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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California |
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#41
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Actually there is no law in California that says you can not CCW in a bar. There is a law in California which says all restrictions to the CCW must be printed on the permit. So technically having a CCW in a bar in California is not a violation of California law per say unless it says so on your license.
The problem is the restrictions on the application are part of the agreement you made with your IA. Violate them and your CCW could be revoked by your IA. There is even a pretty well none case where a CCW holder had been drinking, had an incident later which was ruled a good shoot however he was still charged and either plead or was convicted of carrying concealed without a permit based as far as we can tell on the idea that his permit was invalid anytime he was in violation of his agreement with his IA. Pretty weird, but this is California. So what is at risk could be loss of permit and charges of carrying without a permit.
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Only slaves don't need guns We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls. What doesn't kill me, better run |
#42
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The one thing worse than defeat is surrender. |
#43
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If your permit has a condition printed on it the permit is only valid while you are meeting the condition. If it says you may not wear a red hat and carry... then if you put on a red hat and carry concealed it is as if you do not have a permit while doing both, and if stopped, would be charged with carrying without a permit, because your permit was not valid while you had the red hat on. If you are wearing a red hat, decide you want to carry, take the red hat off, and strap on your ccw... you are good to go... when you want to wear the red hat again though you have to unstrap your ccw first. I seem to remember that case or one very similar to it. The guy had a permit that said he couldn't carry while drinking. He did use his ccw AFTER he had been drinking... but he had a good lawyer and kept his yap shut, nobody could prove he was carrying before the shoot, while actually drinking. He got sort of lucky/smart (if you can call carrying after spending time drinking "smart"). The shoot itself was ruled good though. I think his permit still got yanked though. Sheriff's discretion and apparently they no longer considered him a good risk. No proof needed for that. So, yes, there is a law that says you can't carry in contravention of the terms of your permit, so for you personally, whatever your permit says, essentially has the force of law behind it. Even if it's not "on the books".
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The one thing worse than defeat is surrender. Last edited by bruss01; 05-09-2017 at 2:12 PM.. |
#44
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So ya, he did not mention carrying, but simply and undeniably implied it. |
#45
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He adds that if he were to carry, then he wouldn't be able to enjoy a drink. It's there, go back and read... I already quoted it once. His question is not about drinking while carrying. It's about stopping for breakfast in a place that also serves alcohol... and calls itself a bar. Hey, you can get a glass of wine at Marie Calendars... along with your waffles for Sunday Brunch. No problemo. And you can carry while you eat waffles at MC... just forgo the wine until you are no longer carrying if that's a condition of your permit. That's a separate question than "can I just eat some damn waffles while carrying, in a place that calls itself a bar - no drinks". That is what he's asking. You're crossing over the two separate things.
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The one thing worse than defeat is surrender. Last edited by bruss01; 05-09-2017 at 2:22 PM.. |
#46
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#47
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edit: The easiest way to tell this one would probably be to look for permits on the walls somewhere. I'll keep an eye out this weekend. My expectation, however, is that they're over 51% profits from alcohol considering the bar is larger than the kitchen. Last edited by Krusty; 05-09-2017 at 3:01 PM.. |
#48
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Therefore logic would say they don't apply to me. The terms you refer to are actually on my application not the permit. Applying conditions printed on the application appears to be a violation of California law unless the permit said something like "You must comply to all the conditions on your application." We have no clear court cases other then the guy who pled or was convicted of carrying without a permit because he was drinking at the time.We also don't know if the restriction was printed on his permit. However I totally agree with you that California does not enforce the laws as written they enforce them as they see fit and failure to follow the conditions on the application could easily land someone in a big legal mess. Bess to error on the safe side and not become the Anti's next example.
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Only slaves don't need guns We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls. What doesn't kill me, better run Last edited by 71MUSTY; 05-09-2017 at 3:15 PM.. |
#49
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It is clear you not only edited your first post but you are also trying to make it look as if you never carry while there with a bloody mary.......
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#50
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edit: Found a nifty feature! If I click on the "last edited by" link, it shows the changes. My change was adding a link to the Yelp for Cook's corner. 1 minute later I changed the sentence structure of the link to the Yelp review. Last edited by Krusty; 05-09-2017 at 5:17 PM.. |
#51
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Last edited by 38Special; 05-09-2017 at 5:35 PM.. |
#52
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Was gonna say... the "real" bikers used to hang out at Angels or Starting Gate.
But being in an RC, I spent a lot of time at Cook's.
