B)

If you can't show where it does then it doesn't.
Clearly we both know it does not. That doesn't mean your IA won't revoke that permit at whim "just because" the place you were in looks like a bar to him/her.
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Old 05-11-2017, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by baggss View Post
Clearly we both know it does not. That doesn't mean your IA won't revoke that permit at whim "just because" the place you were in looks like a bar to him/her.
But the legal issue at hand is that at least one judge considered that revocation to be retroactive to the time of the incident and ruled that the person was carrying illegally.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:43 PM
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Ask them what type of ABC license they have. If it is a type 47 and requires food you should be ok. If their primary purpose was to serve alcohol they wouldn't have the food requirement. If it is a type 48(or other that doesn't require food) then it is a definite no go. I'm guessing they have a type 47 because that's one of the ones that allows children while food is being served. Good luck.
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Old 05-14-2017, 2:13 PM
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I'm at Cook's once a month or so. This would seem to be an easy call for me. I wouldn't even consider the fact that Cooks is anything other than a bar.

FYI, it is infested with local, State, and Federal LEO due to the biker culture. This comes from personal knowledge, not third-hand OC myth. While that isn't normally an issue, it is if you are looking to be used as an example in the inevitable "CCW Issuance is Out of Control" articles.
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Old 05-14-2017, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ocguy31 View Post
I'm at Cook's once a month or so. This would seem to be an easy call for me. I wouldn't even consider the fact that Cooks is anything other than a bar.

FYI, it is infested with local, State, and Federal LEO due to the biker culture. This comes from personal knowledge, not third-hand OC myth. While that isn't normally an issue, it is if you are looking to be used as an example in the inevitable "CCW Issuance is Out of Control" articles.
Do you go there in the mornings on weekends, in the afternoon, or in the evening? I haven't been there in the evening, but I could definitely see a shift from the morning crowd to the noon crowd. I'm assuming there's an even larger swing once you get into the evening.

I went this morning and rode out with my wife and parents for some mothers day riding and brunch. There was so much of a backup on food orders that it took us an hour to get our meals. It only took a minute or two to get our bloody marys :-)
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