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- Rich |
#54
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Your IA can still pull your permit for letting go of a Taco Bell log in his restroom. The legal question that your attorney will need to handle is the two opposite situations mentioned above: Permit is invalid while consuming alcohol. Defensive shoot happens while alcohol is still in the system, but below the legal limit. The presence of alcohol is evidence that it has been consumed, which invalidates the permit, but there is no evidence that the subject was carrying WHILE consuming alcohol and it was not being consumed during the defensive shoot. IA will most likely yank the permit... the legal question for your attorney becomes whether or not the permit remained valid between the time of the alleged violation and the revocation of the permit. Either way.... done carrying in California for a very long time, and the revocation may impact issue by other states. Honestly, as tough as it is to get a permit in CA, the laws surrounding actual carry are not very strict and, like issue, leave a lot of conditions up to the IA. Most other states are far more clear and specific... and quite frequently, carry in ANY establishment that serves alcohol is prohibited.
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- Rich |
#55
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So your saying someone else edited his post????????????????????? Bit of a stretch don't you think? Quote:
I have no doubt my IA would pull a permit for someone found drinking and carrying or drinking and driving. And if you can't go into a bar without carrying you need to find a better bar. Arizona allows anyone to Concealed Carry but requires a permit to carry in a bar. Odd that one.
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Only slaves don't need guns We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls. What doesn't kill me, better run |
#56
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Even using some of the apps it can be hard to distill. One of the apps indicates that you can't carry in a hotel in NM, but clearer reading seems to cover either unlicensed OC, or in a hotel bar (I don't recall, it's been a while since I looked it up and since I have a license that is valid in NM, and avoid bars, it's NBD)
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- Rich |
#57
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Only slaves don't need guns We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls. What doesn't kill me, better run |
#58
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He implied that anyone can see what edits he made. ONLY THE POSTER CAN SEE HIS OR HER EDITS. |
#59
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A few others can see all the edits. It's seldom worth the effort.
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#60
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Also, Section 26175 provides insight into the legality of the restrictions and conditions on the application. http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...5.&lawCode=PEN Best. |
#61
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You can the line that says it was edited but can YOU see someone else's edits that were made?
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#62
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But ya... other than that, there's not a lot of difference between New Mexico and Old Mexico, except I think more people speak English and they're more polite in Old Mexico.
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- Rich |
#63
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That's one reason it is fruitless to go back and delete all of your posts if you get pissed and leave a forum... once the mods notice, they can restore them so you aren't removing any value.
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- Rich |
#64
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As for the OP, I had dinner last night at Cooks Corner and in my opinion it is without a doubt a bar.
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"Simplify, then add lightness." - Colin Chapman |
#65
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Used to be a bikers hangout. Now it's a hangout for Dentists and Doctors on their Harleys. |
#66
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Now re read this Section 26200 covers the laws requirements regarding restrictions and conditions. 26200 (b) is pretty clear. Quote:
Then please if you would show me where in section 26175 it modifies or nullifies 26200 (B) Or where it states they can create new restrictions not part of California Law Quote:
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Please show me where you read this insight your are referring to? Show me where in Sec 26175 it says restrictions and conditions printed on the APPLICATION do not need to conform with Section 26200 to be legally enforceable.
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Only slaves don't need guns We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls. What doesn't kill me, better run Last edited by 71MUSTY; 05-11-2017 at 1:46 PM.. |
#67
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No matter what anyone's opinion is, here's what California has to say about Cook's Corner:
License Type: 47 - ON-SALE GENERAL EATING PLACE License Type: 58 - CATERER PERMIT They also allow children. They also have kitchen facilities and a defined eating space. A bar in California is defined as a pubic premise “maintained and operated for the selling or serving of alcoholic beverages to the public for consumption on the premises, and in which food shall not be sold or served to the public as in a bona fide public eating place, but upon which premises food products may be sold or served incidentally to the sale or service of alcoholic beverages, in accordance with rules prescribed by the department.” They are a general eating place and caterer licensed as such by the ABC. From the ABC: License classification - 47 On-Sale General for Bona Fide Public Eating Place Getting back to the OP, since this is how the state classifies Cook's Corner I would have ZERO problem carrying there while having breakfast in the eating area.
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Buy made in USA whenever possible. |
#68
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I have to agree with this. If kids can be there then it is not a bar as it's primary function.
__________________
"You fickers are all cray cray in my opinion. Non of you have an iQ over 80." - SandyCrotchSurfer aka SandyEggoSurf "News stories and the truth are a bit like fraternal twins. They are related but only vaguely resemble each other." "The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich quick theory of life." - Theodore Roosevelt |
#69
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I can't say an issuing agency would agree, and I don't know how they could be compelled to agree, but it sure seems that if an establishment is operating within the requirements of it's specific liquor/beer/wine license, a "License classification - 47 On-Sale General for Bona Fide Public Eating Place" would not be a "a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption". See also shenecke's post http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...1&postcount=36 ETA That license type difference also seems to support the 'Only 21 or older' as a good identification of a 'bar'.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 05-11-2017 at 4:29 PM.. |
#70
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Although, if someone really wants his/her stuff gone so badly, I know I'm not inclined to restore much, if any.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#71
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Our lovely Mr Damon Gardner's disposition strongly suggests that at least one CA judge thinks the app restrictions are incorporated. I still think that's wrong, but a Real Authority has acted to force a change in what I think is true.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#72
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Yeah I'm not sure either, but I'm pretty confident if anything ever came down it's a pretty good argument for the guy eating pancakes there on a Saturday. Who knows in this screwy state...
__________________
Buy made in USA whenever possible. |
#73
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"The best gun is the one you'll have on you when you need it the most, the one you know how to use, the one that goes BANG every single time you pull the trigger. Whether that gun cost you $349 or $1,100 it's worth every penny if it saves your life, or the life of someone you love.” -Tim Schmit, CCW Magazine July 2015 NRA Lifetime Member : CalGuns Lifetime Member : GOA Lifetime Member |
#74
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You bet. You can look up my contractor's license online so I figured this must be a matter of public record like that and it is. Even with all that, to me (no matter what kind of tough-guy name they want to give themselves) they are just like a Chili's or any other place that serves food.... and a LOT of booze. I did some reading on the ABC website today and evidently it's much easier to get the "47" license in one regard because of zoning and such, but you then open yourself up to food inspections because you have to have a "real" kitchen with range hoods and grease traps etc.
Still, knowing the place and the atmosphere I would defer to common sense and I would carry there at 10am, but I would not carry there at 10pm. But that's just me and my 2-bit opinion.
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Buy made in USA whenever possible. |
#75
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The well known fact the California DA's and the 9th circuit choose to selectively enforce the law and actually make up their own laws does not change what the law says. I don't suggest anyone drinks and carries or carries in a bar. Anyone telling me that I don't know what the law says should be ready to prove it. It's bad enough when Kamala Harris makes up what the law says, it's worse when CalGuns members become her parrot. We can say what the law is, We can say how California, or the courts intrepid the law or in this case seem to have morphed the law into something else. But we can not say the law says something it doesn't, unless your on the 9th circuit. Still waiting for someone to show me where in section 26175 it modifies or nullifies 26200 (B) If you can't show where it does then it doesn't.
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Only slaves don't need guns We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls. What doesn't kill me, better run |
#76
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Clearly we both know it does not. That doesn't mean your IA won't revoke that permit at whim "just because" the place you were in looks like a bar to him/her.
__________________
"The best gun is the one you'll have on you when you need it the most, the one you know how to use, the one that goes BANG every single time you pull the trigger. Whether that gun cost you $349 or $1,100 it's worth every penny if it saves your life, or the life of someone you love.” -Tim Schmit, CCW Magazine July 2015 NRA Lifetime Member : CalGuns Lifetime Member : GOA Lifetime Member |
#77
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But the legal issue at hand is that at least one judge considered that revocation to be retroactive to the time of the incident and ruled that the person was carrying illegally.
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- Rich |
#78
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Ask them what type of ABC license they have. If it is a type 47 and requires food you should be ok. If their primary purpose was to serve alcohol they wouldn't have the food requirement. If it is a type 48(or other that doesn't require food) then it is a definite no go. I'm guessing they have a type 47 because that's one of the ones that allows children while food is being served. Good luck.
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#79
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I'm at Cook's once a month or so. This would seem to be an easy call for me. I wouldn't even consider the fact that Cooks is anything other than a bar.
FYI, it is infested with local, State, and Federal LEO due to the biker culture. This comes from personal knowledge, not third-hand OC myth. While that isn't normally an issue, it is if you are looking to be used as an example in the inevitable "CCW Issuance is Out of Control" articles. |
#80
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I went this morning and rode out with my wife and parents for some mothers day riding and brunch. There was so much of a backup on food orders that it took us an hour to get our meals. It only took a minute or two to get our bloody marys :-) |
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